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      /  It's time to join the forces - Part IV
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paolone 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 4-Feb-2018 13:32:56
#181 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Sep-2007
Posts: 1143
From: Unknown

@OlafS25, @Tomppeli

Quote:

OlafS25 wrote:
@Tomppeli

Hyperion forced that on the developer and some developer signed it. If Hyperion would officially permit that developers work together then it would certainly be possible, at least from legal side. But Hyperion is not willing to do it and I assume the same regarding MorphOS team. So the "calls for working together" popping up all 12-18 months leads to nothing


And that's where, IMHO, the utter madness steps in. If you are a big enterprise with valulable secret IPs to save from your competition's eyes, well, you need to force people working for you to sign NDAs. But what is the value of AmigaOS sources "undisclosure" today?

1. It's well documented software written 25 to 35 years ago...

2. ...whose API are so well described someone else could write a full, compatible operating system from scratch.

3. its real market is a subset of a tiny community of nostalgic people, still devoted to a commercially dead platform from the 80s

4. sources had leaked out and are easy to find anyway

5. there are always problems finding new people willing to code it, on it, or for it...

6. ...and once someone does, it's a issue to pay them for their efforts

7. all programming techniques used long ago have been deprecated in the meanwhile

8. everything in the OS is completely obsolete and unadaptable to modern hardware, to modern needs, to modern expectations

And I might still continue for long, long time.


I have read the whole thread for just another time (this "let's join the forces" discussion comes back from time to time), but unless everybody here, including the companies still involved in pointless trademarks litigations, agrees once forever that "IT'S DEAD, JIM" (thank you cdmauro), we'll never make any step further. There's no way to put together two opposite mindsets like AROS developers one ("everything is free to use and improve") and Hyperion's one ("everything has either been licensed to us, or directly our property"), and I still don't understand why the f***ing damn hell even MorphOS is still closed source. I am really sorry, but from my delusional point of view, everything here is DEAD, at least from a commercial standpoint.

Can you sell more than 10,000 items you are producing? well, you have an alive, tiny market.

Can you sell more than 100,000 items you are producing? well, you have an alive, interesting market.

Can you sell more than 500,000 items you are producing? Even better, you are alive and kickin'!

But if you are still reasoing in the 100s or 1000s units at every run, and you are struggling to sell them, well, you're not yet or no more involved in a "industry", but in a little niche whatever it is. And NOT: you're not commercially alive. You will always get the money you spend if you're lucky. You will always be forced to delay things, to struggle finding people helping you, and those people will have to wait for ages to recoup the time and the money THEY spend (AmigaONEs are the only pieces of hardware I am aware of, that ask beta-testers to pay for the samples, instead of paying them for their efforts). If you're not alive, you're dead. Simple. Even Icaros Desktop, according to my rules, is "dead": in fact there is no commerce for it, there hasn't any from day 0. Guess what was, and still is, the reason?

Is it possible that 10+ years in this situation weren't JUST ENOUGH to make people understand this ugly, yet SIMPLE reality?

It's time to stop being so bitter, so childish and so animous about this matter: we should finally let things go and let people improve on them. Look at how alive and kicking the C64 retro-scene is! They are enjoying new games and new products every week. Look at our disgrace, instead! The reason is just this stupid, foolish madness of still thinking that our platform is commercially alive. IT ISN'T. And we're not even staying foolish staying hungry: we're only staying starving.

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Hypex 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 4-Feb-2018 14:07:57
#182 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia

@paolone

At my Amiga club the other night a comment was made that if something is made free then it has no value. It related to media but I thought it was a good comment that can be related to the Amiga. And especially AmigaOS. By charging money for it do they give it value?

Obviously the Amiga hardware has no value in the outside world. It was left too late to actually do something with. Then the OS had a focus on it. That too was left behind and needed to catch up. The work never ends.

We can look at the Linux model but I don't think it would work for AmigaOS. I mean who else but an Amiga company could sponsor development? Oh wait that happens now. User sponsorship? Well there's been a few micromanaged projects. At least for AmigaOS they happened without the source.

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Samurai_Crow 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 5-Feb-2018 9:25:01
#183 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2003
Posts: 2320
From: Minnesota, USA

IMO the only viable economic model for a computer in this day and age is the Xbox One X model. In the same way that DirectX 12 is integrated into the graphics core, the entire OS would have to run from the firmware like libraries in the Kickstart. No external drivers allowed except Automount compatible ones built into the motherboard.

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nikosidis 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 5-Feb-2018 9:51:33
#184 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Dec-2008
Posts: 994
From: Norway, Oslo

@Paolone

I think you are wrong. If done right sure it is a big market for Amiga or Amiga like OS.

First you have to reach a level where you bring something steady with all the basic stuff. First of all a good browser like with have on AROS. Odyssey on AROS just needs a little love regarding video stuff and being regularly updated with webkit is all it takes.

Boundle with all the great apps. that is already for free like trackers, gfx programs. And inklude some nice games.
It is not that hard to find a platform that noone know about but realy want as long as the price is low.

For AROS it is all there. It is just a matter of someone working out a good user interface and solid software. After some tought Memory protection might not be that critical to have if the software is very well tested and rearly crash.

Marketing is nr. 1 but you got to have a good product with the right price and right now we don't have that. I don't give a F.. if it is AROS, AmigaOS or MorphOS. I for sure know that PPC is not the platform to focus on. Just read the browser thread in here and you understand why PPC has become a nightmare.



Last edited by nikosidis on 05-Feb-2018 at 10:42 AM.

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wawa 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 5-Feb-2018 11:43:41
#185 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@nikosidis

Quote:
For AROS it is all there.


since it is all there and still aros apparently isnt even more popular than other amiga offshots, i wonder how that supports your claim?

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nikosidis 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 5-Feb-2018 12:08:46
#186 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Dec-2008
Posts: 994
From: Norway, Oslo

@wawa

It is many reasons for it. The first and most important is the lack of fully supported hardware (laptop) to buy. For the right price with AROS installed I'm sure it is a lot of potential users even outside Amigaworld.
Other reason is that regarding AROS it is quite recent that it has come to a state where it is very stable with lot's of stable software.
Regarding stable state both NG Amiga and MorphOS been much longer than AROS.

From Icaros or even AspireOS downloads you can see lot's of potential users. Many use and try AROS hosted others native. Problem is that if not everything is working good at first install people give up and wait to next time.
For development VESA mode is good but for a normal user it is almost essential to have nativte gfx to get a real good experience. Unless you have a desktop computer it is difficult to find a fully supported laptop. Thankfully I tested and can report very good results from using a Cell phone connected with USB cable for networking. For audio it could also be nice to see AROS support USB sound cards. Thankfully HD Audio for AROS supports lot's of soundcards in Laptops around 10 years old. The biggest problem is native gfx as there is very limited support but thankfully possible. ACER aspire one a110, 150 is good example of fully supported hardware for AROS. It is a nice little computer but as time pass is little outdated regarding hardware specs.

It is also quite obious that without marketing AROS only attract old Amiga, MorphOS users. That is for sure another limitation.

Some tried to sell AROS hardware. The first one Imica from Stefen Jones. The problem that time as I see it is unstable, unfinished OS inkluding lot's of the software. Pascal did something like this also with ARES computers. They did much right and many good things came out if it. I would say if something did this today with a laptop and a marketing budget + hire 2 - 3 developers like Deadwood and Neil it could be great. Stefen and Pascal just like me is die hard Amiga fans but at the same time normal people that try to make a difference. Our amount of money to invest in this is the biggest problem.

As a community it could even be possible to set up a company where people buy shares. For sure got to have a strong leader to guide the project. I would look at is as an investment with potential but first and foremost to gain your personal interest in future of Amigalike OS.

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wawa 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 5-Feb-2018 12:43:31
#187 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@nikosidis

Quote:
where it is very stable with lot's of stable software.


actually it will probably be considered stable with lots of software, when transition to abi v1 will be undertaken and the software will be available in form of easily compilable sources for every aros target the users might fancy, at least thats what im proposing.

unfortunatelly its not the current state.

Quote:
From Icaros or even AspireOS downloads you can see lot's of potential users.


how do you calculate it? can you distinguish between individual users and multiple downloads by the same user, in particular regular downloads of updates and such?
what number does it approximately result with?

Quote:
As a community it could even be possible to set up a company where people by shares.


nice idea, but huge logistic attempts like this seem very remote..

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nikosidis 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 5-Feb-2018 14:34:49
#188 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Dec-2008
Posts: 994
From: Norway, Oslo

@wawa

To calculate I would say devide the downloads in 2 and you have a fair result. This must be for a version and not all versions of cause. AspireOS v.1.98 downloaded 4374 times and It is nothing compared to Icaros. Maybe 2000 potentinal users I guess it did not reach out to many % for different reasons. If a laptop was sold with a polished version of AspireOS for lets say 200 Euro ready installed. Could even be in multi boot with Linux I see lot's of potentional users as said not only in Amigaworld.
The problem is marketing and to hire people as it will be expensive. Sure could be investors out there willing to support it and if something is done this way why not sell shares to the community.

Last edited by nikosidis on 05-Feb-2018 at 02:35 PM.

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bison 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 5-Feb-2018 15:37:53
#189 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 2112
From: N-Space

@nikosidis

Quote:
After some tought Memory protection might not be that critical to have if the software is very well tested and rearly crash.

One other consideration: any system without memory protection should not be connected to a network. If it is, then it's an easy target.

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paolone 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 5-Feb-2018 15:38:41
#190 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Sep-2007
Posts: 1143
From: Unknown

@Hypex

Quote:

Hypex wrote:
@paolone

At my Amiga club the other night a comment was made that if something is made free then it has no value. It related to media but I thought it was a good comment that can be related to the Amiga. And especially AmigaOS. By charging money for it do they give it value?



Short and simple answer: No. Ask your girlfriend about sex and money, if she agreed with the same comment.

Little longer explanation: value of any tool is the use you do with it. You don't worry to spend more for a better screwdriver, if you're an electrician and you need it to work every day. You spend 10 for the tool, but earn 3000 from the work you use it for, and there is a 300x value you can actually feel.

Now let's talk about AmigaOS, AROS and MorphOS: unless you are the creator of a 3rd party application and earn different amounts of money from users of each one, there is no objective difference between their 'value'. They're all hobby-OSes you can't use for production machines and, unless your customers have very little expectations, you'd use anything else to work. So the only 'value' here is the one YOU are giving to each OS, according to the fun it gives to you.

AROS costs 0, but gives me a huge amount of fun. AmigaOS 4.x costs 30 euros, but it gives me no fun at all. Guess what's the most vaulable to me.

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paolone 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 5-Feb-2018 15:49:38
#191 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Sep-2007
Posts: 1143
From: Unknown

@nikosidis

Quote:

nikosidis wrote:
@Paolone

I think you are wrong. If done right sure it is a big market for Amiga or Amiga like OS.


I see two issues here.

1. every amigan has its own opinion about the meaning of "done right"

and

2. let's admit an ideal Amiga-inspired operating system could be done, what would its purpose be?

If you need AmigaOS to do what Windows and Linux do, you already have Windows and Linux. If you would need AmigaOS to do what Android and iOS do, you'd already have Android and iOS. If you need AmigaOS as a MacOS X replacement, you already have MorphOS and I don't think MorphOS is as popular among Mac users than MacOS X had been on PPC Macs, sorry.

Problem here is that the Ideal Amiga OS won't have any damn target niche to satisfy, because every little niche already has an available, often free solution already.

By the way, both AspireOS and Icaros Desktop are the best environments you may run on netbooks, really. They boot fast, they make the most of Atom's in-order architecture, they fit in limited RAM and disk sizes and have all pretty needed applications a netbook can deal with. However, neither AspireOS nor Icaros Desktop are installed on the majority of netbooks out there. I know it's not the prettiest thing I may say, but that's the simple and bare reality: let's face it.

We can continue developing our OSes as we like and be happy with them, but nobody in the commercial IT world will be seriously interested into them, for various reasons including the ones many amigans wrongly INSIST in saying they are not important (they ARE, of course), lile for example memory protection.

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nikosidis 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 5-Feb-2018 16:38:52
#192 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Dec-2008
Posts: 994
From: Norway, Oslo

@Bison

Please explain? I did not know that.

@Paolone

The only open source OS that is popular is Linux. Sorry but I can not stand it. I totaly hate all the protection shit and it just makes no scence to me. Every time I give it a try I'm on the edge of insaity ;)
AmigaOS is the only OS I know about that has some easy understandable OS structure. Not that it does matter much to most users but for me it is by far the most easy and fun to use.
I'm sure Amiga like OS still has a place in this world as long as it is open source and an alternative to Linux.
Everything from Linux is also ugly as hell. I wonder where Ubuntu (most popular distro) got it's designers.
Sure Linux is great to use if you as most people only browse the web. For other stuff I stay far away.

Regarding done right people are free to port and use whatever the like if it is ScaleOS, Dopus, whatever. What I don't understand is why people still think PPC has a future. This is just about a damed CPU. I don't give a shit if AmigaOS or amigalike ran on fuel as long as it works in a cheap mothern enviroment.

AmigaOS easy and fun to use. Not stupid non configurable as Apple or limited, protected pain in the ass as Linux. AmigaOS is easy if you want and very configurable if you want in a good understandable way.

I remember I always enjoyed looking at screenshots of others workbench or when I met other Amiga people and look at their computer. Always different and often so beautiful. Amiga has a personal feel you can forget on other OS.

AmigaOS was more about design, creativity than any other platform ever been. I think it is a good argument and something that should be used to advertise the advantages and why people should use it.


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bison 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 5-Feb-2018 17:35:38
#193 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 2112
From: N-Space

@nikosidis

It's a complex subject, but basically AmigaOS runs everything, including the OS kernel, in the same address space, which is why it's so fast. But any process can look at the memory of any other process to see what's there -- passwords, credit card numbers, etc. The OS was not designed with the Internet in mind.

Right now it's not an issue (as far as I know) because there are so few AmigaOS users on the Internet that it's not an interesting target. But if it were to become more popular, it would be a problem. Any attempt to transform AmigaOS into a modern OS would have to begin with memory protection and process isolation, which would break compatibility with most existing software.

So you're in a bit of a conundrum -- any attempt to modernize AmigaOS is going to make it more like Linux, at least in principle, if not in detail.

Last edited by bison on 05-Feb-2018 at 05:48 PM.
Last edited by bison on 05-Feb-2018 at 05:45 PM.
Last edited by bison on 05-Feb-2018 at 05:44 PM.

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OlafS25 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 5-Feb-2018 17:53:04
#194 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6321
From: Unknown

@bison

it depends on what your potential users are...

if you want to have a mainstream OS that is good enough for todays tasks and users then you need to make drastic changes and drop compatibility. But then existing amiga users will not be very happy with it and there is a big question... who will write all the needed software for it, why should 3rd party developer support it and where it differentiates from other big players.

The other option is to stay where we are and make existing users happy (vampire is a example for that). I think second is all what is left, make drastic changes and add MP and 64bit is doable but who will make the software for it? In my view NG (at least MorphOS) should have done that from day one. Today it is too late

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bison 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 5-Feb-2018 19:45:34
#195 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 2112
From: N-Space

@OlafS25

Yes, today is too late for most of the things that we would like to see happen. I run old Amiga games via emulation on Linux, and play around with AROS hosted on Linux, and for me this is about as good as it's going to get. I would like to have a more Amiga-like desktop for Linux.

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Hans 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 6-Feb-2018 0:48:29
#196 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 5066
From: New Zealand

@bison

Quote:

bison wrote:
@nikosidis

It's a complex subject, but basically AmigaOS runs everything, including the OS kernel, in the same address space, which is why it's so fast. But any process can look at the memory of any other process to see what's there -- passwords, credit card numbers, etc. The OS was not designed with the Internet in mind.

Not entirely true. On AmigaOS 4 you can allocate memory as MEMF_PRIVATE, in which case only the task that allocated it has access.

Hans

_________________
http://hdrlab.org.nz/ - Amiga OS 4 projects, programming articles and more. Home of the RadeonHD driver for Amiga OS 4.x project.
https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

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bison 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 6-Feb-2018 1:16:43
#197 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 2112
From: N-Space

@Hans

Quote:
Not entirely true. On AmigaOS 4 you can allocate memory as MEMF_PRIVATE, in which case only the task that allocated it has access.

I didn't know that. Does it use the processor's MMU to enforce this?

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ferrels 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 6-Feb-2018 1:52:18
#198 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 922
From: Arizona

@nikosidis


Quote:
I think you are wrong. If done right sure it is a big market for Amiga or Amiga like OS.


That's very naive and sheer speculation on your part and no business would stake its resources on either. I guarantee that if you conducted proper market research and surveys that you'd find little to no interest in an Amiga-like OS from either IT professionals nor general consumers.

None of the Amiga or Amiga-like operating systems have anything to offer other than the nostalgia factor. There are already cheaper and better alternatives to anything that Amiga or Amiga-like operating systems have to offer......applications being the first thing that comes to mind.....none of the Amiga platforms even have an adequate web browser which is simply a ludicrous situation for any computer user in the 21st century.

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Hans 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 6-Feb-2018 4:33:44
#199 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 5066
From: New Zealand

@bison

Quote:

bison wrote:
@Hans

Quote:
Not entirely true. On AmigaOS 4 you can allocate memory as MEMF_PRIVATE, in which case only the task that allocated it has access.

I didn't know that. Does it use the processor's MMU to enforce this?

Yes, it does.

Hans

_________________
http://hdrlab.org.nz/ - Amiga OS 4 projects, programming articles and more. Home of the RadeonHD driver for Amiga OS 4.x project.
https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

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paolone 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 6-Feb-2018 8:30:11
#200 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Sep-2007
Posts: 1143
From: Unknown

@bison

You can use Icaros Desktop hosted on Linux. It allows starting host (linux) applications in a very simple way and you can use Wanderer or even better Dopus 5 to access your host filesystem. AROS may have issues follwing symbolic links, though.

http://vmwaros.blogspot.it/2017/05/first-version-of-hostbridge-is-done.html

http://vmwaros.blogspot.com/p/hostbridge.html

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