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cgutjahr 
Re: AMIGA A1222
Posted on 3-Dec-2017 14:14:57
#101 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 969
From: Unknown

@wawa
Quote:

a system with zero software, just for the sake of it, what sense would that make

Pretty much all 68k software is at least 20 years old by now and becomes more useless with every day that passes. There's really not all that much difference between "zero software" and "68k software" - at least if you actually want to get some work done, not post screenshots of your setup after booting it the first time in weeks.

Edgar's ports of GIMP or Abiword may require horrible crutches and feel alien compared to the rest of the OS - but that's true for pretty much any 68k software aswell.

If you insist on using Amiga software for personal reasons ("used to it", "this is not a Linux box"...) - you'd always be stuck in the nineties. 'Would' be stuck, because you'll just leave instead and use a more modern setup.

What 68k software is left that works properly under OS4/MOS and can not be replaced by native application? I can think of IBrowse (resolved soon) and Pagestream, plus maybe some Audio editing tools (not an audio guy myself).

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pavlor 
Re: AMIGA A1222
Posted on 3-Dec-2017 14:24:01
#102 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@cgutjahr

Myself, I prefer PPaint (sure, there is OS4 version) and TvPaint (68k forever) over native alternatives. Also MysticView suits my needs more than any other picture viewer. Even very minor utility BarClock looks better with my customized theme than native clocks for the titlebar. My favourite Angband variant (EyAngband) is 68k only - of course this one is useable in UAE, but I´m used to OS4 features (bigger resolution, anti-aliased fonts etc.).

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BigD 
Re: AMIGA A1222
Posted on 3-Dec-2017 14:26:39
#103 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 7307
From: UK

@cgutjahr

Quote:
Pretty much all 68k software is at least 20 years old by now and becomes more useless with every day that passes.


That is simply not true. Some things we wanted to achieve in the 90s are still things we want to achieve today! The likes of DrawStudio 2, Deluxe Paint and PageStream are still useful today. Amiga Web Browsers obviously are less useful the older they are but that is not true of everything!

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

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cgutjahr 
Re: AMIGA A1222
Posted on 3-Dec-2017 14:48:58
#104 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 969
From: Unknown

@pavlor

Quote:

I prefer

I was discussing the "zero software vs. 68k software" claim, not personal preference.

Like I said - people who insist on using the old software, usually move on. Like you did: if I remember correctly, you never owned PPC hardware? This is not a dig, just saying you apparently decided at one point that the old software didn't cut it anymore. And now, 20 years later, you look at it through rose tinted glassed.

Quote:

My favourite Angband variant (EyAngband) is 68k only

Actually, since it's a Linux port, it's 68k, Windows, Mac and Linux only. If you don't like emulators, run it on whatever OS you're using to run emulated AmigaOS on.

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cgutjahr 
Re: AMIGA A1222
Posted on 3-Dec-2017 14:55:27
#105 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 969
From: Unknown

@BigD

Quote:

DrawStudio 2, Deluxe Paint and PageStream

DeluxePaint doesn't work on OS4 anyway, I already mentioned Pagestream as one of the few examples of useful 68k software. As for vector graphics, there's Sketchblock and ZuneFig (the latter being AROS only atm, but that could be rectified).


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pavlor 
Re: AMIGA A1222
Posted on 3-Dec-2017 15:02:10
#106 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@cgutjahr

Quote:
just saying you apparently decided at one point that the old software didn't cut it anymore.


Well, I see it otherwise, my old software I still use today works better on newer hardware...

Quote:
And now, 20 years later, you look at it through rose tinted glassed.


I never ceased to use Amiga software. To be more precise significant part of my computer time is still spent on Amiga (WinUAE). That is why I´m waiting for Tabor as I´m OS4 addicted and want more.

Quote:
run it on whatever OS you're using to run emulated AmigaOS on.


You never played Angband on Amiga? Amiga versions are better than ports for other platforms (Amiga menus for most used commands etc.).

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Zylesea 
Re: AMIGA A1222
Posted on 3-Dec-2017 15:19:19
#107 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 16-Mar-2004
Posts: 2263
From: Ostwestfalen, FRG

@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote:
@Zylesea

If anyone want to use Amiga-like OS on "x86", there is AROS for that purpose... and free of charge. What more can offer MorphOS x64? Nice skin/theme?

Well on ppc the same is true for OS4. Why reinventig the wheel when MorphOS was there already? Just as a reminder MorphOS was 1st on ppc, OS4 came in then and messed up the community.
But thing is, MorphOS x86 will probably be a bit different than AROS (which I apreciate a lot),. With a compatibility break you are a bit more free to change things, AROS is not that free. And regarding the OS quality, AROS coders doing a great job, but still MorphOS is a bit more finetuned and balanced. Things regarding MorphOS x64 aren't set in stone yet though.
Quote:

Open source MorphOS, merge with AROS and create ultimate free Amiga-like OS. That would make sense.


Albeit I am not a strict believer in "OS makeds everything better" I woudn't necessarily say no to that...

_________________
My programs: via.bckrs.de
MorphOS user since V0.4 (2001)

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pavlor 
Re: AMIGA A1222
Posted on 3-Dec-2017 15:47:26
#108 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@Zylesea

Quote:
Well on ppc the same is true for OS4. Why reinventig the wheel when MorphOS was there already? Just as a reminder MorphOS was 1st on ppc, OS4 came in then and messed up the community.


It is obvious MorphOS was not "Amiga enough" for greater part of the Amiga community... Ironic is, MorphOS would have been AmigaOS4, if MorphOS developers agreed to Amiga.Inc terms back in 2001. It was their biggest mistake and doomed any hope for sustained commercial development of MorphOS (and the Amiga platform).

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cgutjahr 
Re: AMIGA A1222
Posted on 3-Dec-2017 16:17:20
#109 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 969
From: Unknown

@pavlor

Quote:

Well, I see it otherwise, my old software I still use today works better on newer hardware...

Where you've been running it using a dedicated emulator for the last 15 or 20 years... Only a theoretical x86 port of OS4 would have to run it transparently for some reason? That doesn't make sense.

Quote:

Amiga versions are better than ports for other platforms (Amiga menus for most used commands etc.).

My point was: It's open source - using open source software as an argument as to why OS4 would have to keep binary compatibility is silly. Ask somebody to compile it for OS4 - problem solved.

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pavlor 
Re: AMIGA A1222
Posted on 3-Dec-2017 16:27:44
#110 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@cgutjahr

Quote:
That doesn't make sense.


As if Amiga users were commanded by logic.

If dedicated harware fulfills my Amiga needs better than an emulator, why not use it?

Quote:
Ask somebody to compile it for OS4 - problem solved.


Scores of developers waiting for my wishes. This is core problem of our platform today - lack of developers to even maintain older software. With MorphOS on new hardware without any sensible backward compatibility, this problem will be even more apparent.

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BigD 
Re: AMIGA A1222
Posted on 3-Dec-2017 17:59:55
#111 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 7307
From: UK

@cgutjahr

Quote:
DeluxePaint doesn't work on OS4 anyway


I am told that Deluxe Paint IV does indeed work on OS4.

Dan Wood:

Quote:
No need to miss Dpaint if you use OS 4 though, Deluxe Paint III and IV run just fine on OS4, never got 5 to work though.


LINK

Although animation may be an issue

Quote:
4 AGA runs ok on OS4, apart from the animation feature iirc.

Last edited by BigD on 03-Dec-2017 at 06:01 PM.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

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cgutjahr 
Re: AMIGA A1222
Posted on 3-Dec-2017 18:01:51
#112 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 969
From: Unknown

@pavlor
Quote:

If dedicated harware fulfills my Amiga needs better than an emulator, why not use it?

I don't get that - you never bought "dedicated hardware"?

You are running your old software under an emulator now, but you'll only use OS4 if it lets you run that same software without using a dedicated emulator - that doesn't make much sense, IMHO. But as your defence seems to be "I'm nuts", we can agree on that

Quote:

Scores of developers waiting for my wishes.

Well - you're the one asking them to keep 68k compatibility because you want to run MysticView.

Quote:

This is core problem of our platform today

The 'platform' is dead, it died nearly a decade ago. We're discussing a purely hypothetical scenario.

Last edited by cgutjahr on 03-Dec-2017 at 06:07 PM.

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pavlor 
Re: AMIGA A1222
Posted on 3-Dec-2017 18:16:25
#113 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@cgutjahr

Quote:
I don't get that - you never bought "dedicated hardware"?


It is simple. I thought emulation will suffice my needs, but then I got OS4 and temptation to buy new hardware is now too high.

Quote:
Well - you're the one asking them to keep 68k compatibility because you want to run MysticView.


And EyAngband and TvPaint...

Quote:
The 'platform' is dead, it died nearly a decade ago. We're discussing a purely hypothetical scenario.


Well, intention of MorphOS team to change CPU platform is known, we are discussing possible implications of such move. Even with my rose-tinted-glasses I see difficulties you evidently underestimate.

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OlafS25 
Re: AMIGA A1222
Posted on 3-Dec-2017 18:26:57
#114 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6321
From: Unknown

@cgutjahr

I am a little wondering what you are talking about ... ;)

The "mainstream" train has long left the station, modern operating systems are covering even every niche with huge number of users and software base. There is no room for anything else. Amiga today is a for most existing users a pure retro platform. Those people want to use the old software, nobody expects it to be as useable as Windows, Mac or Linux.

A new up-to-date amiga platform is theory anyway but if we assume there would be one who should use it and why? The old software would not be portable to it, perhaps more modern software could be ported but then what would be the advantage to existing operating systems?

Amiga is retro and perhaps user base grows enough for at least small developments, that would be a lot already. Everything else is just day dreaming...

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pavlor 
Re: AMIGA A1222
Posted on 3-Dec-2017 18:39:03
#115 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@OlafS25

Exactly.

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cgutjahr 
Re: AMIGA A1222
Posted on 3-Dec-2017 21:33:16
#116 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 969
From: Unknown

@OlafS25

Quote:

who should use it and why? The old software would not be portable to it,

The old software would not be a reason to use AmigaOS anyway. Why use AmigaOS? Because you like AmigaOS, obviously. I still miss its "mean and lean" approach where it doesn't support multiple users logged in simultaneously and no OS component except the TCP stack has any idea about networking - but in return you get a very fast, very responsive and very non-intimidating operating system.

Quote:

There is no room for anything else

Quite the contrary. With hardware that cheap, well documented and easily available, there's plenty of room for plenty of projects. A thousand users who used to own an Amiga, another thousand who want to feel special by using the most exotic OS ever, and a bunch of people who like challenges. There's your niche.

@pavlor:

Quote:

Even with my rose-tinted-glasses I see difficulties you evidently underestimate.

I've actually been using OS4 as my main OS at home for quite a few years. Like I said, I'm no audio/music guy, so I can't judge the situation in that departement. But in my experience, 68k compatibility was extremely important initially but became increasingly redundant over the years.

Unless you insist on using a particular piece of software, of course - but in that case, your peers could insist on you using a particular version of AmigaOS instead of demanding backwards compatibility from newer versions for all eternity.

In case of a switch to a different processor architecture, PPC compatibility might be a much, much bigger problem. Because most people who developed software for either OS4 or MorphOS are gone now - and in typical Amiga fashion, the sources are not available.

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bison 
Re: AMIGA A1222
Posted on 3-Dec-2017 22:23:41
#117 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 2112
From: N-Space

@cha05e90

Quote:
...and replacing it with another more or less Desktop-unusable ISA is a good idea? I can't see any sense in this. At least we have system with P.A. Semi or Motorola/Freescale desktop CPUs.
I have seen those "ARM-Devices" that pretended to be a desktop system, mostly Linux or RiscOS. I was not impressed. If you really want to have a poor AmigaOS 4.x experience just use UAE - that is even cheaper than ARM, 'cos you already own one (a x64/86 PC, I assume).

My only experience with ARM is the Raspberry Pi, and I am suitably impressed. The Pi 3 runs Debian reasonable well, and that is an OS with resource demands much higher than AmigaOS. The biggest constraint is that it only has 1 GB RAM. A slightly higher spec system with more memory -- for example, a Cortex-A55 quad-core running at 2.0 GHz with 4 or 8 GB RAM -- would make a very fine (and inexpensive) AmigaOS system.

_________________
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wawa 
Re: AMIGA A1222
Posted on 4-Dec-2017 9:23:38
#118 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@pavlor

Quote:
Well, QT, AmiCygnix, CodeBench, Sketchblock, Blender, Emotion, NetSurf, or Odyssey were quite big projects - to name few I have on my HDD...


even though quite big projects, these are mostly ports, sometimes delivering frontend gui to an open source core, like netsurf, emotion or odyssey, which by the way is a complete port from morphos by itself.

of that all only codebench and sketchbook can pass as dedicated software.

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wawa 
Re: AMIGA A1222
Posted on 4-Dec-2017 9:44:47
#119 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@cgutjahr

Quote:
Pretty much all 68k software is at least 20 years old by now and becomes more useless with every day that passes.


productivity software, yes, for most part you are right. but i wasnt really insisting in using an amiga for general productivity today. neither would i do that for any of ng options.

so point remains. no matter quality or application, software daily released today for amiga out numbers that for os4, morphos and aros all together.

Last edited by wawa on 04-Dec-2017 at 09:46 AM.
Last edited by wawa on 04-Dec-2017 at 09:46 AM.

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AdvancedFollower 
Re: AMIGA A1222
Posted on 4-Dec-2017 10:27:28
#120 ]
Member
Joined: 29-Aug-2017
Posts: 79
From: Sweden

Quote:
My only experience with ARM is the Raspberry Pi, and I am suitably impressed. The Pi 3 runs Debian reasonable well, and that is an OS with resource demands much higher than AmigaOS. The biggest constraint is that it only has 1 GB RAM. A slightly higher spec system with more memory -- for example, a Cortex-A55 quad-core running at 2.0 GHz with 4 or 8 GB RAM -- would make a very fine (and inexpensive) AmigaOS system.


Boards like the Asus Tinkerboard, Odroid XU4 etc. only cost a little bit more ($60 - $80) and are significantly more powerful. The Raspberry Pi is amazing for ~$30, but it's very low-end as far as ARM devices go, not really representative of the ARM ISA. It works better for hobby projects than as a complete desktop replacement computer, which it was never meant to be.

Of course there are inexpensive x86 systems available too, so I don't know what advantages ARM would bring over x86 other than "not being x86", which is apparently still important to some. But who knows how long x86 will last... Windows is on the decline, Intel have discontinued their low-cost, low-power Atom line, and ARM is utterly dominating in the mobile space (tablets, phones).

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