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g01df1sh 
First to SMP
Posted on 16-Jan-2018 12:52:14
#1 ]
Super Member
Joined: 16-Apr-2009
Posts: 1382
From: UK

Hi

Who will be first to SMP support for public use.

Amiga OS4.1/2
Morphos
Aros

One we are not aware of

????

Your thoughts

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TRIPOS 
Re: First to SMP
Posted on 16-Jan-2018 13:07:05
#2 ]
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Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 888
From: Unknown

@g01df1sh

Obviously AROS. At least with a flexible definition of ”public use”...

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wawa 
Re: First to SMP
Posted on 16-Jan-2018 13:09:06
#3 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5916
From: Unknown

@g01df1sh

what do you mean "with for public use"? as we know aros (x64) (i think the nightly is public) has few demo utilities. but the necessity for smp on those systems is rather theoretical. what concerns huge apps perhaps a compiler and a browser could take advantage of it. but i doubt it will be enabled any soon, the number of users is simply too low in any camp, and everybody in his right mind takes pc in that case.

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g01df1sh 
Re: First to SMP
Posted on 16-Jan-2018 13:50:58
#4 ]
Super Member
Joined: 16-Apr-2009
Posts: 1382
From: UK

@wawa

Hi Maybe I should of also added memory protection as well. I have not used OS4.1 on native system yet. but as far as I know it still does crash quite easily if a program is badly written. How useful is the current MP in OS4 and other Amiga OS systems.

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wawa 
Re: First to SMP
Posted on 16-Jan-2018 14:04:43
#5 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5916
From: Unknown

@g01df1sh

Quote:
Hi Maybe I should of also added memory protection as well.

remove shared memory space and passing messages via pointers in order to implement memory protection and there is nothing amiga-like left in such a system. take some off shelf linux instead.

Last edited by wawa on 16-Jan-2018 at 02:05 PM.
Last edited by wawa on 16-Jan-2018 at 02:05 PM.

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megol 
Re: First to SMP
Posted on 16-Jan-2018 14:34:45
#6 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 17-Mar-2008
Posts: 209
From: Unknown

@wawa

Why would those thing need to be removed? Most operating systems provide shared memory to speed up communications between processes and message passing can still be done with pointers with some limitations.

The most obvious way to make an Amigoid system with protection would be a shared address space with protection (single address space operating system - SASOS), the most obvious way to have efficient no-copy message passing would make at least messages readable for all but still owned by the sender. Message queues would be managed by the kernel as would signals etc.

It wouldn't be suitable for multi-user systems perhaps but who cares?

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TRIPOS 
Re: First to SMP
Posted on 16-Jan-2018 14:56:23
#7 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 888
From: Unknown

@g01df1sh

Amiga is per definition a single core, big-endian system with 31-bit addressable unified memory. Breach any of this and you have per definition broken the Amiga compatibility.

Hence - if you breach one of these things, you may as well breach them all, since true and full Amiga compatibility is broken by then anyway!

So:

  • You want real memory protection, resource tracking, etc? Then you might as well go for 64-bit SMP on a small endian system as well.

  • You want SMP? Then you might as well go for a real memory protection on small endian 64-bit a small endian system as well.

  • You want a future on a different ISA than PPC, like a small endian Intel or ARM? Then you might as well go for SMP with real protected 64-bit memory space adapted and enabled for full 64-bit computing platforms like x64 or ARMv8 as well.


See?

MorphOS and OS4 is different from AROS in that they have always aimed for full and true Amiga compatibility where original Amiga 68k applications and even OS components will run unchanged in the same environment as PPC applications and OS components, sharing exactly the same resources, the same memory space, scheduled by the same scheduler, etc. Theoretically you can take an Amiga HDD and put it in a MorphOS or OS4 system and continue using the Amiga applications that is on it (which is especially true with MorphOS since it has a noticeably higher Amiga compatibility). AROS on the other hand has from the start been developed with different objectives in mind, hence compiling a system for a small endian x86 and then (re)compiling the (source compatible) Amiga apps for the same platform (kind of like Linux) is not seen as a big deal, that's simply the path they took. But this is not how MorphOS or OS4 did things.

In 2011 though, the MorphOS Team announced they had begun an effort of creating a "Next Generation" MorphOS that will no longer be held back by old Amiga restraints. Hence MorphOS will continue to live on another ISA (even small endian) now when PPC is dead. X64 has been mentioned as a target, but they have also said that platform choice will be determined later on. Hence it will be 64-bit. Etc. They will also take the opportunity to remove various oddities and ancient technologies of the Amiga that is no longer relevant and does no longer serve a practical purpose.

Not much is known about what it will be like and how things will be implemented, but it will not be binary compatible to Amiga anymore. It will not even be source-compatible, although it has been said that required changes to code are minimal.

Last edited by TRIPOS on 16-Jan-2018 at 02:57 PM.

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TRIPOS 
Re: First to SMP
Posted on 16-Jan-2018 15:04:26
#8 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 888
From: Unknown

@megol

Either memory is fully protected, or it is to be considered as open and unprotected. Grey-scales in this area is simply bizarre.

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megol 
Re: First to SMP
Posted on 16-Jan-2018 15:09:08
#9 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 17-Mar-2008
Posts: 209
From: Unknown

@TRIPOS

So you define the terms every other person should use? Now that's arrogance!

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michalsc 
Re: First to SMP
Posted on 16-Jan-2018 15:17:33
#10 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 14-Jun-2005
Posts: 225
From: Germany

@g01df1sh

Please go to AROS download page and pick "smp-pc-x86_64-boot-iso".

Congratulations! You've just downloaded 64-bit AROS with some kind of SMP support and support for a lot of memory (well, tested up to 32 or 64GB). Free, for public use (although experimental and not 100% stable).

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Cool_amigaN 
Re: First to SMP
Posted on 16-Jan-2018 15:44:39
#11 ]
Super Member
Joined: 6-Oct-2006
Posts: 1176
From: Athens/Greece

@wawa

Quote:

wawa wrote:
@g01df1sh

Quote:
Hi Maybe I should of also added memory protection as well.

remove shared memory space and passing messages via pointers in order to implement memory protection and there is nothing amiga-like left in such a system. take some off shelf linux instead.


If any linux distro could offer the same level of compatibility like MorphOS does with a gazillion of original amiga applications, we wouldn't have been doing this very same discussion regarding MP but anyone would have converted already.

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wawa 
Re: First to SMP
Posted on 16-Jan-2018 16:16:06
#12 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5916
From: Unknown

@Cool_amigaN

Quote:
If any linux distro could offer the same level of compatibility like MorphOS does with a gazillion of original amiga applications, we wouldn't have been doing this very same discussion regarding MP but anyone would have converted already.


but an amiga system clone/reimplementation equipped with smp and memory protection wouldnt either provide backwards compatibility, so it would be as useless as linux in this respect.

perhaps what megol proposes could be done. but i suspect if it was compatible enough it would already be implemented in aros and enabled on m68k target, which doesnt seem to be the case, most likely for the exact reason of maintaining backwards compatibility, maybe michalsc can tell something about it.

so called amiga ng sytems offer partioal protection restricting memory areas against werite access afair. however clever these solutions are, who knows, as long as sources are closed.

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michalsc 
Re: First to SMP
Posted on 16-Jan-2018 17:10:24
#13 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 14-Jun-2005
Posts: 225
From: Germany

@wawa

Quote:
perhaps what megol proposes could be done. but i suspect if it was compatible enough it would already be implemented in aros and enabled on m68k target, which doesnt seem to be the case, most likely for the exact reason of maintaining backwards compatibility, maybe michalsc can tell something about it.


Well, I was discussing idea of SASOS long time with some devs but we gave up that idea not because of feasibility, but rather because 32-bit address space is very scarce. Right now, with 64-bit AROS and its large memory support plus plenty of address space, SASOS could be re-considered again, at least as some sort of experiment.

One could, for example assign address space to tasks in e.g. 1GB chunks outside of available RAM, spreading them in entire 48-bit area. That would result in 2^18 of such one gigabyte chunks (I bet enough for most uses). Since the layout of virtual memory would be in principle the same from point of view of each task, message passing by pointers and memory sharing would be still feasible. Who knows, maybe some day one of AROS devs will give it a try? :)

BTW. Such solution could open some fancy possibilities such as (but not only) automatic stack expansion... ;)

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Leo 
Re: First to SMP
Posted on 16-Jan-2018 18:29:35
#14 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1578
From: Unknown

Quote:

Take some off shelf linux instead.

I don't understand why adding modern features would make AmigaOS less Amiga than it is now.

OSX got these features, it doesn't make it a Linux clone.

Same goes for BeOS.

I don't see why Amiga would have to stay old to be Amiga... It's like saying an Amiga with RTG graphics isn't an Amiga...

Last edited by Leo on 16-Jan-2018 at 06:30 PM.

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wawa 
Re: First to SMP
Posted on 16-Jan-2018 18:47:29
#15 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5916
From: Unknown

@Leo

Quote:
I don't understand why adding modern features would make AmigaOS less Amiga than it is now.


id turn the question backwards: if it isnt compatible with the legacy applications what else makes it amiga? when it gets rid of practically every legacy amiga feature, because it is an outdated concept and incorporates every linux feature it makes it at least look modern, what makes it different to linux? especially that any newer software that might be made to run on thgis would be open source linux ports.

you may say it describes aros already. at least many claim that, especially when they want to make it look bad. the both features, unified memory space and messaging by pointers, make here so far i know remaining significant technical difference.

Quote:
OSX got these features, it doesn't make it a Linux clone.


this constant referring to mac os as a close refference to amiga os is the more rediculous the more frequent and insistant. and it has been repeatedly made straight, that the image, customership, situation nor concept of both (pick whatever else angle you might want to take to look at it) have anythimg in common.

Quote:
I don't see why Amiga would have to stay old to be Amiga... It's like saying an Amiga with RTG graphics isn't an Amiga...


an rtg equipped amiga could still run non rtg and non system friendly software via chipset. system friendly software could run on either. there is no drawback here. however only rtg equipped hardware with no amiga chipset compatibility, for example draco or casablanca, were never considered amiga or particularly useful to run general purpose amiga software. thanks for proving my point.

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Signal 
Re: First to SMP
Posted on 16-Jan-2018 19:01:43
#16 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2013
Posts: 598
From: USA

@Leo

Run AmigaOS on a single processor that only interacts with other processors which control data flow, I/O, memory (including protection), where each ancillary processor can have 16 > 32 gB of fully virtual memory or peripheral address space. Problem solved.

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wawa 
Re: First to SMP
Posted on 16-Jan-2018 20:37:35
#17 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5916
From: Unknown

@Signal

you already have extended memory objects on os4. and aros (x64) can address all that memory you are talking about natively. so the problem already has been solved, so to say. tho what effect, though? does it really matters practically in the current situation of these platforms?

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wawa 
Re: First to SMP
Posted on 16-Jan-2018 20:43:05
#18 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5916
From: Unknown

@michalsc

Quote:
SASOS


interesting, while i dont fully grasp the concept. is there any good reference on web, i dont seem to come across it.

i wonder why sparceness of memory matters? is this approach wasteful by design? would that make sense to research if it was possible to introduce it on a legacy platform, such as 68k, to prove if binary compatibility could be maintained, or is it doomed to fail from the start?

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Signal 
Re: First to SMP
Posted on 16-Jan-2018 21:11:11
#19 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2013
Posts: 598
From: USA

@wawa
Oh!

Another AROS does everything better, cheaper, faster, and even cleans the sink for you thread.

Never mind.

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TRIPOS 
Re: First to SMP
Posted on 16-Jan-2018 21:29:42
#20 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 888
From: Unknown

@wawa

Quote:

wawa wrote:

to prove if binary compatibility could be maintained


Simple. Either your random legacy Amiga 68k app is allowed to peek and poke the entire 31-bit Amiga memory space (means compatible), or it's not (means incompatible).

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