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      /  It's time to join the forces - Part IV
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Raffaele 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 21-Jan-2018 9:05:53
#41 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Dec-2005
Posts: 1847
From: Naples, Italy

@AmigaBlitter

Last time I proposed such a kind of cooperation inter-Amiga existing forces I was buried by usual Trolls comments that I was a dreamer and a fanboy and any Amiga-like system should stay separate. Glad to see your thread has been considered more seriously than mine and originated a calm discussion.
This makes me suppose that even Trolls abandoned Amiga because they are migrating to other platforms (and that's bad signal because rats are the first abbandoning sinking ship) or average Amiga users are becoming wiser with the age.

About MorphOS I abandoned any illusion It could became the AmigaOS successor.
We users waited ten years for QuarkMachine QBox to materialize and we were completely disappointed. It exists, but without an API, a filesystem management and a GUI of some sort It is unuseful for any practical use.
Once I literally bowed to MorphOS team people literally praying them to materialize a functioning QBox even with just the drivers to run just in a single hardware model of Pegasos or single Mac Model in order to starting using this modern environment.
This request ended with the people or MorphOS laughing at me or even blaming me.
It is more than two years we MorphOS users are waiting for version 3.10 and It also does bot materialize. In other architectures like Intel any project lasting more than two years is considered deceased.
I have a vague feeling that rather than further developing, the MorphOS team have already fnished creating migrating but are stuck with trying to create the "all-perfect-anti-piracy-copy-operating-system-for-Intel™(or X64®)-hardware-platforms". If only they had spended their efforts in creating a version of PPC MorphOS free of bugs system and with a virtual memory management to increase available RAM in existing Mac-PPC machines that have very poor RAM and to avoid Memory-Eating Bug in OWB JavaScript (a simple virtual hardfile had prevented this bug) now we have had the perfect Amiga-like Operating System.
They also deliberately avoid to resolve MorphOS bugs that prevent a perfect integration of DirectoryOpus with MorphOS in order to fulfill their dreams of make Ambient the perfect Windows Manager.
In lesser words about Ambient they are trying reinventing the wheel when in Amiga Camp we already had running modern cars with DirOpus.

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Kronos 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 21-Jan-2018 10:34:21
#42 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2119
From: Unknown

@Raffaele

And you still don't understand why you were called a dreamer/fanboy???

_________________
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OlafS25 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 21-Jan-2018 10:45:22
#43 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5192
From: Unknown

@Raffaele

cooperation would have made a difference many years ago, it still would make sense to have a standardized API. AROS shows the advantage, you can (as far as I know) easily create ARM and X86 versions with one source just by recompiling. Unfortunately many promising developments stopped as soon the developers (or better the developer) lost interest or had different priorities and stopped. Moving projects like OWB also needed several developers to share the (boring but demanding) work. In case of Magellan there was some cooperation between camps but that was a exception and also it is basically not changing so you only need one time to do the port (except bug fixes).

But as some (including mentioned) there are legal problems, technical problems, emotional problems so it will not happen. All platforms are more and more incompatible and everyone will insist that the own design decisions are the best and should be standard. There is also emtional reasons, imagine Ben H. and Frieden brothers and MorphOS team member in one room... I better do not ;)

If it would be about earning money and you have professional companies that know they have to agree to something or the business will collapse then perhaps but this is not the case now. In my view it would be too late anyway because most developers long left, who would write software for the platform. What would be the niche/advantage compared to other mainstream platforms? Amiga was at its time obvious best platform for graphics and desktop video superior to other platforms so developers started to support it. That is not the case anymore. Today it is nowhere competitive anymore. What is left is that it is a retro platform but for retro NG is not best fit.

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Trixie 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 21-Jan-2018 11:05:52
#44 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Sep-2003
Posts: 1627
From: Czech Republic

@AmigaMac

Quote:
It's definitely long past due to bury the hatchet and make amends.

One thing that some people in this thread apparently fail to see is that there is actually no hatchet to be buried. AmigaOS4, AROS and MorphOS have peacefully followed their own ways for some years now, and the systems have diverged simply because the people behind them have different ideas of where the OS should be heading. There is no cooperation not because we hate each other but because we see no point in it. Most active developers are now well past their 40s, have families, careers etc. At this stage of life you surely have better things to do than try to find a common denominator with someone who sees things differently.

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SAM440ep-flex @ 667MHz / 1GB RAM / Radeon 9250 / AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition

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Raffaele 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 21-Jan-2018 11:19:01
#45 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Dec-2005
Posts: 1847
From: Naples, Italy

@OlafS25

Who care Amiga legacy was good grahpics and desktop video? Its actual major point is It has the best easy OS present on the market, despite of some lacks that mainstream Operating Systems have.

It is really pleasing using AmigaOS.

Having such Easy Operating Systems fading out is really a loss for cultural heritage of Information Technology.

We will domed continuing using Operating Systems unfriendly or cryptic or too much complex.

By the way. Try this test:

Try make a fresh install of AmigaOS and count how many files it contains...

Now do the same with a Windows 10 fresh install and a Linux Ubuntu fresh install...

Count the number of files and report us number you counted.

In the 2000s Amiga is still the only OS a human can keep control simply by spotting a file is missing.

(And this is only one Little example. I could bring more.)

And by the way... What you apprecciate in AmigaOS? I ask It to you all... Share please your testimony.

Last edited by Raffaele on 21-Jan-2018 at 11:24 AM.
Last edited by Raffaele on 21-Jan-2018 at 11:20 AM.

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ntromans 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 21-Jan-2018 11:23:25
#46 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Jul-2004
Posts: 103
From: West Midlands, UK

@Signal

Re. a multiprocessor system, some of the most powerful supercomputers in the world today are simply a large number of actually low spec pcs networked together runing Linux; a new take on the old transputer idea. Now, these machines are solving bery specialised tasks such as plasma flow which can be highly parallelised, but it does show the power of such arrangements.

I should now stress I'm turning on FANTASY mode now:

I'm imagining a modular system based around a system bus into which you could drop any number of CPU cards. Make the CPU cheap and cheerful (ARM would be the best choice here). An individual CPU would not have to be too powerful as you could have each one just looking after a small number of tasks, e.g. with four CPU cards, one just runs the coordinating OS and user interface, another could be scheduled to run the web browser, another the media player to run the YouTube clip, another say an emulator. Have specialist modules such as a Vampire derived one to add AGA/SAGA compatability and classic software run natively on its '080, but also ones which give a PCIe interface to plug in e.g. a 3D graphics card for playing Cube or whatever.

AROS could be made to run on it, classic AmigaOS on the Vampire module, MophOS is I guess moving to a architecture which is less tied to a specific ISA so maybe it could run on this, and I believe I'm right in saying some ARM chips can switch their endianness so maybe even AmigaOS4 could be adapted to it.

All of the above is, I appreciate, total and utter fantasy, but it's nice to do a 'what if' sometimes. Also, sometimes I really feel I'd like to own a medium sized IT hardware company and have a LOT of money in the bank...

Cheers,
Nigel.

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Raffaele 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 21-Jan-2018 11:39:02
#47 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Dec-2005
Posts: 1847
From: Naples, Italy

@OlafS25

Quote:

OlafS25 wrote:
@Raffaele

There is also emtional reasons, imagine Ben H. and Frieden brothers and MorphOS team member in one room... I better do not ;)

If it would be about earning money and you have professional companies that know they have to agree to something or the business will collapse then perhaps but this is not the case now.


Your got the point...

We need a strong personality figure with management skills and enough money to inject capitals in the Amiga system in order to let all camps sit peacefully at the same table with enough cash in their pockets to keep them happy and keeping them enough favourable to a common API agreement...

Unfortunately we do not have such a person in close range of sight, and even Trevor Dickinson seems that despite his personal finances (even if cospicuos sure are not THAT big to reconcile AmigaOS, AROS and MorphOS camps and gather all disperse Amiga Intellectual Properties and Copyrights) he doesn't got enough charisma and enough strenght to gather all community under one single flag.

Only a person with enough money, a strong personality and a precise plan to revive Amiga could help the platform.

Do you know any skilled tycoons who are involved in Venture Capitals business?

Last edited by Raffaele on 21-Jan-2018 at 12:12 PM.
Last edited by Raffaele on 21-Jan-2018 at 12:09 PM.

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ntromans 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 21-Jan-2018 12:44:15
#48 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Jul-2004
Posts: 103
From: West Midlands, UK

@Raffaele

As an example of how to get new users to your OS, look at what the Acorn RiscOs people have done - port their OS to the cheap-as-chips RPi. Low entry cost, people can try it with little outlay and i fthey like it, well, that's a new member of your community.

Now the big problem with the RPi is the closed source nature of their design. So, what about this idea (and, given the amazing things that are being done with the Vampire, I don't think this is anywhere near the fantasy level of my post a few messages back)? Produce an uber cheap system (less than £100) consisting of an ARM CPU with fpga derived interfaces (audio, graphics, USB) and lots of GPIO and atoD & DtoA. Market it as a hobby machine for coding and robotics. It's USP; super-simple Amigaish OS, easy to learn and running rings around RPi's Linux or Windows installations in terms of performance. It's killer application? Yes, we still do have a killer application - Hollywood. If Airsoft were interested, squeeze into the price a cut-down verision of Hollywood (say only able to produce applications for this target), with the option of a paid upgrade to the full version. Include a load of tutorials for software and hardware applications of this (yeah! - something I could actually contribute to!) and you could have something that sells in reasonable numbers and actaully grows the userbase.

Cheers,
Nigel.

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OneTimer1 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 21-Jan-2018 12:56:40
#49 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 3-Aug-2015
Posts: 308
From: Unknown

@Raffaele

Quote:

Raffaele wrote:


Last time I proposed such a kind of cooperation inter-Amiga existing forces I was buried by usual Trolls comments that I was a dreamer and a fanboy ...


Well,

you may be a dreamer and a fanboy (that's no insult) just must not call other people trolls because they might call you this way.

Please proof your idea by answering a single question:

Where could one OS (AOS4, MOS, AROS) benefit from one of the others and what could it give in return?

I will reply to your proposals and explain where it is colliding with reality.


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Srtest 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 21-Jan-2018 13:48:52
#50 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Nov-2016
Posts: 195
From: Israel, Haderah

People here keep talking about the technical side like that is what preventing the Amiga collective from advancing. Like you can seperate tech and market today.

Like always, the relevant questions can't be answered by people who don't even know how AOS4.1 behaves on current Power platforms and what it allows you to do (which of course doesn't stop them from forming "opinions" and saying to new users who come here how bas it is).

As long as that's the level of the discussion nothing will move a single step forward because that advancement they keep talking about is something Amiga was never about and like I always say - if this is what some people want then why do it here? There's a platform called a pc on which you can do pc-related things. They come here because here their voices will be heard, which I have no issues with unless they use those voices to target Power platforms, people who invested in those and AOS4.1 users, who might actually thought that investing in an A1 machine with AOS4.1 was an advancement.

You need to agree on a certain discussion before you can discuss... If even that discussion is often derailed by those with agendas then what does that mean?

I've asked in the past several upon several questions about the market and tech and all those people who claim 4.1 is not advanced enough couldn't answer a single question because their focus is not the focus of many here.

Does that mean the current situation is great? of course not. Only that a community at least needs to agree to a way to move forward from a humane perspective before anything else could be discussed.

AOS4.1 on A1 is as genuine as any classic Amiga is, today. If this can't be agreed upon then I don't know what is expected other than dropping this platform entirely, which is the fantasy of those blaming AOS4.1 users, when in fact there are about 2% of 4.1 users who cast blame on Morph or Aros and about 98% of those other entities targeting 4.1 as the cause of all that is evil.

There is a lot to be said about the companies which headline the Amiga today, only that it's shadowed by the non-productive and agenda driven discussion and the poisonous atmosphere which has already driven away developers in the past like Elena Novaretti to establish this small bubble. You think just because we are split into 4.1, Morph and Aros that this isn't a bubble? that's just a testament to how much some here are detached and how some actually like it that they don't need to be evaluated according to outer parameters and they could care less if the life force of this community is dwindling.

The split to the different ways was to be expected. The same thing, of course, happened to the Linux world naturally (and then again and again...). Only we are not the Linux world and still, we move in idealistic steps like some angel is going to come and take us to greener pastures. That won't happen. The only next step is a collaborated effort and reestablishing the Amiga culture. On this basis a mature discussion can be had by all parties involved.

Last edited by Srtest on 21-Jan-2018 at 01:54 PM.

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wawa 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 21-Jan-2018 14:14:34
#51 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5916
From: Unknown

@ntromans

Quote:
I'm definietly not a coder at anywhere near that level and certainly don't have the tim


see? i know exactly where you are coming from. i am constantly reading people argumenting from this angle, when trying to encourage others to do something.

just to put things into perspective, im not a coder too. im visual artist. mostly painter, bt i was actively using amiga for some of my work, and so, from simply using the system i came to trying to improve it and its software, in the beginning in the area, which i considered practically important to me, which in turn led me to aros.

i dont master any programming language till today, but i figured limited ways how i can contribute to aros testing and development, instead to demand it from others. and honestly, we all do not have time, the less the more skilled and competent people are.

Quote:
but I would definitely be willing to pay for it;


again, how much do you want to spend? thousands? because considering the sparce audience it might not even be enough.

if you want to see some advancement you must engage yourself and still there is no guarantee others will follow. thats the only option left, there is no alternative.

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Signal 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 21-Jan-2018 14:16:03
#52 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2013
Posts: 598
From: USA

@OneTimer1

Quote:
Where could one OS (AOS4, MOS, AROS) benefit from one of the others and what could it give in return?


Difficult.

I see the three teams each doing their own thing and cooperation is difficult because they each play by their own rules to their own goals.

If they all showed up as teams at a sporting event one would be there with their checkered soccer ball, another with a baseball & bats and the third with tennis ball and rackets. They are all ball games, just different rules that don't really mesh for a coherent game. Might be fun to watch.

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wawa 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 21-Jan-2018 14:18:08
#53 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5916
From: Unknown

@Signal

Quote:
We either have power as a community, or we bow down to what is,,,,,,,, The Status Quo.


you must realistically consider whats within your power. os4 is a proprietary "product", its not anything you can simply claim power over. aros on the other hand is in the hands of community by definition. thats the difference.

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wawa 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 21-Jan-2018 14:22:35
#54 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5916
From: Unknown

@Raffaele

Quote:
Its actual major point is It has the best easy OS present on the market,


define its key unique characteristics that make it better.

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wawa 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 21-Jan-2018 14:25:36
#55 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5916
From: Unknown

@Raffaele

Quote:
We need a strong personality figure with management skills and enough money to inject capitals in the Amiga system


no, thanks!

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wawa 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 21-Jan-2018 14:28:39
#56 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5916
From: Unknown

@OneTimer1

Quote:
Where could one OS (AOS4, MOS, AROS) benefit from one of the others and what could it give in return?


counceling and consultation is what is within doable. and it happens in particular cases. imagine the situation, where you need to prove behaviour of some os function on different targets, or even someone who has insight into internals and can take part in some clean room process.

once upon a time at "utility base" developers of all amigoid systems were talking to ach other (within limits). olaf has tried to revive that platform, just ther eis not enough audience and interest left.

Last edited by wawa on 21-Jan-2018 at 02:30 PM.
Last edited by wawa on 21-Jan-2018 at 02:30 PM.

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Srtest 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 21-Jan-2018 14:29:56
#57 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Nov-2016
Posts: 195
From: Israel, Haderah

@Signal

That's exactly the point - the focus on rules and the game or likewise the medium, instead of what's fun and how people use certain stuff. If bringing a bat to a basketball game is what you think is fun then by all means maybe you're on to something there. Don't let any troll discourage you.

Last edited by Srtest on 21-Jan-2018 at 02:32 PM.

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Srtest 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 21-Jan-2018 14:30:39
#58 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Nov-2016
Posts: 195
From: Israel, Haderah

@wawa

Quote:

wawa wrote:
@Raffaele

Quote:
We need a strong personality figure with management skills and enough money to inject capitals in the Amiga system


no, thanks!


Why are you even here?

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wawa 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 21-Jan-2018 14:32:08
#59 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5916
From: Unknown

@Srtest

Quote:
Why are you even here?


because i dont like to subdue to strong leadership.

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Srtest 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 21-Jan-2018 14:39:47
#60 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Nov-2016
Posts: 195
From: Israel, Haderah

I would gladly embrace whatever leadership there is instead of the selfish and splintered my way or the highway minded folks who are a vocal minority here and seem to need the smaller 4.1 base (compared to the classic one) to make their points and be heard. Just like you could see on that Arstechinka article when all the ones who live on whatever happens in 4.1 land, came out to try and use that article to hurt 4.1 and steer the ship. Trying to hide that behaviour is some shameful stuff. It's here and from everything I've read it's been here for years trying to stop whatever was developed.

BTW, I see that on Amiga.org when someone does the same to you on you precious Vamp you lose your senses because you get to taste some of your own medicine.

No thank you. If I need to choose between the agenda-driven personalities here and perhaps some small minded leadership it's not a choice at all.

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