@AmiDARK

Quote:

AmiDARK wrote: @Overflow I was not alone to notice the way Daytona675x spoke to me. Hans and some other guys see it. More of this, a good reviewer must concentrate on all aspects of the projects he must review. He must be able to point on the negative ones (what Daytona did), but also on the positives ones (what he currently didn't do, arguing that even good things do not exist)

That's something that I cannot really see. Absolutely no, code reviews have NOT to be positive! The only positive comment when I do code reviews for my peers/colleagues, is when I put a +2 on them, and write a four characters comment: lgtm (looks good to me). Which means: now you have my OK to commit and merge the changes.

And another thing which should be pointed-out: the patch submitter have NOT the right to commit the patch until it receives a +2 from some reviewer. For obvious reasons.
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As he didn't do that, his review is subjectively oriented. Even if bug report is really positive thing he've done ... his review was subjectively oriented on many points, For example : "no organisation into implementation", is a point of view, there are organisation and all modules files are structured the same way. Other example : He consider "improvements" as a bug ... And it's fake as if a function work perfectly without unwanted behaviour, then it's not bug. Even if it can be improved... And I can find others ... All what I say if clearly justified.

Sorry to say that, but what's clear here is that you lack experience (not only with C) and produced code with poor quality. The code reviews that you got from Daytona and other guys show that it's not a question of subjective opinion about your code.

When you copy buffers without proper boundary checks, when you replace a division by zero by 0.0000001, when you duplicate code sections and files too, etc., they are a clear signal that you haven't the required maturity and vision about code development.

That's normal since you stated that you're a newbie, especially doing it as self-educated. You have to learn a lot, and acquire the good mindset. It's perfectly normal and acceptable, since nobody starts as an expert coder.

What's not acceptable IMO is your bad attitude, especially against the comments coming from the reviews. Daytona has saved your original quotes, so everyone can (chronologically) see what happened and how. You took everything as extremely personal.

But I don't want to repeat the same things that others have already pointed-out.

What's important here is that you don't see how much value have the code reviews that you got. Code reviewers, especially very skilled ones, are RARE BIRDS. You are very lucky and should be proud that such experienced coders have dedicated THEIR time and made code reviews for you, because they let you fix YOUR code and increase YOUR knowledge: there's always something to learn!

One last thing. Now that the bounty failed, don't ask money for a closed project: it doesn't make sense. If you want to continue with your engine/framework, improve it and make it more robust and goodly written. THEN you can ask money for a license for peoples which are interested to use it, as it happens normally.

@Overflow

Quote:

Overflow wrote: There is one thing Ive been wondering about; Power2People, why wasnt the bounty paid out immidiatly after passing the threshold+date?

Because Power2People feels a deep obligation to not pay out financial contributions from donors based on mere promises. Power2People usually requires a public review of any project before the collected funds are released, which ensures an utmost level of transparency for donors as well as developers.

During the past 7 years, there has only been a single project that was cancelled as a result of the review process. All other projects had their funds released and were successfully completed. I will leave it up to you to decide whether this means that the entire process is evidently broken by design or whether this may have had something to do with the project that ended up being cancelled.


Quote:

I wasnt aware it had to pass a "review" after the fact, and it did take quite a bit of time from when the bounty was fullfilled until donations was withdrawn.

First of all, it is generally not allowed for donors to request refunds during the review phase. In this particular case, however, the assigned developer publicly requested that donors who are unhappy with the findings should contact Power2People and withdraw their funds.

Secondly, Power2People waits a minimum of 2 weeks for any project to be reviewed so even if the first weekend is a holiday one, when people might be busy with family and other personal matters, testers have at least one other weekend to participate.

Thirdly, it is important to remember that this project was designed for other developers and not end users, which severely limits the pool of volunteers who are capable to do a proper review. Also, it was announced to be unfinished, which makes testing substantially more difficult because you need to closely remember what the rather long bounty description claims is "finished" and what is expected to be broken or even missing.

With any other Power2People project, the developer can usually provide executable binaries for end users which can then be tested to see if they provide all the promised functionality and run stably. This takes a lot less knowledge, effort and is much easier to do compared to a source code review.

Bearing this in mind, here is the actual timeline of what happened:
1. After the developer finally released the sources, we opened the review process on January 14.
2. On January 31, Fred specifically asked Power2People to wait (!) so he can do some additional investigations and changes before closing the project.
3. In early February, we assisted Fred by providing some guidance on how to set up AROS in a virtual machine (Fred sold his AmigaOS4 machine a long time ago) for basic development and testing.
4. On February 10/11, Fred suddenly removes all public sources without any warning
5. Shortly after, Power2People receives requests to remove donations from multiple donors.
6. After discussions with the developer, the project is officially cancelled.


Quote:

Are P2P supposed to sit on the money until they see the result of a 100 page trainwreck on AW?

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Odd way of doing it tho...

Personally, I find your proposal to pay out funds without any review process whatsoever far more disturbing. I suppose we have to agree to disagree on this matter.

Last edited by ASiegel on 22-Feb-2015 at 11:22 AM.

@ASiegel

Thanks for the comprehensive answer.

My question regarding the P2P process was just founded in my ignorance. I do not necissarily disagree with it.
I was just observing the review process while wondering what sort of scale is being used to measure success or failure.

Again, thanks for the detailed answer.

@Overflow
Quote:

Are P2P supposed to sit on the money until they see the result of a 100 page trainwreck on AW?

It is much better wait few more days and review to code/test the software than transfer money right away and be surprised later.

If only Amigabounty.net followed same procedure in the past, we could have working Firefox port...

@AmiDark

Have you stopped working AmiDark ?

What have we learned from this and the other thread? That most programmers are easily aggravated, or bothered when criticized, either about their code, or about how they interact with other people, and they are perfectly willing to go on writing or talking about it for weeks on end, repeating themselves over and over again, with little to no chance of any of them admitting any mistakes, or learning anything from the exchange.

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@amigadave

It isnt my experience. But i think its good if amidark gets at least some time off and wins some distance to the issue. Its his code and his decission to work on it or not.

Last edited by wawa on 06-Mar-2015 at 12:42 PM.

@amigadave

Quote:

with little to no chance of any of them admitting any mistakes, or learning anything from the exchange.

No one likes to be criticized for his or her work; this is true in all working environments.

Well things you learn the best comes from experience, having tried different things and seen what works and what does not.

Let's say you have an experience with a way of doing things that is good, now someone tells you that there is better way, but your perfectly happy with way you're doing it, because you works for you, and it has always worked.

You then realize that you need to spend 1 month or maybe more having to re do it, the way they say, or you can continue down the path you were going, ignoring the advice.

Its bit like if your building a house, and then some comes and tell you that there is something wrong with the foundation, and house might collapse on top of you. However, you have built house before so way should he take the advice when the houses you have built before has not yet collapsed.

Now if the advice had come in the start of project, then it more likely that you take the advice, because there is nothing to lose.

So if some get emotional over something they have worked on for months or years, it should not come a surprise.

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That most programmers are easily aggravated

Unless you have done some thing your proud of, and then some one and there it down. You will not understand how developers feel about their work.

I think everyone can get emotional, but that does not make the advice bad.

I think what Daytona675x is most concerned about is getting AmiDark to listen to his advice, there for it might sound hash.

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Quote:

Overflow wrote: @AmiDARK ...At the end of my post I want to say; I really hope your engine gets developed and succeed. Maybe stick to Amigans, as there is less noise there But you have to learn to NOT take code/bug reports personally. thellier's comment was a good one "SO JUST CODE & STAY FACTUAL". Thats how its done in bigguns thread and on every development thread in Amigans.

as a donator I'd just like to say.......+1

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@zChris :
For the moment, I will tell nothing more publicly concerning the AmiDARK Engine project because whatever the answer I'll give. I'll get flamed by some ... so it's useless.

Regards,
AmiDARK

@NutsAboutAmiga

I think there was a wrong perception of the state of the project by Amidark. They should have written in the bounty description that it is a "hobby project" and "early development state" and "released in its current state" then nobody could have said anything against it and I assume that most donators would have donated despite that.

@OlafS25

I'm not taking about AmiDARK here specific, amigadave made general description of developers. (You replayed a bit early, I was not finished editing my comment.)

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 09-Mar-2015 at 02:26 PM.

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@BSzili
Quote:

I'm also in contact with the person who withdrew his donation, and I can confirm what he said. No need to accuse anyone, not everyone has an AWN account.

Thanks for saving me from those weird acusations

@ASiegel
Thanks for that interesting insight.

@AmiDARK
Quote:

Once again, as I'm not a professional!

Yes, we know that by now. And that's the reason why I'm wondering why you tried (and sometimes still try) to act like one when argueing about clear bugs being reported - instead of accepting them. Ironically - and contradicting - enough: some weeks ago you became angry because you thought I said you were a "noob" (the truth is: as Britelite pointed out you simply didn't understand what I was saying, namely that the engine's target audience would be noobs, but anyway).

Quote:

For the moment, I will tell nothing more publicly concerning the AmiDARK Engine project because whatever the answer I'll give. I'll get flamed by some ...

Remember that thing about cause and effect? As long as you behave (= don't start flamings yourself and then wonder about the back-fire, stay to the truth, don't miscredit people, don't act crazy on valid criticism, be grateful when given important advices, don't insist in being right when you were proven to be wrong, make up your mind whether you want to be treaten like a beginner or a pro and don't switch depending on situation, etc., etc., you know, all those basics) then you certainly don't have to be afraid of being "flamed".

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...so it's useless.

I'm afraid, it looks like the only useless thing so far was giving you advices.
All in all I have to second zzd10h, cdimauro and, of course, wawa
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stop looking for a guilty.

One more advice nevertheless. Better don't listen to the advice Hans gave you:
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Don't dismiss the "coding style" issues altogether.

Bad advice, that "altogether". Especially bad considering that you consider yourself being a C beginner. Even more important then that you stick to certain style rules.
The style-issues I told you are critical. So the far far better advice is the one I already gave you at the very beginning of this thread:
don't dismiss any of the "coding style" issues at all! Fix'em all and adopt those styles! Otherwise I can already foresee a dark future for "AmiDARK Engine Remastered".

And, like cdimauro said: it's not a question of subjective opinion about your code. Wrong is wrong and critically bad style is critically bad style. No matter what kind of creative mind you are.

Happy coding!

@OlafS25
Quote:

They should have written in the bounty description that it is a "hobby project" and "early development state" and "released in its current state" then nobody could have said anything against it

Correct! Although the phrase "very buggy" wouldn't have hurt to absolutely clarify things.

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@Daytona675x & others

ok. cant we put this to rest now?

Yes I recive my money with a little Paypal's toll

Last edited by Templario on 06-Mar-2015 at 07:43 PM.

@Templario
Sorry for the paypal toll.

@Daytona675x

Quote:

Daytona675x wrote: One more advice nevertheless. Better don't listen to the advice Hans gave you: Quote: Don't dismiss the "coding style" issues altogether. Bad advice, that "altogether". Especially bad considering that you consider yourself being a C beginner. Even more important then that you stick to certain style rules. The style-issues I told you are critical. So the far far better advice is the one I already gave you at the very beginning of this thread: don't dismiss any of the "coding style" issues at all! Fix'em all and adopt those styles! Otherwise I can already foresee a dark future for "AmiDARK Engine Remastered".

Dude, sometimes it's better to give someone a gentle nudge in the right direction rather than grabbing them by the throat and trying to force them (in the metaphorical sense, of course).

Hans

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@Hans

Quote:

nudge in the right direction rather than grabbing them by the throat

He is being managed.

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@NutsAboutAmiga :
I'm not an employee.

After your edit with the new picture :
It's worst :p
these kind of ideas impose a relationship of "superior" and "employee".
We are not in a company. So each people should speak as "equal to equal". Even in a review. Whatever the capability of each one is.
Acting in another way than this is a "lack of respect".
Remind the word "Hammer" someone said in a previous Thread about the AmiDARK Engine ... It show all. From that point I started to be "totally mind closed". Nothing will change that... Even "hammer'in and hammer'in again". My mind cannot be hammered. It's a fact and a definitive thing. People can thing it's ego from me ... they are free to think what they want. I have nothing to do with this.

By acting this way, saying again and again the same things, this person show (s)he want to destroy my liberty of expression in this forum and try to impose a dictature of his though. Whatever our though are .. good .. bad ... objective ... Subjective ... Many countries like the one I live are under "democrary" ... and democracy mean "no dictature" ... So this person can continue to lost his time ... I will no more directly answer to him.

I answer to you NutsAboutAmiga, just to clarify my position and the situation regarding to all people that follow these threads.

Concerning the AmiDARK Engine project, no more information/communication will be revealed until situation regarding myself and the project itself clearly change.

Just a last note, for the person that think a review cannot contain positive point. I'll tell you that it is simply a "lack of objectivity" from you, the point of view of an obsolete hierarchic system . The though of a mind based on the duality "superior/inferior" where the reviewer is here to show its superiority, flatter his ego by showing its capability to point on the error of the other person project. The truth is that when you review a project, to estimate its financial value, both negative and positives points must be clearly available. Otherwise, you cannot value a project to its TRUE FINANCIAL VALUE. All others though are "blabla" ... But everyone is free to think what he want. Everyone is free to think a project contain or not good things ... Concerning myself, i don't accept view others that the one I think is "correct" and "justifiable".

EDIT : Special gift : Knowledge will bring you from point A to point B.... Creativity will bring you everywhere you want.

Regards,

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Last edited by AmiDARK on 06-Mar-2015 at 10:08 PM.

@AmiDARK

Excuse me AmiDARK.. But you should try to reread what people write to you.
Sometimes it seems you do not understand or simply choose to ignore?!

I have not read all comments between you and Daytona but to my understanding,
reading a few, it seems he writes objectively but but with an sarcastic tone.
This tone more than often comes from you not answering a question, talking jibberish
or in some other way talk about being jumped on for no reason.

I get it, you got a bit upset when experienced coders called your code pretty much
crap. But your answer should have been "I'm completely new at coding C could you
please point out what changes I can do to better my code?"

IMHO anyway.

Think about it. Don't be so hard headed. It will be better for you and your project
not to alienate yourself from possible help in the future.
Use all the help you can get!

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