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terminills
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Re: Copyright Infringement in OS4 SDK Posted on 13-Sep-2015 13:39:50
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AROS Core Developer |
Joined: 8-Mar-2003 Posts: 1472
From: Unknown | | |
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OlafS25
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Re: Copyright Infringement in OS4 SDK Posted on 13-Sep-2015 13:51:20
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Elite Member |
Joined: 12-May-2010 Posts: 6321
From: Unknown | | |
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| @Trixie
what a silly and unrealistic idea...
it is more propable that hell freezes than this happening |
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Trixie
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Re: Copyright Infringement in OS4 SDK Posted on 13-Sep-2015 14:00:19
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Amiga Developer Team |
Joined: 1-Sep-2003 Posts: 2089
From: Czech Republic | | |
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| @OlafS25
Quote:
what a silly and unrealistic idea... |
Of course it's silly - especially as we see that new trenches are dug every day. It's just amazing that people come up with the "let's cooperate" idea over and over again._________________ The Rear Window blog
AmigaOne X5000/020 @ 2GHz / 4GB RAM / Radeon RX 560 / ESI Juli@ / AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition SAM440ep-flex @ 667MHz / 1GB RAM / Radeon 9250 / AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition |
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Develin
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Re: Copyright Infringement in OS4 SDK Posted on 13-Sep-2015 17:24:52
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Regular Member |
Joined: 16-Mar-2006 Posts: 443
From: Karlstad, Sweden | | |
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| I cannot help myself from quoting a suitable song by Morrissey :
Quote:
"Sorrow Will Come In The End"
Legalized theft Leaves me bereft I get it straight in the neck (Somehow expecting no less) A court of justice With no use for Truth Lawyer ...liar Lawyer ...liar You pleaded and squealed And you think you've won But Sorrow will come To you in the end |
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recedent
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Re: Copyright Infringement in OS4 SDK Posted on 13-Sep-2015 18:39:44
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Regular Member |
Joined: 28-Jan-2010 Posts: 227
From: Tarnów | | |
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| @Trixie
I think we need to work out a good algorhitm of cooperation. Let me think...
1. You get an idea of cooperation 2. You get the needed permission to use somebodys code 3. You use the code
Now, that would be IMHO the most optimal order. Any other might not work as expected (especially all the ones, where number 3 is executed before number 2). |
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wawa
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Re: Copyright Infringement in OS4 SDK Posted on 13-Sep-2015 18:46:04
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Elite Member |
Joined: 21-Jan-2008 Posts: 6259
From: Unknown | | |
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| @Trixie
Quote:
Trixie wrote: @blizz1220
The thing is that this discussion has grown well out of proportion. In the funny context of hobbyist operating systems such as AmigaOS and MorphOS, the appropriation of Piru's work is an act of gross indecency rather than sheer "criminal activity". Hyperion haven't handled the situation very well (and Ben's legal defence isn't helping: think of a bull in a china shop), but neither has Piru and some of his supporters. The focus should be on remedying the problem ASAP, not on constantly incriminating the wrongdoer.
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perhaps the thing has grown out the proportion. but its entertaining to see how the offending companies are either called hobbyists or serious enterprises, whatever suits the immediate case. |
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cdimauro
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Re: Copyright Infringement in OS4 SDK Posted on 13-Sep-2015 18:48:51
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Elite Member |
Joined: 29-Oct-2012 Posts: 3621
From: Germany | | |
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| @Trixie
Quote:
Trixie wrote: @Leo
Quote:
Microsoft also reimplemented most iOS & Android APIs with Windows Bridge. I guess their legal department would have advised against it if it was illegal... This doesn't seem to be a problem to Apple |
But it does seem a problem to the homegrown lawyers around here, apparently. |
Or by lawyers that doesn't know even elementary laws? |
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wawa
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Re: Copyright Infringement in OS4 SDK Posted on 13-Sep-2015 18:51:19
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Elite Member |
Joined: 21-Jan-2008 Posts: 6259
From: Unknown | | |
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| @Trixie
Quote:
Trixie wrote: @NutsAboutAmiga
Quote:
There is no need for AmigaOS to stay compatible with MorphOS |
Please tell that to the people who start a "Let AOS, MOS and AROS cooperate!" thread every month |
os4 isnt apparently compatible enough to amiga os to allow for easy porting of software. so this line has been crossed long ago. therefore too i doubt os4 header files or code are usually in their genuine form of so much interest to other involved parties. and what concerns cooperation, according to my observation, it is being carried out by people who are concerned with it and its being undermined by others no matter what.Last edited by wawa on 13-Sep-2015 at 07:05 PM.
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wawa
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Re: Copyright Infringement in OS4 SDK Posted on 13-Sep-2015 18:55:38
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Elite Member |
Joined: 21-Jan-2008 Posts: 6259
From: Unknown | | |
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| @Cyborg
i must admit that, like others, i start to like your attitude. i hope you keep it up as well as your position. good luck. |
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cdimauro
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Re: Copyright Infringement in OS4 SDK Posted on 13-Sep-2015 19:21:09
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Elite Member |
Joined: 29-Oct-2012 Posts: 3621
From: Germany | | |
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| @Hyperionmp
Quote:
Hyperionmp wrote: @cdimauro
If you believe you can approach the law in a "boolean" or even "binary" fashion as you are describing, you have just confirmed my point that you need suitable qualifications and experience as legal counsel to make these calls.
Even then lawyers might not agree or courts might not agree.
Hence the existence of an appeal procedure or the existence of a US Supreme Court or EU Court of Justice. |
We weren't talking about law in general, but about THIS, YOUR case, which is quite clear.
Yes, I know that even when the law is clear, lawyers might not agree: that's why you're paid for. And courts also can decide differently, but fortunately there are some degrees to lower the chance of mistakes made by judges (which aren't perfect: they fail too).
Anyway, if there's something wrong about what I said, you're free to correct me from the highness of your profession.
However, note that just stating something only about your status of lawyer, and also claiming that a degree is required to understand something, fails on a very well known logical fallacy: Argument from authority Read: it doesn't exempt you to prove your statements.
In fact, another thing which is quite clear is that you're carefully avoiding to express your (modest) opinion regarding what, in the end, YOUR company did.
As other persons have remarked too, the question was NOT about REIMPLEMENTING APIs (read: NEW, NOT copied, work) OBVIOUSLY using the same interface, but about someone of your team that, AGAIN, did a verbatim copy of some other work, replacing copyrights (which should have some meaning for someone which pretends to be a lawyer), and rephrasing some other stuff AFTER that it was caught out (which is another clear admission of responsibility).
Even the EU sentence that you reported proves that you were, and are, plainly wrong, and that's without the strict need to have a degree in law.
So, either you haven't understood it, or you're just desperately trying to defend your company (which makes sense, of course).
BTW, releasing a product does NOT necessarily require a lawyer. In serious companies, there's a very strict process that developers (QA too) and managers have to follow for achieving that, using also consolidated tools for the task which helps A LOT to manage and analyze the changed code. Lawyers are involved IF AND ONLY IF some ambiguities/doubts are found, which is quite RARE.
I don't pretend that you understand it, since Piru's episode proves out of any doubt that either you don't have any idea about such processes, or simply that you were in perfect mala fides (read: you, as a company, did it intentionally). The latter is true for sure, because of the "fix" that you released after the first SDK release.
To conclude, instead of raising your degree in law, it's better for you that you give your honest opinion, without pretending to teach other people something that they might know very well.
Apologizing isn't a bad thing: it's the difference between an adult and a child which prefers to hide himself behind poor excuses. |
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pavlor
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Re: Copyright Infringement in OS4 SDK Posted on 13-Sep-2015 19:28:07
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Elite Member |
Joined: 10-Jul-2005 Posts: 9578
From: Unknown | | |
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| @cdimauro
Do you think Ben Hermans will even bother to read your comment? |
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blizz1220
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Re: Copyright Infringement in OS4 SDK Posted on 13-Sep-2015 19:46:35
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Regular Member |
Joined: 12-Jun-2013 Posts: 437
From: Unknown | | |
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| @cdimauro
Well I did study law for ten long years and and I can tell you that it didn't make me smarter nor that being very smart or creative makes memorizing process any less difficult.
You can find a lot of judges that wouldn't be able to install Windows but might make a decision in very complicated IT cases.They need to call court experts for that and tend to abide by their opinion.With your level of IT knowledge you could be called expert of that field.Why not put your knowledge to use and educate people of the thread as to what happened here ?
Please use small words so I can understand if you do |
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cdimauro
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Re: Copyright Infringement in OS4 SDK Posted on 13-Sep-2015 19:55:34
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Elite Member |
Joined: 29-Oct-2012 Posts: 3621
From: Germany | | |
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blizz1220
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Re: Copyright Infringement in OS4 SDK Posted on 13-Sep-2015 20:03:25
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Regular Member |
Joined: 12-Jun-2013 Posts: 437
From: Unknown | | |
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| @cdimauro
Very good and clear answer.
So Piru's rights were ignored and then files were a little modified and apology was offered.As for MUI and who owns it and what it does I didn't follow that but what does that code do in SDK ? I mean , what is the purpose of that code and why couldn't it just be removed if time to re-write it wasn't there for example ?
EDIT : this new code , not MUI Last edited by blizz1220 on 13-Sep-2015 at 08:04 PM.
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TRIPOS
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Re: Copyright Infringement in OS4 SDK Posted on 14-Sep-2015 9:33:51
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Super Member |
Joined: 4-Apr-2014 Posts: 1204
From: Unknown | | |
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| @TRIPOS
Well, I'm glad this turned out to be a good thread with healthy discussions, since the issues are of fundamental importance. Aside from the expected posts from the kind of individuals I mentioned in the Original Post, we actually learned a lot.
Especially from Ben Hermans (we also learned that he was HyperionMP), who successfully taught us that some stuff are only copyright-able when coming from Hyperion, similar 100% comparable things coming from other entities are not, which of course is totally in line with "the double-standards Hyperion/OS4 doctrine" that are now more established than ever. We also learned that maybe Ben Herman's isn't that much of a trade mark lawyer he claims to be after all, his recent practice and comments in this thread totally gave that away, so it doesn't matter anyway. But this sure explains a lot!
Thank you megol, jorit2, umisef, hyprionmp, number6, itix, cdimauro, etc, etc for your valuable contributions!
I'll end this post by quoting cgutjahr: "One of these days I'm going to start a bounty - let's pay Hyperion and A-EON to stay well clear of the "AMIGA" and "AmigaOS" marks. That way, those of us who do actually care about the Amiga's legacy and what happens to it could finally let go, while the OS4 crowd can keep this travesty going without any of us bothering them. That's a win-win scenario, right?"
I'm sure many agrees with you, but don't wait too long! I have a feeling that those abused marks has had a trend of losing meaning for a growing number of people for at least 1-2 decades, and perhaps it's even accelerating? |
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blizz1220
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Re: Copyright Infringement in OS4 SDK Posted on 14-Sep-2015 9:55:23
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Regular Member |
Joined: 12-Jun-2013 Posts: 437
From: Unknown | | |
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| @TRIPOS
And I'm still in dark as what the code in question was or what part of it was code.I won't even bother following any NG topics here.
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broadblues
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Re: Copyright Infringement in OS4 SDK Posted on 14-Sep-2015 10:50:00
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Amiga Developer Team |
Joined: 20-Jul-2004 Posts: 4446
From: Portsmouth England | | |
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| @blizz1220
Quote:
And I'm still in dark as what the code in question was or what part of it was code
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The 'code in question' is 944 bytes of C header file containing 1 structure and 1 enum and a few comments, if you remove the standard preamble and postamble from it you get about 570 bytes.
They *should* have written from scratch, but if they had have done you'd still have a,tough time telling them apart with something this trivial.
The autodocs are a different issue ofcourse.
_________________ BroadBlues On Blues BroadBlues On Amiga Walker Broad |
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blizz1220
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Re: Copyright Infringement in OS4 SDK Posted on 14-Sep-2015 10:57:46
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Regular Member |
Joined: 12-Jun-2013 Posts: 437
From: Unknown | | |
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| @broadblues
I see , seems like a big deal , enough to make war about.
Nevermind that 3 x apology , if I was Ben I would sue for being accused of "theft" in this case just for the hell of it. |
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damocles
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Re: Copyright Infringement in OS4 SDK Posted on 14-Sep-2015 11:13:50
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Super Member |
Joined: 22-Dec-2007 Posts: 1719
From: Unknown | | |
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| @blizz1220
Quote:
blizz1220 wrote: @broadblues
I see , seems like a big deal , enough to make war about.
Nevermind that 3 x apology , if I was Ben I would sue for being accused of "theft" in this case just for the hell of it. |
Discovery phase of a civil trial could be rather interesting for everyone.
_________________ Dammy |
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eder
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Re: Copyright Infringement in OS4 SDK Posted on 14-Sep-2015 12:27:25
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Regular Member |
Joined: 16-Mar-2004 Posts: 280
From: Unknown | | |
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| @damocles
Yes, but it could also backfire... |
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