@Overflow

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Who are you or I to define what constitute a hobby or enjoyment for others? Or the value of it?

Of course it is a hobby for many. At the end of the day the definition of hobby is fairly broad. The issue AmigaOS 4.x users create, especially owners of the X1000, is when they try to compare their hobby with things like classic cars or other expensive rarities. Having an AmigaOne X1000 as a hobby is hard compare to other hobbies, and could actually be incomparable.

If they just stuck to the definition: An activity done regularly in one's leisure time for pleasure.

The other issue is that there seems to be a little bit of hypocrisy here and there as some individuals who are referring to it as a hobby, are also referring to the possibility of it returning to the main stage as a viable commercial platform. This is a tad autistic. Do they want to "go back to Walbrook or stay with Charlie Babbitt?" So naturally those individuals will paint themselves into the proverbial corner.

People spending large sums of money on other rarities as their hobby do not generally argue for their return into abundance.

And let's say that in our small community most of the members see it as a hobby. Well that scares the rest of us who actually don't want it as a hobby but want a healthy niche commercial platform as a true alternative to the Windows/Mac/Linux ecosystems. If the largest representation of the consumers thinks it's a hobby, then the suppliers will shape their products as a hobby. Wallet democracy.

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All the way, with 68k

@bison

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LIst them (succinctly).

Nice try @bison. I like my feet without bullet wounds in them.

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All the way, with 68k

@agami

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People spending large sums of money on other rarities as their hobby do not generally argue for their return into abundance.

I seriously doubt anyone belives the Amiga (in any flavours) will ever overtake the wintel or Apple
on the mainstage.
But that being said, I dont see a problem with making a semi sound buissnissmodel for the providers/vendors of software and hardware where they are able to balance the books and even make a profit.
Going back to my A1200 and buying bits and pieces for it for my own enjoyment. A Indivision is probarly sold for more than I would get for my A1200 as it is today, but I still find it reasonable.
I want Amigakit, Vesalia, Individual Computers, Amigastore.eu etc to be able to provide me with hardware when I need it, and then they HAVE to at the very least make a dime on their hobby/buissniss.

The more profit margin, the more likely they are to make new batches or upgrades.
I dont see the problem in applying the same logic to X1000/AOS4.x.
Yes, it isnt likely to EVER compete or even get close to the mainstream performance, but I dont see anything wrong in maximising the utility you get out of said hardware.

I mean, you can follow car makeover programs weekly on TV. They go to workshops that spesializes in renovating old parts (also keeping stock of old parts), or constructing the equivialent. Or replica models. But to be able to provide that service for years at end, the workshop (call it vendors) have to, drumroll, be able to balance the books or even make a profit.
In most cases, the money that are spent on said cars to make the ride more enjoyable (often with increased performance) would net you a very high quality and better performing mainstream car.

In both worlds the one ending in the negative cashflow wise is the ENDuser. The "profit" part for us is the utility or enjoyment we get out of whatever we bought.

So I dont see the hypocrisy.

Last edited by Overflow on 16-May-2015 at 06:51 AM.
Last edited by Overflow on 16-May-2015 at 06:44 AM.
Last edited by Overflow on 16-May-2015 at 06:43 AM.

@KimmoK

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KimmoK wrote: @cdimauro >That's the complete BoM of my PC... Thanks! >TOTAL: €852,41 To me it seems like low price price for such HW. I get €800 for much weaker parts from big finnish shop. (so, next x64 buy I definitely should do from elsewehere...)

Eh. To me it's an high-price for such hardware, because in Germany the average salary is a bit lower than the average Finnish salary.

I think that you can order that from a different country and save money, but as I already stated maybe you don't need such expensive hardware. I bought it because I've (very) different needs (primarily very high IPC; then very good I/O performance) and because I caught an offer.

@KimmoK

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KimmoK wrote: IMO: -current leading OS are not perfect for everyting for every use -current commercial OSs are built to make money not to be perfect for user So, there is room for even better OS. -easy to use -easily controllable -reliable -fast and efficient -affordable -modular/flexible ... But our niche do not currently have a working roadmap or resources to become the better OS that the world needs. So, thinking about our OS to become "leading general purpose OS" again in our lifetime is silly. Better focus on things that are doable. But, (IMO again), we could/should have a roadmap how to become the leading OS somewhere/anywhere/everywhere. Then we can have a better future. We all can do tiny things towards the goal/vision far in the future. Ok, I wasted too much energy. and

KimmoK, it's an hobby: no world domination, and no leading o.s. Take it as is, and enjoy hit.

@Hillbillylitre

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Hillbillylitre wrote: @cdimauro Quote: cdimauro wrote: CPU Intel i7-4970K: €344,36 Are you sure you don't mean 4790k because I can't find 4970k? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_Core_i7_microprocessors

Sorry, it was a typo. Yes, it's the 4790K.

@Massi

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Massi wrote: @cdimauro Quote: I have no SAM, so I cannot compare them. But WinUAE on a good PC can even outperform your SAM, according to some tests which were made (mostly by pavlor). Current emulation has many limits and OS4 emulated is not officially supported, thus for me the real thing has certainly a different and unique feeling.

I can understand, especially regarding the actual (veeeery) low memory limit.

But the situation can improve A LOT here, whereas the same cannot happen with the real hardware.
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If you are happy with your PC, superior machine with the best design and speed and everything, why you need to boot into (some form of) Amiga to (as you stated elsewhere) have some fun?

Pure fun, as you correctly stated. Using WinUAE or AROS (Icaros, in particular) is just fun.

I think like another other here, which uses any Amiga or post-Amiga machine and/or software.

And that fun isn't mutually-exclusive with the fun which I've using my regular PC.

@newlight

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newlight wrote: Somoeone said the Amiga is a 32-bit machine even today. Is the AmigaOne-X1000 a 32-bit machine? It seems very strange to me because even the Amiga 500 has 32 bit functinalities I think,how can it does the x1000?

Leaving the very long and usual debate about what "Amiga" is, the problem is only represented by the o.s.: the Amiga o.s. was strictly 32-bit, and its formal successor AmigaOS4 is exactly the same. Also, there's no chance to see a (pure, normal, whatever do you want to call it) 64-bit version, because it'll completely loose compatibility.

@cdimauro

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But the situation can improve A LOT here, whereas the same cannot happen with the real hardware.

128 MB Fast RAM limit is the biggest obstacle, but there are other limiting factors - only 4 MB GFX RAM, no compositing, no 3D, no overlay, 1 MB/s network speed, slooow FPU etc. If someone releases portable AmigaOne with SAM price, I would buy it immediately.

@cdimauro

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But the situation can improve A LOT here, whereas the same cannot happen with the real hardware.

Well we managed to get improved hardware over the years until today.

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SAM440EP-FLEX @ 733 Mhz, AmigaOS 4.1 Update 1

@pavlor

@pavlor

Although it's not quite what you're looking for, I did just pick up a top end 15" MorphOS laptop for a total of £120, including new license. :)

That's a fully working Powerbook 5,8 (1.67GHz G4) with 1.5GB Ram on Ebay for £35 including delivery (ok, that was a bargain, and you take your chances on Ebay). Add in a new MorphOS license* for E111.11 (less-than £85 today) for portables and that gives an OS + hardware package for less than £120.

I'm not pretending in any way that this could be accomplished with new hardware - on release this Powerbook would have been about £1500.

* I could have transferred my existing license from my last Powerbook, spending £35 total, but I still have hopes of resurrecting it**... despite Apple hardware designer's best efforts.

** Faulty power connector. Requires the removal of every single bloody screw.

Last edited by Boot_WB on 16-May-2015 at 10:24 AM.
Last edited by Boot_WB on 16-May-2015 at 10:21 AM.

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Troll - n., A disenfranchised former potential customer who remains interested enough to stay informed and express critical opinions.
opp., the vast majority who voted silently with their feet.

pavlor

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pavlor wrote: @cdimauro Quote: But the situation can improve A LOT here, whereas the same cannot happen with the real hardware. 128 MB Fast RAM limit is the biggest obstacle,

Which can be easily eliminated by a skilled, but primarily should be motived, coder.
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but there are other limiting factors - only 4 MB GFX RAM, no compositing, no 3D, no overlay,

Another video card can be emulated. With WinUAE I already managed to get 128MB with the RTG video card.

The best solution will be to provide a Picasso or Cyberstorm library which directly talks with the host o.s.. Full video card emulation introduces an overhead which can be completely eminated (for maximum performance, of course).
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1 MB/s network speed,

I don't know the root cause for this, but I think that it can also be addressable emulating another (supported by the o.s.) device or, better as above, providing a library that directly talks with the host o.s..
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slooow FPU etc.

You know that the FPU is not currently JITed by QEMU. But QEMU can be updated, right? It's in continuous development.

The same can happen with Altivec: it can be emulated first and then JITed, with HUGE performance improvements here.

Can you emulate/JIT Altivec on an e5500 core? No way.
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If someone releases portable AmigaOne with SAM price, I would buy it immediately.

Hopeless, and you know it. The only way is the already suggested one: buy a used PowerPC PowerMac laptop.

@Massi

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Massi wrote: @cdimauro Quote: But the situation can improve A LOT here, whereas the same cannot happen with the real hardware. Well we managed to get improved hardware over the years until today.

Yes, but until "yesterday". There's no plan for enhanced or even new PowerPC micro-architectures. See the FreeScale thread.

PowerPCs are already at a dead end: no improvements and constantly swallowed by ARMs and x86s.

Words of hope will not revert this situation: it should simply be accepted as is.

@cdimauro

Why OS4 people have always to defend their system from people like you?

You are never constructive on nothing, always pretend to know everything, always destabilizing ... do you understand this?

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SAM440EP-FLEX @ 733 Mhz, AmigaOS 4.1 Update 1

@cdimauro

It seems like a common mistake. I googled the CPU because I couldn't find it in any stores here in norway and there are even someone who have written a review of it. http://www.pcpowerplay.com.au/review/intel-i74970k,391334


But since you mean 4790k it cost only €30 less here for the same CPU, RAM, SSD and MB when I choose the least expensive stores and convert it to euro.

Last edited by Hillbillylitre on 16-May-2015 at 02:47 PM.

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Using: One Commodore C64 - One Commodore Amiga 500 - One Commodore Amiga 1200 with BVision and Blizzard 68060 with PPC coprocessor running Amiga DOS - One Hellbillylitre Amigatwox86x64x6000x running Windows7

@pavlor
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128 MB Fast RAM limit is the biggest obstacle

128MB is more than enough on an Amiga computer. I used a 32MB and 64MB simm for a very long time on my Blizzard and never had any lack of memory. Now I have 128MB and think I can put 256MB on it but can't see any reason for that.

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Using: One Commodore C64 - One Commodore Amiga 500 - One Commodore Amiga 1200 with BVision and Blizzard 68060 with PPC coprocessor running Amiga DOS - One Hellbillylitre Amigatwox86x64x6000x running Windows7

@Massi

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Massi wrote: @cdimauro Why OS4 people have always to defend their system from people like you? You are never constructive on nothing, always pretend to know everything, always destabilizing ... do you understand this?

I was talking about PowerPCs, not OS4 with you. If you know some good new about PowerPCs you are free to post it and for sure you'll make happy a lot of people here.

But moaning and accusing me of "destabilization" only because I report FACTs doesn't change the situation.

Don't you like what I write? Well, nobody forces you to read my posts and not even replying to me. Put me in your ignore list, and live happy.

@Hillbillylitre

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Hillbillylitre wrote: @cdimauro It seems like a common mistake. I googled the CPU because I couldn't find it in any stores here in norway and there are even someone who have written a review of it. http://www.pcpowerplay.com.au/review/intel-i74970k,391334

ROFL. That's a HUGE mistake.

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But since you mean 4790k it cost only €30 less here for the same CPU, RAM, SSD and MB when I choose the least expensive stores and convert it to euro.

Good. Maybe KimmoK can order from your location.

@OlafS25

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OlafS25 wrote: @Leo Kolla was requesting MMU on Apollo board because he wants to run Unix with it and repeating that.

Please pay attention and stop misrepresenting me. Apollo supposedly will have an MMU (it is "promised", as you would put it), and if that happens, chances are high that Linux and BSD will support it (and Apollo in general) so jolly good for me. I was requesting a *compatible* MMU (with existing 68k) because of legacy Amiga software, because of RAM limitations on the Vampire boards, and because it would make Apollo core much more attractive for other 68k users outside of the Amiga community. See the thread on Apollo core by the guy who wants to reimplement Sun3/80 with Apollo core. I gave him an extensive list of reasons why it can never be accomplished with Apollo and linked to the Suska project which claims a full 68030 inc MMU softcore, only to have my post removed.

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Here he wants a totally new and different OS. In both cases others shall do it, he himself has different things to do.

Excuse me, but have you read the topic on this thread?

In my view, the only way to make AmigaOS a leading operating system, is to reimplement it from scratch as a modern OS with features users and developers alike expect to find in a modern operating system. That is coinsidently also something I would love see happening.

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And if Hyperion (or anyone else) would go in that direction I would not be interested myself.

Denial much? You do not want a modern Amiga like OS? But you are not interested in whatever Hyperion is currently doing either, are you? Or MorphOS?

I love AROS for what it is, something for anyone to tinker with, and only a few deluded AROS people have ideas of World Dominance, and Leading OS, I have never told AROS developers to go anywhere.

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On newest versions of Windows many of the older software is still running for some reasons.

That reason is an API called win32, something Amiga totally lack an equivalent for. There were attempts on creating something like win32 for Amiga back in the days (open Amiga etc) but nothing came out of it, for the usual reasons.

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Nobody drops compatility without good reasons. A OS that would only share some basic concepts is not very interesting to me. BTW more than some basic talk Kolla never offered, no concepts, no plan what these ideas it shares with Amiga would be, not what it would be based on.

Yes I have, for almost two decades, pay attention.

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He has the right to say his opinion, but same is true for ME

But I never claimed you said this, and you want that. You OTOH keep posting things you claim I have said, and claims that I want. I can not remember I hired you as my secretary of PR, but just in case I did, you are fired.

Last edited by kolla on 16-May-2015 at 03:26 PM.
Last edited by kolla on 16-May-2015 at 03:25 PM.

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@cdimauro

I hope you understand new PowerPC notebook is more probable than ALL needed improvements I mentioned. Some are trivial (RAM, GFX RAM, network), some not (compositing, 3D, FPU).

@Hillbillylitre

What sells these cheap small devices is not that they are cheap, but that they run the most feature rich modern operating system kernel existing today, namely Linux. If Raspberry Pi could only run RISCOS, how many would sell? Maybe a couple of thousands to RISCOS devotees.

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