Click Here
home features news forums classifieds faqs links search
5782 members 
Amiga Q&A /  Free for All /  Emulation /  Gaming / (Latest Posts)
Login

Nickname

Password

Lost Password?

Don't have an account yet?
Register now!

Support Amigaworld.net
Your support is needed and is appreciated as Amigaworld.net is primarily dependent upon the support of its users.
Donate

Menu
Main sections
» Home
» Features
» News
» Forums
» Classifieds
» Links
» Downloads
Extras
» OS4 Zone
» IRC Network
» AmigaWorld Radio
» Newsfeed
» Top Members
» Amiga Dealers
Information
» About Us
» FAQs
» Advertise
» Polls
» Terms of Service
» Search

IRC Channel
Server: irc.amigaworld.net
Channel: #Amigaworld
Channel Policy and Guidelines

(Uses JAVA Applet and Port 1024)
Visit the Chatroom Website

Who's Online
 75 guest(s) on-line.
 5 member(s) on-line.


Rob, zzd10h, Mimifan, more...

You are an anonymous user.
Register Now!
 g01df1sh:  1 secs ago
 Rob:  2 secs ago
 Mimifan:  25 secs ago
 cip060:  1 min ago
 zzd10h:  3 mins ago
 michalsc:  12 mins ago
 Frank:  15 mins ago
 amigakit:  29 mins ago
 BSzili:  53 mins ago
 Everblue:  55 mins ago

/  Forum Index
   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  Why was AmigaOS 4.X developed only for PowerPC?
Register To Post

Goto page ( 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 Next Page )
PosterThread
Sky7 
Why was AmigaOS 4.X developed only for PowerPC?
Posted on 10-Dec-2015 14:56:22
#1 ]
Member
Joined: 9-Sep-2009
Posts: 17
From: Unknown

I have always wondered why AmigaOS 4.X was only developed for PowerPC based Amiga's and not for the Motorola 680xx Amiga's?

I can fully understand the concept of trying to move the Amiga platform to a new processor family but the core Amiga user community back then (and now) was of the Motorola 680xx variety.

From the perspective of potential sales, it seems like they limited themselves to a very, very small market (PowerPC based Amiga's) versus the general Motorola 680xx market.

Was this a combination Motorola 680xx/Amiga AGA limitation thing that drove AmigaOS 4.x to be PowerPC only?

-S7

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
pavlor 
Re: Why was AmigaOS 4.X developed only for PowerPC?
Posted on 10-Dec-2015 15:04:23
#2 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8807
From: Unknown

@Sky7

Quote:
I have always wondered why AmigaOS 4.X was only developed for PowerPC based Amiga's and not for the Motorola 680xx Amiga's?


Performance?

680x0 architecture was dead on desktops in mid 1990s. For comparison: 68060 and 603(e) could be comparable in speed/MHz. 603e 160 MHz scores 3-4 SpecInt95 (note: 68(XX)060 has only up to 75 MHz clock speed). 750CXe used in the first AmigaOne scores 25 SpecInt95 (10x faster than 68060 50 MHz!).

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
OlafS25 
Re: Why was AmigaOS 4.X developed only for PowerPC?
Posted on 10-Dec-2015 15:09:59
#3 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5309
From: Unknown

@pavlor

User?

But propably everyone thought 68k user would move to NG (AmigaOS or MorphOS) what not happened

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
pavlor 
Re: Why was AmigaOS 4.X developed only for PowerPC?
Posted on 10-Dec-2015 15:13:03
#4 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8807
From: Unknown

@OlafS25

Quote:
But propably everyone thought 68k user would move to NG (AmigaOS or MorphOS) what not happened


Well, most remaining developers migrated to PowerPC OSs, but Blue-Red war in their crucial years destroyed any hopes for success for both AmigaOS 4 and MorphOS.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Daedalus 
Re: Why was AmigaOS 4.X developed only for PowerPC?
Posted on 10-Dec-2015 15:16:50
#5 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 1644
From: Glasgow - UK, Irish born

@Sky7

The 68k line was at the end of its major development life, so the 68060 would be the last major release of that architecture. At the time Amiga, Inc. originally decided to take the jump from 68k, the PPC was seen and marketed as the successor to the 68k line, and the natural progression for systems wanting more CPU power. This is also the way Apple went, so there was a precedent there.

Things are a little different now regarding the 68k, with most users using them for retro nostalgia, and as such, CPU power isn't a massive issue and they're happy with 20-year-old computing speeds. But back then, there was the expectation that companies would try to advance the OS to more and more powerful systems, just as there is with Windows, Linux, Android and practically every other OS out there. It was natural to try and move architecture, or be stuck on early '90s CPUs forever.

Unfortunately, between the development of OS4 taking so long and the various legal shenanigans surrounding it, when it eventually did come to light it wasn't as clear-cut that it was a good idea. But at the time, it was a perfectly rational way to go.

_________________
RobTheNerd.com | InstallerGen | SMBMounter | Atoms-X

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Why was AmigaOS 4.X developed only for PowerPC?
Posted on 10-Dec-2015 16:36:02
#6 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 10896
From: Norway

@Sky7

Quote:
I can fully understand the concept of trying to move the Amiga platform to a new processor family but the core Amiga user community back then (and now) was of the Motorola 680xx variety.


At time when PowerPC came to Amiga. It was not really a decision that came from the owner, of Amiga.
It was Phase5 who made that decision, as It came as add-on or upgrade, the integration was poor, and did not really move the OS on PowerPC.

What happened her mirrored what going on with MacOS at the time, or a few years before, only difference was that Commodore was bankrupt, while Apple was not.

There was no way forward on MC680x0, there was no new chips being developed, there where however the spin off processors coldfire, but this chips was proven to be too incompatible.

The PowerPC made perfect sense as it's a big-endian CPU like 680x0, what this means is that it stores Integers, shorts, in the same format as 680x0 CPU, while the Intel CPU's do not.

Hex decimal numbers on PowerPC and 680x0 are lot easier to read then on Intel.

Quote:
From the perspective of potential sales, it seems like they limited themselves to a very, very small market (PowerPC based Amiga's) versus the general Motorola 680xx market.


It was not possible to get 680x0 CPU's that where as fast PowerPC.

The market:

If you wonted a professional computer like Draco, it was going to cost you an arm and a leg. Even you when out to buy a 680x0 A4000, and wonted to upgrade it, you end up with insane price. To high demand, too few available, seller's market.

Amiga had become a rare object.

It was too little too late for 680x0 and that problem did not go away with PowerPC.

Quote:
Was this a combination Motorola 680xx/Amiga AGA limitation thing that drove AmigaOS 4.x to be PowerPC only?


AGA limitation drove Amiga to product like El-Box, PCI expectation board and G-Rex. The more exotic Zorro slot made many graphics chips, network chips, USB, Firewire chip, Web cams, Bluetooth, unavailable to Amiga,

AGA did not drive Amiga to PowerPC, nor did Zorro, but being exotic excluded Amiga from many technology upgrades.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 10-Dec-2015 at 04:41 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 10-Dec-2015 at 04:40 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 10-Dec-2015 at 04:39 PM.

_________________
Please check out my software:
Excalibur, Basilisk 2, AmigaInputAnywhere.
LiveForIt-Music
http://lifeofliveforit.blogspot.no/

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
pavlor 
Re: Why was AmigaOS 4.X developed only for PowerPC?
Posted on 10-Dec-2015 16:54:51
#7 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8807
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
At time when PowerPC came to Amiga. It was not really a decision that came from the owner, of Amiga.


Amiga Technologies announced Power Amiga in 1995, two years before PowerUP cards were released.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Why was AmigaOS 4.X developed only for PowerPC?
Posted on 10-Dec-2015 17:24:03
#8 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 10896
From: Norway

@pavlor

Well did they not announce Amiga for RISC, and ARM, as well? I remember a lot of speculations about the NG CPU for Amiga.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 10-Dec-2015 at 05:58 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 10-Dec-2015 at 05:24 PM.

_________________
Please check out my software:
Excalibur, Basilisk 2, AmigaInputAnywhere.
LiveForIt-Music
http://lifeofliveforit.blogspot.no/

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
pavlor 
Re: Why was AmigaOS 4.X developed only for PowerPC?
Posted on 10-Dec-2015 17:34:50
#9 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8807
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
Well did not announce Amiga for RISC, and ARM, as well? I remember a lot of speculations about the NG CPU for Amiga.


No, Amiga Technologies did choose PowerPC. However, plans of Gateway2000...

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
cdimauro 
Re: Why was AmigaOS 4.X developed only for PowerPC?
Posted on 10-Dec-2015 17:46:29
#10 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 2021
From: Germany

@Sky7

Quote:

Sky7 wrote:
I have always wondered why AmigaOS 4.X was only developed for PowerPC based Amiga's and not for the Motorola 680xx Amiga's?

I can fully understand the concept of trying to move the Amiga platform to a new processor family but the core Amiga user community back then (and now) was of the Motorola 680xx variety.

From the perspective of potential sales, it seems like they limited themselves to a very, very small market (PowerPC based Amiga's) versus the general Motorola 680xx market.

Was this a combination Motorola 680xx/Amiga AGA limitation thing that drove AmigaOS 4.x to be PowerPC only?

-S7


PowerPCs only made sense after the Commodore bankrupt. So, it was a very late decision to start (effectively) the port of Amiga o.s. 3.1 to PowerPC. On 2001, PowerPCs had already lost the crow of the performance.

In fact, even Apple, on 2000, was about to go for x86, with MacOS X 1.0 being commercialized for this architecture. They switched back to the PowerPC only because a rampant IBM's manager promised the famous G5. But, at the end, the transition to x86 was just postponed of some years.

In short: it's just another example of very bad management of Commodore's heritage...

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
PhantomInterrogative 
Re: Why was AmigaOS 4.X developed only for PowerPC?
Posted on 10-Dec-2015 17:53:50
#11 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 10-Sep-2004
Posts: 749
From: The Interrogative Lair

@NutsAboutAmiga

I seem to remember that around 1995 Escom/Amiga Inc were considering the possibility of 68k*, ARM, PowerPC, or Alpha CPUs. When Phase5 came out with their PPC accelerators, I don't think Amiga Inc. had yet made a decision. That is why there was not a standard PPC library provided by Amiga Inc.; thus, the PowerUP vs WarpUP battle that followed.

*I have an e-mail saved somewhere from Carl Sassenrath concerning a conversation he had with Petro about trying to leverage Motorola to put a lot of cache on a 68040 and up its MHz to around 200.

At the time, very few wanted ARM chips. Most people didn't want a slow 30 MHz ARM processor. They wanted something to compete with Mac and Windows. I remember several users arguing for the use of the Alpha because of its blazing speed. As of now, how many companies produce Alpha chips? The PPC, despite its problems, has survived.

When Gateway announced an x86 Amiga that would run Linux, I don't remember a single Amiga user who wanted it. They hated x86, and didn't want Linux. Few wanted Amino's x86 TAO OS either (I tried running a demo of it on a x86 dev machine... terrible). When Hyperion announced a PPC AmigaOS, I don't recall anyone at that time arguing that it was a bad choice of CPU.

Our hindsight is always crystal clear.

Now, x86 has a large following because of its price. ARM is cheap and has become much faster. PPC is available but expensive and nearing the end of its lifespan.

_________________
I sold my SAM460ex lite... waiting for money to buy the X5000... or Amiga Reloaded... or an A1222... and OS4.2 FE update 9000

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
pavlor 
Re: Why was AmigaOS 4.X developed only for PowerPC?
Posted on 10-Dec-2015 17:55:25
#12 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8807
From: Unknown

@cdimauro

Quote:
the transition to x86 was just postponed of some years.


2003: Power Mac G5
2006: Transition to Intel CPUs

Just for record.

Quote:
In short: it's just another example of very bad management of Commodore's heritage...


What they should do? Please, enligten us.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
pavlor 
Re: Why was AmigaOS 4.X developed only for PowerPC?
Posted on 10-Dec-2015 18:05:04
#13 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8807
From: Unknown

@PhantomInterrogative

Quote:
When Phase5 came out with their PPC accelerators


Released in 1997.

Quote:
That is why there was not a standard PPC library provided by Amiga Inc


AmigaOS developement stalled in 1995-1997, that is why there was no standard PPC library until OS3.5. Gateway2000 did look for new strategy: OS3.5 was first announced (1997), then cancelled in favour of new technology (early 1998) and again revived (late 1998). To make things even more complicated, such new technology OS (OS4/OS5) should be based on QNX (1998), then Linux (1999) and finally shelved. With such "strategy" of parent company, it is miracle at least some product (OS3.5) was released...

Quote:
Few wanted Amino's x86 TAO OS either (I tried running a demo of it on a x86 dev machine... terrible).


AmigaOS (yes AmigaDE was so called in early 2000...) should run on many CPU architectures (including ARM, x86 and PowerPC). Of course they rather continued in "classic" AmigaOS developement - as this was what community really wanted, not dreams about Amiga Anywhere.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
billt 
Re: Why was AmigaOS 4.X developed only for PowerPC?
Posted on 10-Dec-2015 18:09:06
#14 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Oct-2003
Posts: 3073
From: Maryland, USA

@Sky7

At some early on point, there was a plan to have a dual track for OS4. Hyperion had the PowerPC track, and the Amithlon thing was going to be an x86 track, with both happening in parallel.

While everyone seems to think that x86 is the path to success, if that were true, then how do we have both OS4 and MOS on PowerPC, and no Amithlon anymore? The x86 path imploded and vanished...

_________________
All glory to the Hypnotoad!

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
pavlor 
Re: Why was AmigaOS 4.X developed only for PowerPC?
Posted on 10-Dec-2015 18:11:27
#15 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8807
From: Unknown

@billt

Quote:
and no Amithlon anymore? The x86 path imploded and vanished...


Why do you think Haage/Partner was in the end not involved in OS4 project? Here lies your answer about Amithlon´s fate.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
PhantomInterrogative 
Re: Why was AmigaOS 4.X developed only for PowerPC?
Posted on 10-Dec-2015 18:25:46
#16 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 10-Sep-2004
Posts: 749
From: The Interrogative Lair

@pavlor

Quite right. Phase5 introduced PPC accelerators in 1997. TAO was supposed to be processor agnostic... but at the time it only ran on a dev system that was x86.

As a side note, I do find it interesting that FPGA is making possible what Petro Tsychenko and Carl Sassenrath wanted back in 1995/96. I think it would have been nigh impossible for Escom to muscle Motorola into further developing the 68040/060.

_________________
I sold my SAM460ex lite... waiting for money to buy the X5000... or Amiga Reloaded... or an A1222... and OS4.2 FE update 9000

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
pavlor 
Re: Why was AmigaOS 4.X developed only for PowerPC?
Posted on 10-Dec-2015 18:27:34
#17 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8807
From: Unknown

@PhantomInterrogative

Quote:
I think it would have been nigh impossible for Escom to muscle Motorola into further developing the 68040/060.


Exactly.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
cdimauro 
Re: Why was AmigaOS 4.X developed only for PowerPC?
Posted on 10-Dec-2015 18:31:18
#18 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 2021
From: Germany

Quote:

PhantomInterrogative wrote:
When Hyperion announced a PPC AmigaOS, I don't recall anyone at that time arguing that it was a bad choice of CPU.

Our hindsight is always crystal clear.

I don't make any effort believing that, because that niche was living (and still lives) outside of the world.

Even Apple (one of the PowerPC consortium's founder!) had hard times presenting their machines with artifacted benchmarks for selling their PowerPC systems, but the reality was quite different.


@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:
the transition to x86 was just postponed of some years.


2003: Power Mac G5
2006: Transition to Intel CPUs

Just for record.

From 2000 to 2003 it was an agony for Apple, since it had no flagship product to compete with the PCs.

She took a breath only when the G5 arrived, and so she was able to take the trumpet and unleash her marketing machine. However the reality, again, showed a very different picture (I've already reported a link with comparisons with real-world applications, just a couple of days ago).

BTW, the transition means that Apple already prepared it well before it was announced. And it was announced on 2005: just two years after that the G5 arrived...
Quote:
Quote:
In short: it's just another example of very bad management of Commodore's heritage...


What they should do? Please, enligten us.

We already discussed it: go for a more powerful architecture, and with a much brighter future.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Why was AmigaOS 4.X developed only for PowerPC?
Posted on 10-Dec-2015 18:37:03
#19 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 10896
From: Norway

@cdimauro

But they dumped MacOS for MacOSX.

_________________
Please check out my software:
Excalibur, Basilisk 2, AmigaInputAnywhere.
LiveForIt-Music
http://lifeofliveforit.blogspot.no/

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
cdimauro 
Re: Why was AmigaOS 4.X developed only for PowerPC?
Posted on 10-Dec-2015 18:41:29
#20 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 2021
From: Germany

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
@cdimauro

But they dumped MacOS for MacOSX.

Yes, but MacOS X came directly from NeXTSTEP, where the primarily supported architecture was x86.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Goto page ( 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 Next Page )

[ home ][ about us ][ privacy ] [ forums ][ classifieds ] [ links ][ news archive ] [ link to us ][ user account ]
Copyright © 2000 - 2017 Amigaworld.net.

Amigaworld.net was originally founded by David Doyle