@NutsAboutAmiga

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In the end Windows7/8 is slower to boot on a spinning disk then AmigaOS is on a spinning disk, simply because AmigaOS has less data to load.

I don't use OS4 any more but it wasn't the case for me, on a hard disk OS4 seemed to boot a lot slower after Update 3 (I remember lots of other saying the same here at the time), I think it was around 1 min or so, my Win 7 machine actually beat it by 10 seconds or so, so the old "it boots instantly" thing was no longer true.

(Yes this was disabling U-Boot waits and kb checks etc.).

@agami

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1. It should be easier to install, upgrade, uninstall software than on MacOS X with its App store, and the uninstalled software should not leave behind any trash. 2. It should be easier to manage multiple running applications and to switch between the applications that all of the other OSs.

I don't know about MocOs's App Store but I'm going to assume works in the same way as the Android Play store. In which case... how on earth can you get any easier? Probably best not start with simplifying things that don't need simplifying to begin with.

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3. It should be easier to manage your files on the system and easier to exchange them with others on the same or other OSs.

Ahh yes the good old file system. I love it. But we're a dying breed. I have my media sotred in a hierarchical manor, logically sorted into folders. But most pople are too lazy to do this, so we have the 'library' system.

Things are complicated by the fact that media is sorted in a variety of places these days; bringing us on to your next point..

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4. It should be easier to configure wired and wireless networking and have entire visibility across all your networked and networkable devices.

On Windows I plug my network cable into my outer and. Um. I have networking. If I want to connect to a wireless network, I choose the network I want to connect to and enter the password. Again... how do you expect to make things any simpler? ..

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5. I should be easier to connect to various peripherals and have true plug and play, i.e. True transparent driver management.

On Windows I plug in a device and it automatically installs the device driver. If it doesn't already have the correct one it downloads it, all automatically. At an OS-level you can't get any simpler than that. The only think you could do would be to embed drivers on flash memory in the hardware itself. But you'd need to convince hardware manufacturers to do so...

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6. It should be easier for vendors to write and manage drivers for peripherals.

OK that's a nice goal - how?

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7. It should be easier and quicker to write and package native applications than it is on other OSs.

You'll have a hard time creating anything as easy to use as Visual Studio

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8. It should be easier to publish and monetise applications than it is on the other OSs.

I'll give you that one. The amount of crap Google make you go through to get an app on the play store is quite irritating.

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9. It should be easier to extend the functions of the OS than it is with the other OSs.

An OS should have the functions it needs to operate the system in the first place!

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10. It should be easier to port the OS to other ISAs than it is on Linux. This does not equal opening the source.

OK. Again an interesting goal - though again... how would you go about that?

@All

Try to run Window$ / OSX / Linux on a, say SAM440EP-FLEX @ 733 Mhz, then we see what happens ...

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6. It should be easier for vendors to write and manage drivers for peripherals.

So you put them into rom ? And how do you patch them ? Using setpatch() ?

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@Massi

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Try to run Window$ / OSX / Linux on a, say SAM440EP-FLEX @ 733 Mhz, then we see what happens ...

i have run windows on by todays standards similarly low definition hardware like p2/266mhz or p3/600mhz, and to your astonishment i must admit it was pretty usable for what i needed it, lets just name semi professional video editing. i seriously doubt os4 offers today better overall experience and really wonder how one can still insist on it.

@danwood

Yes but do you have UEFI / EFI or do your PC have BIOS?
What type hard drive do you use in your PC, is it a hybrid, SSD, or normal spinning disk (no hybrid) 5000 rpm, 9000 rpm or 10000 rpm disk?

On Hybrid disk, windows push the most used files into SSD cache of hybrid disk, it does a lot of tricks to optimize, I was comparing it with spinning disks, because then windows can't do this things.

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@fishy_fis

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fishy_fis wrote: @Severin While I agree with the basic jist of what you're saying, I must ask.... Windows slow by what measure?

Try running windows on a single core cpu upto 1.8ghz, it will crwal. windows needs an awful lot of grunt to make it usable. instant isn't instant when it takes more than 10 seconds to open a program, then makes you wait ages while you watch an hourglass or coloured disc spinning for it to slowly draw the window a bit at a time. not everyone has the latest hardware that is required to get the best from other OS's.

Back when my mac was still supported, every update made it run slower compared to amiga updates that made no change to speed or increased it. Very rarely did an amiga update slow anything down except boot time as new modules were added.

As for booting speed, Last month I had to borrow a laptop with win7 on it, it took 10 minutes to boot and no it wasn't updating anything and yes it probably needed maintenance but a good OS shouldn't require a user to fine tune or maintain anything, housekeeping should be done by the OS.

Simply put look at the cpu power modern OS's (windows & mac mostly) need to be responsive...

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wawa wrote: ok, but application binary compatibility needs to be kept, right?

Absolutely not, and that's exactly the problem. Doing a new 68k OS from scratch properly, requires sacrificing compatibility completely. You can't do this right, and keep it compatible. Keeping AOS compatibility locks you into the mess that you're looking to get rid of.

Writing a new 68k OS from scratch that's better than AOS in every way isn't particularly hard. Getting it to be faster than AOS isn't particularly hard. The big question is: What are you going to run on it? Who's going to write all the software?

My ideal would be to also develop new applications from scratch. Not simply ports, but properly designed, well implemented and well optimized 68k software, and that's extremely unlikely to happen.

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@fishy_fis

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fishy_fis wrote: @NutsAboutAmiga The claim, ergo my response, was about Windows being slower than amiga os. Doesn't matter if a system is using uboot, bios, uefi, or whatever. The suggestion that Windows is slow is just plain wrong.

I never claimed it was slower than amiga os. My point is that it's relativly slower, it needs more power to get decent responce times out of the system.

I have used average windows installtions on average hardware, typical non-expert end user systems and it's nowhere as responsive as amiga os.

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Also, you do realise you can tune a bios right?

The average end user won't go near bois.

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Visit the Official OS4 Support Site for more help.

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@agami

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There is an old adage in product development and marketing; To get people to switch from a current product to a new product, where they are not generally dissatisfied with the existing product, the new product must be ten times (10x) better.

The only area I can think of where a ten-fold improvement is possible is in the area of complexity: it wouldn't be that difficult reduce the complexity of a system like Windows to one-tenth without reducing the capabilities for the average user. Most large software applications contain a huge amount of code that provides functionality only used by a small percentage of users, but everyone has to deal with the extra complexity whether it benefits them or not.

OS4 is even less complex than one-tenth of Windows, but it's not providing the capabilities required by the average user. It would be better to start with a code base that already has the necessary capabilities and then reduce the complexity than to try adding capabilities to OS4. It's easier to remove code than write it.

Your other ideas are good, but even together they may not be enough.

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@danwood

UEFI vs BIOS, boot speed Windows 8.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJFXKNN-oIk#t=77

With UEFI, they cut out all things that where no longer necessary, like foppy drivers, ps2 etc, etc, every thing is trimmed down and improved.

https://www.happyassassin.net/2014/01/25/uefi-boot-how-does-that-actually-work-then/

The AmigaONE-XE is old MB with old Firmware, there is lot has to checked and tested before the boot loader is loaded and starts. (ps2/floppy/ram/etc/etc)

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Just to clarify my PC I used then (I've not really used OS4 since 2012) was a core 2 duo PC with Win 7 and using BIOS yeah, not EFI, and with a SATA hard disk.

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@Thorham

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Writing a new 68k OS from scratch that's better than AOS in every way isn't particularly hard. Getting it to be faster than AOS isn't particularly hard. The big question is: What are you going to run on it? Who's going to write all the software?

exactly. so how does this relate to amiga at all? if you write new incompatible os, the whole software for it, you would be best advised to choose also an appropriate hardware for it, without all the legacy limitations. by all means im not trying to stop you doing this, but this is entirely different subject.

@Severin

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I never claimed it was slower than amiga os. My point is that it's relativly slower

to do what? move windows around? it doenst matter how fast an os is without a software ecosystem it could prove its efficiency with. back in genuine amiga times you could compare doing actual tasks on different computers with what you have been able to achieve. this isnt very much an option for any of the todays ng derivates, perhaps not even for morphos.

and i dont really believe that the functionality doesnt cost speed, i can observe it runing aros on x86 and 68k in comparison. aros can appear fast and efficient on fast hardware, but it doesnt on genuine amiga, especially if you take your time to take detailed look at time spent calling perticular functions. similar example is os4 reaction version of netsurf, being ported now to amiga, im not sure if this is compiler inefficiency, exclusively platform related code or some general issue, but suddenly it occures that it isnt as fast as some have felt running it before on faster machines.

i hope given both above examples, that there is room for improvement in both cases, but subjective experience isnt a fair argument in this discussion.

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@wawa

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wawa wrote: exactly. so how does this relate to amiga at all?

It relates to Amiga by being software written specifically for Amiga hardware. It doesn't get more Amiga than that. It's just not AmigaOS, but that would be a good thing

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wawa wrote: if you write new incompatible os, the whole software for it, you would be best advised to choose also an appropriate hardware for it, without all the legacy limitations.

That's when it stops having to do anything with Amiga. Doing this for up to date platforms is a massive pain anyway, not worth the bother in my opinion.

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wawa wrote: by all means im not trying to stop you doing this, but this is entirely different subject.

Not entirely. I just don't get what's so fantastic about AmigaOS that it would be useful for it to became a leading OS. Seems to me it would be more interesting to somehow get rid of it without replacing it with an Aros/Linux/Bsd/Whatever.

@Thorham

well, bsd and linux are available for amiga and aros has been ported as well, so you may replace your genuine os with it, still it would need some work to surpass the genuine os in many areas.

@wawa

You don' t convince me at all.
Good to make comparisons anyway.

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@danwood

AmigaONE-XE / ATA-100 / Spining disk.

UBOOT 13 sec.
SLB2 bootloader 8 sec.
AmigaOS boot up 46 sec.

Tot 67 sec.

AmigaONE-X1000 / SATA2 / spining disk.

CFE pre-boot process 28 sec.
Amiga ONE-X1000 Boot loader 10 sec.
AmigaOS boot up 15 sec.

tot 53 sec.

Windows7 / SSD / SATA3

UEFI 27 sec (timed until UEFI did not find boot device)
Windows boot 17 sec.

tot 44 sec.

Now there difference in CPU power, types of SATA standards and max read speed being compared, I know if my windows 7 computer was on a spinning disk I can easily add 10 sec to the boot speed.

However it's not bad I give you that.

(WindowsXP used to be coffee break slow running on hardware like AmigaONE-XE. )

Funny that uboot does so well, but I have fine-tuned it, disabled a lot.
If I was able to cut time in CFE down by 10 sec, it won't be so bad.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

i can beat this with my eeepc 701 booting from USB-stick (USB1.0)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGpz5l4pt5I

or back in 2009 with a normal Harddrive

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaylrgIfJ64

AROS boots with a SSD in less than 4sec.

If you disable memory check a full boottime of less than 7sec. is possible.

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@phoenixkonsole

First video:

At 6 sec into video you press the power button, 22/21 you're at GRUB boot loader.
Boot to boot loader 15sec.

At 22 sec in to your video you pressed enter in boot menu,
20 sec i see mouse pointer, so guess grub is finished ~ 2 sec on boot loader maybe.
at 37 you desktop was booted.
AROS boot speed on your eeepc 13 / 15 sec.

tot 30 sec, not bad.

Second video:
At 17 sec in your video you pressed enter in boot menu, at 32 sec you have desktop,
so that 32-17 = 15 sec.

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