@cdimauro
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Quote: olegil wrote: @olegil Quick, someone port the driver for this: http://www.display-solution.com/en/products/chips/elite_silicon_E2868_E3868.html so we can have some extra USB ports if we ever have too many ethernets But that'll draw more power.

I thought you were using Intel which requires an IO Hub (or whatever it's called these days. Not exactly a fair comparison if I'm not allowed to use ANY power outside of CPU + RAM while you can add ~3W without any explanation.

I'm a firm believer in simplicity, a T1022 design will not compete with an Intel laptop on top speed, but it WILL compete on simplicity. Nearly EVERYTHING is on-chip, with the exception of sound and 3D graphics. I would give it one or two SATA, a USB2 hub, expresscard mpcie and MXM for 3D. OR one x4 to MXM and one x4 to an AMD SB. That solved ALL the shortcomings in just a handful of watts without being very difficult to route. Extra PCIe for mPCIe/EC has now been aquired. Problem solved. Case in point.

I just wish billt would stop obsessing with things like USB3 and e6500 cores, then this community would have the know-how to bring a T10xx laptop to the market within about 6 months. Not kidding.

Edit: initially wrote T1014, but it doesn't have 8 serdeseseseseseses so it's easier to change the text to T1022 than try to figure out what would be possible with the '14
Edit2:
The idea of T1 + MXM + SB would allow scaling from T1022 through T1042 up to T2081 without changing the PCB, btw. So Altivec within reach. Finally managed to compare the T10xx and the T208x reference manuals for the serdes assignment tables

Last edited by olegil on 19-May-2015 at 10:24 AM.
Last edited by olegil on 19-May-2015 at 10:10 AM.
Last edited by olegil on 19-May-2015 at 10:09 AM.

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Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

@damocles

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damocles wrote: @megol Quote: Like what? Most things I see aren't innovative nor generally useful. Today, it's about packing in a lot of punch in a relatively low cost mobile devices. Tomorrow, it's about VR that makes today's attempts of VR look primitive. Might be wrong, but I doubt it.

A lot of punch - sure. But for consumption devices - not for creation devices. Good for browsing, taking pictures and writing short texts. Bad for reviewing data, making decisions and writing anything beyond the above mentioned short texts. Information delivery have already switched towards videos instead of text as those "modern" devices aren't suited for text reading. Websites are also getting dumbed down interfaces that makes it easier to use finger navigation but makes actually doing things much slower both for mobile devices and computers alike.
A picture is worth 1000 words? Sure, sometimes. But a short text can be worth 30 minutes of video.

And VR have known physical limitations. It will be useful for some things but not in general.
What does todays variant of VR have that we haven't seen already? More compute power and more pixels - sure. But the problems were never in those areas. The fact that a healthy human can't use a VR system without significant problems (nausea, eye irritation etc.) makes general VR a dead end.
So that leaves augmented reality. Is it generally useful? Not really. Humans are generally not capable of multi-tasking which limits the system to add extra information that doesn't disturb the view and doesn't force a task-switch event (for the human that is). That decreases the usefulness greatly.

@agami

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none of the mainstream operating systems with leading features have been able to capture some of the basic performance aspects of AmigaOS.

List them (succinctly, not all this press release babble).

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@olegil

How about this form factor?:

http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/compute-stick/intel-compute-stick.html


Would be awesome to have an Amiga on a hdmi stick

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@Rob

Quote:

Rob wrote: @cdimauro Quote: Which is just sufficient for a desktop, but too much for a laptop, where usually the GPU is integrated on chip and only a SATA is needed, with some USB port for external connectivity. What happens to such unused ports? Is it possible to completely power-gate them, so they draw near zero power? The T10x2 SOC don't have audio or video integrated so the configuration of the serdes lanes would be as follows: GPU 4 lanes 2X SATA 2 Lanes Ethernet 1 lane Audio 1 lane That's all 8 lanes used and no unused ports that need to switched off.

That's a good configuration, but usually a laptop has only one SATA, so one lane can be disabled or routed to conver an USB3 port. IMO.

@olegil

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olegil wrote: @cdimauro Dang, accidentally closed the window while researching for my reply.

Damn. It's a pity.
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Anyway, personally I don't want an Intel GPU,

Any reason for that? They are wide-spread (around 60% of the whole GPU market, if I remember correctly) and give good performance (considering that they are integrated). For the average user they should suffice.
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I want an Intel GPU with an AMD GPU in my next laptop (then at some point I'll retire this one and use the components in the waifu's laptop which has a slower CPU but a dedicated GPU. Unfortunately that's a Acer which requires the equivalent of "brain surgery through the urethra" for CPU replacements).

That's difficult. Usually Intel CPU + external GPU = nVidia GPU used. Whereas an AMD GPU means the also the GPU is from AMD -> APU.
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On a totally different note, I'm looking at one 4700hq + R9 M265X + DVD vs one 4510u + R7 M260 and the former is cheaper than the latter. Same manufacturer, other components are virtually identical. Can anyone shed some light into why newer models with half the performance are more expensive?

No idea, sorry.
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Edit: Oh, and if sites like GPUBoss would kindly include Intel HD graphics in their database so it would be frelling possible to frelling compare two frelling laptops I would be a happy camper. Thankfully notebookcheck acknowledges Intel as a GPU manufacturer

Take a look at this: Intel Iris Pro 5200 Graphics Review: Core i7-4950HQ Tested
It doesn't seems so bad. ;-P

@bison

* GUI in the core of the OS, AmigaOS has no CLI only mode
* multiple screens at core of the OS, with uniq properties
* Amiga style menus, with multi-select to create a macro that is executed on release of RMB
* various DOS concepts, like logical volumes, virtual volumes (assigns) etc
* icon files (#?.info) that gives user lot of possibilities to be creative ;)

Probably some other things too.

Last edited by kolla on 19-May-2015 at 10:14 PM.

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@olegil

Quote:

olegil wrote: @cdimauro Quote: But that'll draw more power. I thought you were using Intel which requires an IO Hub (or whatever it's called these days. Not exactly a fair comparison if I'm not allowed to use ANY power outside of CPU + RAM while you can add ~3W without any explanation.

I didn't mean that you cannot use it. I simply stated that such adapter will draw more power.

Yes, Intel uses an HUB to handle all external peripherals, and it draws power too.
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I'm a firm believer in simplicity, a T1022 design will not compete with an Intel laptop on top speed, but it WILL compete on simplicity. Nearly EVERYTHING is on-chip, with the exception of sound and 3D graphics.

Here is the block diagram for the latest Intel's Atom (Cherry Trail):

Here is the bigger image.
As you can see, it's quite simple. I believe even simpler than the T1022, since it also integrates many more stuff on-chip.
Quote:

I would give it one or two SATA, a USB2 hub, expresscard mpcie and MXM for 3D. OR one x4 to MXM and one x4 to an AMD SB. That solved ALL the shortcomings in just a handful of watts without being very difficult to route. Extra PCIe for mPCIe/EC has now been aquired. Problem solved. Case in point.

Problem solver, OK, but regarding simplicity and power consumption I still have some doubts.
Quote:

I just wish billt would stop obsessing with things like USB3 and e6500 cores, then this community would have the know-how to bring a T10xx laptop to the market within about 6 months. Not kidding.

You've forgot the drivers.

BTW, can someone test the following for me:

Make a drawer.
Open icon info.
Change icon type of the drawer from "drawer" to "project".
Set multiview as Tool.
Save icon info.

What happens when you double click the icon?
Back in 3.1 days, I am pretty sure that Multiview would open, with file requestor located at the drawer, showing the content.
In 3.9 I believe workbench ignores that it is a project icon and just opens the drawer, much to my annoyance. But I have not investigated if this is due to workbench.library or icon.library.

How about OS4, AROS and MorphOS? I am far away from my computers and cannot test.

Why is it cool to have drawers as projects? Imagine making a drawer with a script inside and various resources such as images etc. set interpreter as tool and presto, you have an "app". I had this working back in the 90ies, with a rexx wrapper script as tool, but it is long lost, and at some point setting drawers as projects stopped working.

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AmigaOS4 proposal from 1996-ish, which would have been great.

http://www.amiga.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=204&pictureid=1251

Last edited by kolla on 19-May-2015 at 10:38 PM.
Last edited by kolla on 19-May-2015 at 10:36 PM.

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@kolla

MorphOS:

Drawer icons can't be set to project, unless you cheat and create/edit the icon first, then create the drawer.

Double-clicking the .info file (in list/all-files view) opens multiview, with a requester saying 'failed to load document foo:bar'

Double clicking the folder (in list/all-files, or in icon view) opens the folder normally, ignoring the project icon/default tool.

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@Boot_WB

Quote:

Double-clicking the .info file (in list/all-files view) opens multiview, with a requester saying 'failed to load document foo:bar'

I am not sure if executing a tool on drawer icons is good idea. It is illogical to have drawer icons which dont work like drawer icons.

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@itix

It is not illogical to have a drawer contain a project, with an associated tool.

OSX does this all the time, most OSX applications are folders containing resources. Same with RISCOS, where a folder becomes an application by adding ! as prefix in folder name. But most importantly - it is, AFAIK, what OS3.1 did.

Last edited by kolla on 20-May-2015 at 12:10 AM.
Last edited by kolla on 20-May-2015 at 12:10 AM.

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In regards to the topic at hand, a quick review of ideas seems to suggest that the best way to make amiga os a leading os again is to:

a). spew a bunch of random words whose meaning you have no real idea about

b). ignore responses from people who are better informed about why delusion a, b and c aren't options.

c). start the process over, this time with different things you don understand.

d). Have the occasional delusional person claim to know how to fix it, and on the cheap, but without any suggestions as to how (convenient)

e). rinse and repeat.


Seriously, Im all for innovation and new features/ideas in OSes I like, but threads like this are part of the reason the rest of the computing world finds us a laughing stock (those who are aware of our existence that is).

Last edited by fishy_fis on 20-May-2015 at 02:18 AM.

@kolla

Quote:

BTW, can someone test the following for me: Make a drawer. Open icon info. Change icon type of the drawer from "drawer" to "project". Set multiview as Tool. Save icon info. What happens when you double click the icon? Back in 3.1 days, I am pretty sure that Multiview would open, with file requestor located at the drawer, showing the content.

Works in OS4.1 but it becomes imposibble to open the drawer as a drawer, even indirectly via ARexx.

AS an extension of that you can set the default tool to filer, and start from shell then it opens the drawer in filer, but it messes up access to the workbench in someway, you can no longer display any subdrawer on the workbench or bring up an icons info.

I'm wondering if this happens to be the way workbench hides volumes from the workbench, or it makes WB think the directory is hidden in some way.

Last edited by broadblues on 20-May-2015 at 02:34 AM.
Last edited by broadblues on 20-May-2015 at 02:21 AM.

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@broadblues,

Hidden folder? Interesting

Chris

@fishy_fis

I can't help but read this as a jab at me.

What did you expect, a play-by-play of exactly how to extend exec to take advantage of multiple processors and still maintain compatibility with 68k and PPC applications already released? Or the complete functional specification of the 11 new libraries that will need to be added to assist developers in updating their existing apps to an intermediary framework toward a more portable OS?

You perceive these things to be utterly impossible and therefore any discussion to the contrary must be coming from people who "have no real idea about" it?

Even if you dismiss my contribution to this thread as mere fantasy, there are three separate teams, albeit small and working limited hours, that know exactly how to implement multicore support in their respective Amiga NG operating systems without breaking compatibility. And they are slowly working to make this a reality. The actual developers can be accused of many things, but not knowing how to implement features that exist in pretty much every other OS is not one of them.

And if we stop having threads like these the rest of the computing world will take us seriously, is that it? Nothing to do with the fragmentation, the lack of modern features or software, or the lacklustre and overpriced hardware? No, it's threads like these.

Also, here are my credentials Linkedin Public Profile
I think I have more than a leg to stand on when discussing such topics.

Last edited by agami on 20-May-2015 at 08:39 AM.

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@itix

Agreed, I like my drawers as drawers. :)

It would be easy enough to script such a function and offer it in the contex menu if required anyway.

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Troll - n., A disenfranchised former potential customer who remains interested enough to stay informed and express critical opinions.
opp., the vast majority who voted silently with their feet.

@bison

Quote:

List them (succinctly, not all this press release babble).

1. I am a little surprised I have to list these to someone who has used the Amiga.
2. @kolla created a nice list #647, but he is listing the user facing features (effect) not the supporting functions (cause).

AmigaOS has a uniquely flexible and responsive internal task scheduler. It allows for a decoupled UI processing and instruction processing. It's what makes it possible to let the user continue to engage with the GUI while the system is working in the back end on returning results. It also allows for the GUI macro feature @kolla listed.

AmigaOS has an innate metadata file based system. This allows for functions to operate directly on files without an intermediary interpretation process. File and data interchange and integration is more efficient. It's one of the reasons ARexx is so potent.

AmigaOS has a uniquely addressable or rather re-addressable filing system. It reduces the amount of listeners that need to operate within the operating system and it makes the application operating environment highly customisable. Information and data organisation can be abstracted much easier with less CPU time than what has been added in Windows and Mac OS X. It's one of the mechanisms supporting functionality of Datatypes, Devices, Locales, etc.

AmigaOS's primary language is GUI, or rather widgets (Intuition). Where other operating systems operate layers of GUI well above the core OS, in the AmigaOS architecture this sits much lower. Unfortunately, in order to extend the native GUI functions, dedicated 3rd party developers have created GUI layers above the native layer in the years since Commodore's demise.

AmigaOS still has one of the most flexible shared library systems. The libraries themselves need updating but the system that allows the sharing of libraries is still up to the task.

Morphos and AROS have reverse engineered these 'effects' into their own software 'causes' and therefore mimic the AmigaOS operating environment. But if I was going to enhance the 'cause' to create new 'effects', then I would go back to the original source.

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@Boot_WB

Quote:

Agreed, I like my drawers as drawers. :)

Yes, but it is super easy to have a different icon for a 'Project Drawer' to differentiate the look. That is one of the strengths of AmigaOS; To support many different styles of interaction.

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