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Hypex 
Re: AMIGA A1222
Posted on 6-Dec-2017 12:35:48
#141 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia

@OlafS25

As jPV said MOS has 68K JIT in Trance. I do know 68K exists in a sandbox. And it supports things like exceptions that are broken in OS4.

What I propose isn't exactly a JIT. More like an ALT. At Load Time emulation. All the code would be converted in one hit. It would work like Java byte code. Instead it would be Power word code.

But as to the API. It would need a translation layer anyway for system calls so I don't see this as a problem. Just trap old calls into new calls.

Sure UAE can emulate PPC but emulating an old Amiga to run PPC code is a bit superfluous. Best use QEMU for that by itself at that point.

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StarF 
Re: AMIGA A1222
Posted on 6-Dec-2017 13:57:03
#142 ]
Member
Joined: 5-Dec-2009
Posts: 11
From: Unknown

@bison

Quote:

bison wrote:
@StarF

Welcome to Amigaworld.

Quote:
Hell mabye talk to Matthew Dillon and get Dragonfly BSD...


Dragonfly would be a good base system. One could use FS-UAE for running old apps, and create a custom Wayland-based compositor and a new toolkit that's about 1/10th the size of GTK+ or Qt for creating new apps. It could be a nice system.

The toolkit is were the Linux desktop is really missing it at present. GTK+ is a pain to use, the documentation is bad or non-existent, the community is generally unhelpful, and the API keeps changing with each new version of Gnome. There's opportunity for creating a system that programmers actually want to write software for.


I agree it would cost a lot of money, and time. But it has a good fundation, and even some amiga core ideas. I really think using that, could create one awesome system. os4 feel to much like os 3. patchet up, and forced to do stuff it wasent supposed to do from the start. It will never become modern...

I dont get why people dislike Unix system so much, after all chaos (the first amiga os that never got finished) would also be a unix like system.

any way that is just what i hoped would happen, and what i would do if i had the power to chose. But i know this will never happen .. use the kernel, develop a new guy with a proper tool kit...

thanks for the welcome :)

Last edited by StarF on 06-Dec-2017 at 01:59 PM.

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StarF 
Re: AMIGA A1222
Posted on 6-Dec-2017 14:04:12
#143 ]
Member
Joined: 5-Dec-2009
Posts: 11
From: Unknown

@WolfpackN64

Quote:
@StarF While I agree that Dragonfly BSD is quite nice, I doubt that people will be enthousiastic about yet another Unix like OS posing as a Classic OS. While that worked out for Apple in the long run, it was only because they could keep throwing money at an OS that was at its inception, save architecturally, inferior in all ways to it's classic predecessor.


yes it would cost a lot of money. But also save some, if you want a modern system. os4 just feels like an old os 3 patchet up, to be something its not.. It would still cost a lot of money, and people would argue that its not "amiga" any more.. i still think thought it could become a pretty neat and modern system, as it already has some amiga core ideas implanted, just bring in the rest, and create a new toolkit, and gui...

as for gui, look at Enlightenment, combined with a few amiga touches here and there... now thats something i could get in love with.

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simplex 
Re: AMIGA A1222
Posted on 6-Dec-2017 14:24:07
#144 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Oct-2003
Posts: 896
From: Hattiesburg, MS

@WolfpackN64 @blakespot

Quote:
Well, I used my Mac's extensively in the transition period and Mac OS X wasn't all roses and sunshine in the early days. It got a lot better, but I'm starting to get tired of macOS at this point.

I don't think Apple ever quite sorted out its UI issues. They have human interface guidelines ("had"?) but they have a record of ignoring them when they want. Lately they've been trying to make it more iOS-like and the result has been increasing unpleasant: inconsistencies with past behavior, bizarre new command shortcuts, ... . And of course their development environment updates routinely break things.

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bison 
Re: AMIGA A1222
Posted on 6-Dec-2017 16:44:23
#145 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 2112
From: N-Space

@StarF

Quote:
I dont get why people dislike Unix system so much, after all chaos (the first amiga os that never got finished) would also be a unix like system.

Unix has a long learning curve, and people who don't make it to the top tend to fall back to the "Unix sucks" position out of frustration. Linux has inherited this.

And parts of it are actually quite bad. There's a great deal of inconsistency between commands, for example, since they were written by a large and disconnected group of people. The Fortran-era linking is a pain. And I can't really name a shell that I like better than bash, and bash is just horrible. But it's still a usable system.

AmigaOS is nicer in a lot of ways, but it's also completely obsolete. This is the crux of The Problem.

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Zylesea 
Re: AMIGA A1222
Posted on 6-Dec-2017 20:18:31
#146 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 16-Mar-2004
Posts: 2263
From: Ostwestfalen, FRG

@OlafS25

Quote:

OlafS25 wrote:
@jPV

on morph zone one of the core developer admitted that 68k would be integrated as emulation, not JIT. I cannot remember who but I could try to find it.

As already said MorphOS PPC has a 68k emulator since ages, the JIT is public since IIRC 1.4 days or even earlier (at least longer than OS4) and internally it was available since some 0.x version.

For MorphOS x64 there will be no 68k JIT within the system. For some reasons: API changes and most importantly, byte ordering (the same reason a 68k JIT for Aros x86 is not doable).
The JIT is really only a translator for actual code, once the code war processed by the 68 emulator the OS does not know wether a particular piece of instructions was 68k or ppc native from the beginning. Hence, the OS cannot handle exceptions for 68k code and when accessing OS or data structures in a little endian system but assuming you run on a big endian system this will ineviteably crash.

Keeping out endian issues is one main reason to stick with ppc¹.
My personal opinion is that for the future it is of course a bit sad to sacrify the seemless compability, but on a real powerful system the emulation of an entire environment is not a big issue and hence, the better trade off when you get raw power and an OS with the needed API changes (SMP, 64 bit adressing and maybe a few other things) in exchange.

Bottom line; current MorphOS has a perfectly integrated JIT, future MorphOS x64 will probably not come with such a solution.


--
¹) ARM is no real alternative in this regard as most ARMs don't offer real bi-endianess. Some are little endian only, some offer partly big endianess and some offer real bi-endianess. IIRC the newer and powerful ARMs offer little endianess only.

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ne_one 
Re: AMIGA A1222
Posted on 7-Dec-2017 2:24:21
#147 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Jun-2005
Posts: 905
From: Unknown

@StarF

Quote:

yes it would cost a lot of money. But also save some...

as for gui, look at Enlightenment, combined with a few amiga touches here and there... now thats something i could get in love with.


Using Dragonfly as the foundation of a modern AmigaOS would be eminently feasible.

The very idea of it not being "Amiga-like" is asinine. What exactly makes an Amiga an Amiga? Hand-optimized assembly code?

The Mac is a perfect example of how you can change something fundamentally and users either don't know or don't care. The CPU and OS core were swapped out and a decade later no one bats an eyelash.

Last edited by ne_one on 07-Dec-2017 at 02:24 AM.

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whose 
Re: AMIGA A1222
Posted on 7-Dec-2017 9:09:50
#148 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2005
Posts: 893
From: Germany

@ne_one

That is just because it is the MacOS application software that didn“t change. Apple wanted to go the capitalist way by making more profit of lesser effort, that“s it. There wasn“t any technical reason for this step (regardless of what is being told now. History is rewritten as needed to support a "messiah" fairy tale...)

Actually, AmigaOS lives from being AmigaOS, because the application software isn“t, well, widely accepted. Changing the OS core wouldn“t change anything with this (besides being much slower than it is right now).

Changing the OS core in the hope to get more "open source" software won“t change anything, either. The point here is: it“s much cheaper to use OS software on an x86 open source OS and it is pointless to exchange e.g. Linux by a unixoid AmigaOS just to get at least the same software (which is, IMHO, most of the time quite crappy, regardless if it is used by a vast majority or not).

At least, because most of the time you“ll hang out with older versions because of developer support shortage (as it is right now). So, no big change at all.

Summary: if you want to use some Unix-like OS, go buy a cheap x86 PC or ARM board and be happy with whatever OS you want to use. But, please, leave AmigaOS alone. Or concentrate on the application software problem istead.

Edit: is it just me or is editing broken? I just get empty text field if I try to edit a text, e.g. for typos.

Last edited by whose on 07-Dec-2017 at 09:14 AM.

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BigD 
Re: AMIGA A1222
Posted on 7-Dec-2017 9:22:36
#149 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 7307
From: UK

@whose

Quote:
Edit: is it just me or is editing broken? I just get empty text field if I try to edit a text, e.g. for typos.


Yes, editing is broken especially if you have lots of links, images or anything complicated the edit screen shows an empty message box! Not good!

In regards to AmigaOS. The priority should be (as A-EON have clocked) the acquisition of important legacy software to recommence development for AmigaOS 4.x. If we could also get Deluxe Paint (for animation) and PageStream I believe that along with Hollywood and Blender and Libre Office may allow more people to come back to the platform.

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KimmoK 
Re: AMIGA A1222
Posted on 7-Dec-2017 9:56:31
#150 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5211
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@BigD

" If we could also get Deluxe Paint (for animation)"

I wonder if PersonalPaint has compareable animation capabilities under the hood... I've just not found it / not learned enough to use them ...

...perhaps we just need load of tutorials to get us oldies to learn "new" tools to replace those 30 year old ones....

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// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

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BigD 
Re: AMIGA A1222
Posted on 7-Dec-2017 11:55:45
#151 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 7307
From: UK

@KimmoK

Or just buy the sources or license for ongoing use and development of the Amiga version from EA. It's not as if EA has gone bankrupt and versions of Deluxe Paint were used internally for bitmap production until the late 90s. IFF files are still used in The Sims!

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Trixie 
Re: AMIGA A1222
Posted on 7-Dec-2017 12:43:40
#152 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 1-Sep-2003
Posts: 2089
From: Czech Republic

@BigD

Quote:
The priority should be (as A-EON have clocked) the acquisition of important legacy software to recommence development for AmigaOS 4.x.

Sorry but this is utter b*ll*cks. Legacy software reflects old thinking and outdated technologies; why on earth would we want to make this a priority??? If there's something A-EON should NOT DO is flaunt any more money on old software. Rather, projects like RadeonHD drivers and Warp3D Nova - i .e projects bridging the technology gap between us and the real computing world - are the way to ge and should be a priority. Certainly not spending cash to coax a 20-year-old program to do modern tricks.

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Daedalus 
Re: AMIGA A1222
Posted on 7-Dec-2017 14:12:52
#153 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 1680
From: Glasgow - UK, Irish born

@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote:

Or just buy the sources or license for ongoing use and development of the Amiga version from EA.


But if PPaint can do the same or a similar job, why waste money on DPaint? I guess there may be features that DPaint has that PPaint lacks, but it's already available in an OS4 version, so adding the missing features there might be much easier than porting the entire of DPaint, which struggles to work correctly even on a classic with RTG. That would indicate that a port might actually be a far bigger job than just getting the sources and recompiling.

Also PPaint has many excellent features DPaint lacks, such as exporting animations and animbrushes as GIFs, import and export of many file formats plus datatypes, and the OS4 version even has a true colour animation storyboard so thumbnails of animations with palette changes are shown correctly.

Last edited by Daedalus on 07-Dec-2017 at 02:14 PM.

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simplex 
Re: AMIGA A1222
Posted on 7-Dec-2017 14:56:04
#154 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Oct-2003
Posts: 896
From: Hattiesburg, MS

To the contrary, MacOS development had become a hot mess and several efforts to replace it in house had failed completely. (Taligent, Copland, ...) Acquiring NeXTStep was almost certainly the one correct thing they did at that time; for over a decade it had been doing all the technical things Apple had proven incapable of doing themselves. It was in real, life use at the time and worked on multiple architectures (68k, x86, PowerPC, probably others), giving Apple significant flexibility (which they eventually opted to use when they switch to x86). Apple have been able to build on it for the future: not just OSX but iOS.

Had Apple really wanted to make "more profit for less effort," they would have done what those jokers at Gateway did in the 90s: bought Amiga's IP, aborted an attempt to make something serious out of it, then continued to make unremarkable PC compatibles.

Last edited by simplex on 07-Dec-2017 at 02:57 PM.

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WolfpackN64 
Re: AMIGA A1222
Posted on 7-Dec-2017 15:46:54
#155 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 8-Oct-2016
Posts: 300
From: Unknown

@simplex

That's one way to look at it, but many of these "failed attempts" got re-integrated into Mac OS, lending if multiprocessing capabilities and making the OS quite extensible. Mac OS was also quite portable, parts being used in Newton OS and Magic Cap.

I really don't buy the "NeXTStep saved Apple from a failing product". Mac OS could just as well have been developped further.

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simplex 
Re: AMIGA A1222
Posted on 7-Dec-2017 16:12:35
#156 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Oct-2003
Posts: 896
From: Hattiesburg, MS

@WolfpackN64

Quote:
I really don't buy the "NeXTStep saved Apple from a failing product". Mac OS could just as well have been developped further.

We can agree to disagree, but keep in mind that Copland was such a mess that Apple brought in outside talent to take over engineering, and even they concluded MacOS development had become hopeless. Apple looked at several options before purchasing NeXT. One of these included Be, whose management and investors suffered from delusions of grandeur and demanded far too much for what they had. (Eventually they sold to Palm for 1/10 of what Apple had offered.)

Last edited by simplex on 07-Dec-2017 at 04:13 PM.

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cgutjahr 
Re: AMIGA A1222
Posted on 7-Dec-2017 16:52:59
#157 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 969
From: Unknown

@Trixie

Quote:

Certainly not spending cash to coax a 20-year-old program to do modern tricks.

Exactly. This only makes (short term) sense from a vender's point of view ("they're gonna hand over cash for this, because it's Amiiiiga!!!!"), it's useless for the platform and/or as a mid/long term strategy.

This 'fear' of ports from other platforms is complete nonsense anyway. Turrican 1 and 2 were ports, I never heard anybody complain about those.

@Daedalus:

Quote:

But if PPaint can do the same or a similar job, why waste money on DPaint?

DPaint is still umatched in the animation department, AFAIK. But both DPaint and PPaint are dead - there's a reason, PPaint's original developer gave it away for free 20 years ago...

There are several free (as in freedom), cross-plattform paint programs inspired by DPaint or Brilliance, like GrafX2. Updating these means reaching a bigger audience and thus getting help from other developers.

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pavlor 
Re: AMIGA A1222
Posted on 7-Dec-2017 17:07:18
#158 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@StarF

Such radical upgrade would need far more manpower than available today in all Amiga factions combined. Just look at OS4 - even basic drivers take too much time.

There is one interesting aspect in OS4 port for Tabor: entire FPU must be emulated. Why not take this to another level and create basic CPU independent PowerPC emulator in HAL. AmigaOS could then work on any CPU architecture with all current applications, new programs could be compiled for the alien CPU architecture (like e500v2 SPE now). Call it Amithlon NG or AmigaDE (Bill McEwen“s vision of Amiga fulfilled ).

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wawa 
Re: AMIGA A1222
Posted on 7-Dec-2017 17:35:26
#159 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@cgutjahr

Quote:
because it's Amiiiiga!!!!


practically everybody is here "because its amigaaa!!" (tm) inclusive trixie, me and you.

nevertheless, may i remind you, that whatever aeon or whoever else might undertake to secure "future of the platform" it would be unreasonable by definition. wherther they buy out old software, or waste money on linux (subsystem) ports or exotic hardware, it wont make any sense in a long term. in comparison with whatever amiga general technology has reached escape velocity, even for that simple reason that this technology and its progress defines all the space around you and all coordinates themselves, you might happen navigate by.

whatever relatively modern os replacement you guys may come up with, to stamp an amiga label on, wont get any general accpetance with community. the attitudes towards aros on one hand o vampire on the other, indicate that pretty well.

Last edited by wawa on 07-Dec-2017 at 05:39 PM.
Last edited by wawa on 07-Dec-2017 at 05:38 PM.

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mr2 
Re: AMIGA A1222
Posted on 7-Dec-2017 21:54:07
#160 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 3-Feb-2004
Posts: 691
From: Poland

Back on topic.....

From Daniel's post...

Three Tower57 port Tabor fun facts:

- the latest SPE build reaches up to 80 fps. This simply demolishs the sam460ex, factor 2.

- when running the latest FPU (!) build on the Tabor it reaches up to 40 fps (!) (old OS version, first fpu-emu).

- when running the latest FPU build on the sam460ex it reaches up to 40 fps.
So the Tabor is even en par with the sam460 if running the version which is incompatible with its FPU :)

And before you say sth. a la "then you optimized away most fpu instructions"...
Wrong, think, man, think - and don't forget that the SPE build runs twice as fast... Yeah, the SPE is a pretty fast FPU unit indeed, but looking at the emu-speed that whole A1222 delivers (y)

Still anybody out there making up stories about the A1222's performance compared to the SAMs or about the power of the SPE? LOL 😂

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