@thinkchip

Quote:

thinkchip wrote: @ne_one At some point Amiga NG will have to break with the past. It's inevitable.

Very true. And that point is about now (or rather, half a decade ago). Wait much longer, and no-one will be here to use it anyway.

@TRIPOS

Quote:

Oh! My! God!

Probably you use too much X86 dont know ppc :P

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@TRIPOS
Quote:

Very true. And that point is about now (or rather, half a decade ago). Wait much longer, and no-one will be here to use it anyway.

Too late already. Developing of everything going to be slower with years, user base is shrinks. Now, if there will be switch to little endian cpu, then all that whole base of apps will not works, and probably 90% of which will be not recompiled anymore as authors die/don'care/have-no-interest-anymore.

Sadnboxing will not help as well, as it will have bugs, which no one can/will fix, and all that mess will drive away even that little interest which we have now. Taking aside "just" switch can take 10 or 20 years if we take in account how fast Hyperion works today :)

So, it is worth to just enjoy how it now. I mean instead of asking for everything and co, just enjoy how it now, just for few years more.

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@Rob

I do not remember... I think Commodore still lived but i think they were already in trouble. I can remember that one part of package (I think keyboard) had to be replaced by the trader.

@kas1e

True ... the important is enjoy it but at the best it can do
we dont know the true potentials of an X1000 at 100% of it power... same is the X5000

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@Rob

I mentioned the same... you cannot compare the market and prices 1990-1994 with 2017, it is completely different now. Prices of amigas were too high already at that time but in no way comparable to today. It is a hobby and not rational decision but please stop it to try to proof that buying X5000 is rational today. It is not.

@tlosm

and if last PPC dies the lights go out

could be from a movie

@OlafS25

i dont think Power9 will die so soon :P

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I love Amiga and new hope by AmigaNG
A 500 + ; CDTV; CD32;
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#nomorea-eoninmyhome

@tlosm

I forgot

the AmigaOne Workstation

@TRIPOS

it is a hobby... there are alternative NG OSs (at least one) running on different hardware and with SMP, there is lot of activity in 68k now so situation is not that bad. The 4.X fans can use what they have for some time (even without MESA/Gallium and SMP) and if hardware dies someday they can think what to do. What kas1e wrote is basically also true for MorphOS when changing ISA (somewhen perhaps), software propably has to be adapted and recompiled. I assume that not all software is available in sources and because there is not much 3rd party activity that there will be not much software available at first and I assume this will not change. MorphOS should have done this long time ago, perhaps even at start, at a time with much more users and developers, also they could have marketed it much better as a modern successor of Amiga. Now the change is too late, besides that it seems they (OS developers) have lost lots of steam after some core devs left.

Last edited by OlafS25 on 11-May-2017 at 09:46 AM.

@TRIPOS

>>At some point Amiga NG will have to break with the past. It's inevitable.
>Very true..... Wait much longer, and no-one will be here to use it anyway.

+1

I rather would love to see Hyperion/AOS dying while trying to jump AOS to true next gen, rather than not trying and anyway dying.

@kas1e

>Sadnboxing will not help as well, as it will have bugs, which no one can/will fix,

Is AOS4 on x86 (Alice) really in that bad shape?

Last edited by kimmok-alt-account on 11-May-2017 at 09:49 AM.

@kas1e

Quote:

kas1e wrote: @TRIPOS Too late already. Developing of everything going to be slower with years, user base is shrinks.

You are probably right, the critical mass is probably lost. But at a modern x64 platform, with an OS with basic modern features (64-bit addressing/computing, true SMP, true MP/resource tracking, etc) and the most important end-user apps for regular daily use in place, the chance of a re-igniting spark occurring is at least >0%, while the chance of that happening on weird underpowered $3000 machines using a dead-end CPU running an OS that never really reached true "NG" is =< 0%.

If not true NG, then the only interesting thing remaining in Amiga lands would be the Retro/Emulation/Vampire/Apollo/etc. That's cool too, but not what I (for one) was hoping for...


Quote:

Now, if there will be switch to little endian cpu, then all that whole base of apps will not works, and probably 90% of which will be not recompiled anymore as authors die/don'care/have-no-interest-anymore. Sadnboxing will not help as well, as it will have bugs

Sandboxing will be the solution, in the shape of UAE, just like it is on AROS. A well proven and good enough solution, I'd say.

The point with a true NG OS would not be running Personal Paint anyway, such things could very well be handled in UAE, and it will be just fine doing that.

When MorphOS makes the jump, I think it's safe to assume that most important applications for common daily use will be NG-native out of the box (since many of those apps are developed by the same people developing the MorphOS itself), i.e. web browser, e-mail client, FTP, IRC, mplayer, music players, etc, etc. From day one! Then of course the contemporary MorphOS S/W still being developed will follow (not overwhelmingly many), including applications like PageStream (that has been mysteriously shown on a few public occasions (in the picture it's running on MorphOS 3.10 on an X5000 )).

But hopefully it will also lure some people back to the platform, and perhaps interest a few newcomers from outside. I mean, who knows what will happen on a true NG path? It could succeed, it could fail. But remaining on the current path is a certain failure for sure.

(sorry if this is a double post, but..)

There is no sign that 4.2 is canceled or that multicore support is canceled.
It just takes a lot of time with limited resources, therefore better enjoy what exist.


It takes more time if legacy binary compatibility (68k and AOS4.1) is maintained with multicore support.

Multicore support:
-with unlimited resources AOS4.1 could morph to SMP OS (like it has been done in Windows and Apple world)
-with limited resources AMP is far more easy to implement and could still use secondary core(s) for something
-I would not mind if I need to reboot to legacy incompatible AOS4.2 when I want to use all cores and back to 4.1 for legacy SW (+I have my SAM for legacy needs)
-If legacy incompatible 4.2 is implemented, then legacy sandbox could be made later

I personally would love to see AmigaOS speed and features brought to SMP world, rather than using all resources in trying not to break anything.
(+I could donate for that...)

@TRIPOS

Quote:

Certainly NOT! OS 4.2 is an extensive list of promised features! And it has been "just around the corner" for at least a decade, and at one point ssolie proclaimed that it was to follow right after OS 4.1.3. It must have been one of the longest carrot-dangling schemes in history, and it has been used a lot to justify selling extremely expensive H/W to gullible people willing to sell their left kidney to be in the club: "OK, the current OS4 isn't able to use this H/W as it's supposed to, but once OS 4.2 gets here all features will be covered". So let's NOT get into history revisionism by calling OS 4.2 "just a label".

As one of the so called "gullible people", am I disappointed that full hardware support for my X1000 is still not been realised (including dual core support) after five years, yes its shame I dont think Tevor or anyone in the the NG community can be happy with the pace of progress we see from AmigaOS 4.2, it was quite clear to me when A-EON / Amigakit had an issue of securing suitable AMD graphics cards for NG machine they couldn't rely on Hyperion making a solution they took it on them self to find & commission one, and a lot of the extra core components of OS4 you can now see are being developed in the Enhancement software package. So I think A-eon are doing what they can to support OS4 community and NG users.

the problem and where I put the blame is more on Hyperion

it clear that Hyperion and OS4 is running on a shoe string budget and lot of recent developments has been made on good will/free time (my guess) plus add the fact that the two key developers (Frieden brothers), one as I understand it has had health issues (hope all it well now), and have also kinda of lost interest in working in the amiga market anymore, (this is just speculation and just what I heard threw the great vine, although I believe they worked on liber office port thats just gone into beta so maybe this is bs) this has not helped and I kinda see when it took them a year plus to get OS4.1 ported to X5000 you know things cant be going too well for Hyperion. I personally believe that if they no longer has the resource or will to continue to develop OS4 they should allow A-EON to, but that wont happen as AmigaOS is great property to have and like always Trademarks and Value matter more than whats right for the community. (this is why Aros was created to get away from all the bs).

At the end of the day for me personally the update we have gotten have been enough, all bit very slowly, but like I said before you compare OS4.1 base with OS4.1FE & Enhance I think the OS has made progress (not as much as we like but it still going)

I still think a modern browser is more important than Mult-core or Gallium3D and is the biggest thing that got me to make the plunge on the X1000 and seeing it not as big of a risk. Firefox / Timberwolf running I thought you know what thats pretty cool if the OS can support a modern app like that there hope for OS4 and the future of the platform, as we all know that did not pan out well. But I still love the X1000 weather it ever get OS4.2 or full Dual core support I loved the machine and the fun its given me.

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@OlafS25

Quote:

OlafS25 wrote: MorphOS when changing ISA ... software propably has to be adapted and recompiled.

This is a given. It has been communicated by one of the developers; MorphOS "NG" won't be source compatible, but their aim is that the required changes will be minimal.

I kind of like that. Sure, it will present an obstacle, but once that has been overcome, the result will be so much better. Forever thereafter. If you are doing a change like this, do it right from the beginning and set a new standard that can last.

Quote:

I assume that not all software is available in sources and because there is not much 3rd party activity that there will be not much software available at first and I assume this will not change.

68k Amiga S/W goes into UAE. Like on AROS. Hyperion has OS4 running on x86 UAE as well. Maybe that could be an option for abandoned MorphOS S/W as well? If there will be a need for it. Which I'm not certain of...

Quote:

MorphOS should have done this long time ago, perhaps even at start, at a time with much more users and developers, also they could have marketed it much better as a modern successor of Amiga.

They publicly announced this path 11.11.11, possibly work started before that. I suppose they are doing it as part of regular MorphOS development, refining the sources with every release. The importance of the MorphOS Sam 460 port had for example very little to do with "added MorphOS users" (there hardly weren't any), but it allegedly meant a lot for the general refining of the MorphOS source code, with the result of "getting MorphOS to boot on the X5000 afterwards took merely 2 days" (Piru). MUI 5 has been about integrating it with intuition and such, and I suppose a multi-threaded GUI makes sense on an SMP system, so maybe there has been preparations there as well? Then of course driver developments, especially GFX. That takes time, but again, this is for the general good of MorphOS, not for a migration jump alone.

Quote:

it seems they (OS developers) have lost lots of steam after some core devs left.

It's by far not as bad as for OS4, but having to recreate some stuff has for sure delayed things.

But I hear that a MorphOS 3.10 release is not that far off now though...

@kimmok-alt-account

I do not think that Hyperion has resources to do that, both financial and development. I think I read somewhere from Ben H. that he claims that Hyperion has invested 2.5 million dollar in 4.X (500.000 for legal battle with amiga inc.). If they would ask comparable amount of money for getting 4.X even Trevor will not do it, he is a little crazy (I mean in a positive way) but not completely. His business model regarding amiga (if you can call it that) is to prefinance hardware and software development and to recollect the money later from selling at least getting enough to cover expenses. That seems to have worked finally with X1000, if it works on X5000 and Tabor has to be seen, not to talk about the software he prefinances. So it is a costly and risky hobby for him, gratulation for 4.X community to have somebody like him otherwise the platform would already be dead for some time propably. But he certainly would never spend millions of dollars to get 4.X and additionaly invest lots of money in further development because the chance to ever get it back is zero, I would even say he would lost millions by that. At least I would never do that, even if I would have the money and like something.

@TRIPOS

68k software is not the problem but MorphOS software without sources and developers no longer active

regarding X64, I regularly read morph zone, I cannot remember any officialy announcement what platform they will use, right now there are realistic ARM and X64, X64 of course more propable because the current most powerful platform and of course Apple using it but at least right now no official conformation. Or do you know something different?

I never said something bad about MorphOS, it is certainly a good OS but in my view it inherited too many limitations from 3.X, it was not "NG" enough to attract users outside and not retro enough for majority of current amiga fans. Also unfortunately there was the war between Hyperion and MorphOS team (I fortunately missed) that spread in the community so (from my experience) it lead to most users and developers not even thinking about changing platform when hardware died. That is true for a number of developers who were supporting 4.X and left after hardware died, one even asked me if battle still continued. In my view both sides have harmed each other, both at end loosing. Also unfortunately all camps leading in different directions making the platforms more and more difficult to support. There should have been cooperation and a kind of standard all support, of course impossible when all sides hate each other. Today it is too late to change anything...

Last edited by OlafS25 on 11-May-2017 at 10:44 AM.

@OlafS25



Quote:

Now the change is too late, besides that it seems they (OS developers) have lost lots of steam after some core devs left.

...One of them said that the first who would make an ISA change would loose. Thats the reason why he left. Now everyone can see that heavily promoted image of happy, united and powerfull MOS team is false. All teams struggle because of tiny resources.

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@OlafS25

Quote:

OlafS25 wrote: @TRIPOS 68k software is not the problem but MorphOS software without sources and developers no longer active

Well, like I said...



Quote:

regarding X64, I regularly read morph zone, I cannot remember any officialy announcement what platform they will use, right now there are realistic ARM and X64, X64 of course more propable because the current most powerful platform and of course Apple using it but at least right now no official conformation. Or do you know something different?

Yes, x64 (AMD64) is what has been communicated. One motherboard family and one laptop family initially, at launch.

But maybe ARM has developed into a a state where more generic/desktop options exists than now, some time in the future? I think that would be a possibility as well, in that case. Microsoft is going for ARM now with its standard Windows 10, which is kind of interesting (and yes, it has an x86 JIT that runs smoothly ).

Either one. Or both of them? Depends on how things are done. On Linux you can easily build S/W for many platforms and architectures using the same sources.

But x64 is what has been said.

Quote:

I never said something bad about MorphOS, it is certainly a good OS but in my view it inherited too many limitations from 3.x

Having superior 68k backwards compatibility has been top priority from day one. It's not a bug, it's a feature! And it shows if you compare it to, say, OS4.

But with 64-bit/x64 etc, the priority obviously changes!




Quote:

Also unfortunately there was the war between Hyperion and MorphOS team

The cause of that is gone now (Ben Hermans).

Given the current state of things, I'd say that Hyperion will be gone soon as well, or at least have a different role...


Quote:

Today it is too late to change anything...

Well, if you change your mindset from: "When the Amiga makes its comeback and will battle on the big arena with the big boys Windows and Mac" etc, to: "Hey, this is a cool hobby, I like doing this, it doesn't matter that my Amiga can't do everything my Windows 10 box can do", then it will start feeling much better.

There is never too late to have fun!

@TRIPOS

fun yes

difference no...