@cgutjahr

Quote:

@number6 Costel never mentions a subscription model, that's a misinterpretation.

Thanks for the clarification.

@number6

Please could you update your incorrect title and perhaps ask clarification from native a speaker of the language "news" is posted in rather than spread autotranslated (ableit unitentional) FUD?

Last edited by broadblues on 31-Jan-2018 at 03:24 PM.

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@broadblues

Exactly.

It is good that Hyperion are engaging with us but let's get 100% clarity on anything said. Otherwise we waste everyone's time.

Last edited by -Sam- on 31-Jan-2018 at 03:53 PM.

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Sam

@Trixie

Quote:

By "OS4 developer microclimate" I meant developers who create software for OS4, not Hyperion.

Ah, apologies. Misunderstood that.

@AdvancedFollower

Quote:

I don't think free updates are "idiocy".

especially when one considers the content of said updates, namely collections of apparently minor contributions by unsalaried volonteers. i dont know if this is a reason for pride, that this substitute has been delivered to the public free of charge, instead of actual updates containing functionality, the users have prepaid already, with the systems it was advertised for.

@ExiE
Quote:

For me it is hard to believe that the main reason for (very) slow development of OS4 for Tabor is money. I do believer that Trevor would pay for it immediately to get the boards ready to market ASAP. I would suspect it is manpower, skilled developers or some other currently unknown reason on Hyperion's side but not money. (To be absolutely clear I am talking only about Tabor support, not development of next version of OS4 in general)

Of course the main reason is (lack of) manpower. One or two people working a few evenings in their spare time is not enough to create drivers for complex hardware like networking interfaces, sound chips etc. in any reasonable time frame.
However a good, proven way to get more manpower is to offer the developers money for their work. The IT company where I work has been known to occasionally pay its developers. It has a very motivating effect

Last edited by AdvancedFollower on 31-Jan-2018 at 06:52 PM.
Last edited by AdvancedFollower on 31-Jan-2018 at 06:51 PM.

@broadblues & cgutjahr

Quote:

@number6 Costel never mentions a subscription model, that's a misinterpretation.

With all due respect & I know I don't get much, Costel did talk about a subscription idea in IRC maybe a year ago. Can't remember who brought it up, a very short discussion, but the idea did come up in the beta channel.

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@broadblues

Indeed. The title should read "Hyperion thinking of cancelling free updates and letting users pay full money for every new release".

Damn FUD!

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"I've been a supporter of "REACTION" GUI because is an Amiga OS thing." -Snuffy

"I personally prefer a vision of do'ers and makers rather than

@sundown

Comments made by Costel in a *private* converstaion on a private IRC channel are not the subject of this thread. The commenst he made in *public* which have been mistranslated (I won't say misrepresented because that implies #6 was being disingenious, which I wouldn't like to think...)


I really can't comment on what he may have said there as

cat AmigaWorld.NET_#os4beta | grep "" >ram:dump

contains no conversations on the subject, so I clearly wasn't online at the time. Oh yeah and it would have been in private.

Last edited by broadblues on 31-Jan-2018 at 08:35 PM.

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@Cheese

Not charging at all for the extsnive work donw bewteen 4.1 and 4.1u6 is part of why Hyperion have problems.

How much would have been resonable, is a seperate debate.

FE at 30/40 euro was good move IMHO.

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@cgutjahr

Thank you for taking the time to offer an accurate translation of events.
Thread title changed accordingly.

@sundown

afaik, Amigaworld.net main channel is considered public (much like the website) and therefore quotable.
Information from private channels is not viewed the same way.
Staff is free to post and clarify re:that policy

#6

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@broadblues



Quote:

broadblues wrote: @Cheese Not charging at all for the extsnive work donw bewteen 4.1 and 4.1u6 is part of why Hyperion have problems. How much would have been resonable, is a seperate debate. FE at 30/40 euro was good move IMHO.

I would not mind to pay each year that amount for FE.

I think we all can agree that a reasonable rate of updates would make the vast majority of us happy. Quarterly, semi-annual, not annual, definetly not every 2 years.

I hate the fact that since the listbrowser.gadget class fix is not released it makes my program look broken/defective when it is not. I shouldn't have to explain that over and over on the forums.

I think I can speak for the masses when I say we are not in this to make enough money to program as a full time job. Donations and maybe a small "paycheck" (and I mean small) is enough to keep me interested and actively developing. Heck, even some nice emails from users telling how much they like my program has been a boost. I program because I enjoy the challenge. I program for Amiga because Windows is flooded with 500 versions of every type of program.

BUT, when I get in a groove I don't want to stop and wait for the OS to catch up with me with fixes and updates. I am not going to include a new feature if I can't release a new version that uses it. I want more instant gratification (even if 3-6 months).

@-Sam-

Quote:

It is good that Hyperion are engaging with us but let's get 100% clarity on anything said. Otherwise we waste everyone's time.

If clarity is the issue it's directly proportionate to Hyperion's lack of engagement.

I can't fathom why a company would so actively protect a market which it doesn't have the resources or will to maintain.

Maybe they need something like a subscription model. Pay some $5 per month and release small updates on a regular basis.

@mritter0

Quote:

mritter0 wrote: I think we all can agree that a reasonable rate of updates would make the vast majority of us happy. Quarterly, semi-annual, not annual, definetly not every 2 years. I hate the fact that since the listbrowser.gadget class fix is not released it makes my program look broken/defective when it is not. I shouldn't have to explain that over and over on the forums.

oh, now I know why it looks broken. I wrote you and email asking for the reason, considering that you probably wrote about it times and times again, I can understand why I did not get an answer.
Quote:

I think I can speak for the masses when I say we are not in this to make enough money to program as a full time job. Donations and maybe a small "paycheck" (and I mean small) is enough to keep me interested and actively developing. Heck, even some nice emails from users telling how much they like my program has been a boost. I program because I enjoy the challenge. I program for Amiga because Windows is flooded with 500 versions of every type of program. BUT, when I get in a groove I don't want to stop and wait for the OS to catch up with me with fixes and updates. I am not going to include a new feature if I can't release a new version that uses it. I want more instant gratification (even if 3-6 months).

Every 3/6 months is a good proposition, and for small fixes AmiUpdate should still be used IMHO.

Paying something on a monthly basis is ok too.

@cgutjahr

Quote:

Because - and that seems to be his main point, given he's very vague about anything that might or might not happen in the future - "this whole pay-once-and-then-get-free-updates-for-ages-idiocy" (that's a literal quote) is what did "immense damage" to AmigaOS that will be "very hard to fix".

Yes, because the fact they are developing the system (mainly) for overpriced, underpowered exotic hardware platforms, which barely happen to have the name 'Amiga' somewhere fitting into them, after retaining NO heritage from the original custom chips architecture didn't do any damage in his opinion...

And, of course, having no attractive software, no killer applications, nor a tiny single exclusive except some forgettable little utilities coded by amateurs in their spare time, which have dozens or thousands of alternatives on mainstream OSes didn't do any harm as well.

And well, obviosuly, even the fact that any other OS all over the world can use more than a single core and execute 64 bit instructions (and this recently included even the AROS cousin), while AmigaOS 4.x is still limited to its 31-bit address space, patched somehow with a Commodore 128-like bank switching mechanism to achieve at least the "32th bit" 4 GB that any other OS can handle without issues, didn't do any harm.

Ok, let's admit all the former issues never made any damage to AmigaOS 4.x perception from the audience, what all these idiotic legal battles, c&d lecters, NDA contracts, forum fights between coders, and IP struggles about a 25-to30 years old code should suggest to any other, not-amigally-biased people?

I guess the fix for the "pay once and get free uptades" problem should be simplier to find and apply, than the others needed for what I wrote so far.

@ne_one

Quote:

I can't fathom why a company would so actively protect a market which it doesn't have the resources or will to maintain.

Quote:

the "Amiga" brand needs to be protected or the 2007-2009 would have been largely for nothing.

Source Ben Hermans

I'm sure you are aware of this reasoning, but it bears repeating for those who never read this reasoning.

#6

Last edited by number6 on 01-Feb-2018 at 02:40 PM.

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@paolone

Quote:

after retaining NO heritage from the original custom chips architecture

I can't understand anybody being so keen after "original custom chips" still. The only magic in OCS/ECS/AGA was DMA feature, so the chips don't have to wait for the CPU to transfer data for them but they could fetch the data themselves with the DMA. I was wondering if people were using the Copper to have the smoothiest animations but one demo coder told me that they're not using Copper at all but CIA timers. Every Windows PC has a good DMA engine and, I bet, good timers as well nowadays. So every Windows PC is heritage to the original Amiga chipset. Dave Haynie tried to tell that to us many years ago !

If somebody wants to make a different computer to challenge PC's monopoly still today. I would rethink the whole computer and stop using generic CPU's at all. But everything is so much more complicated and users are a lot more demanding nowadays than anything was in 1980s. Such group/person should make a team with a multi billion company like Google or Samsung to get enough money to make anything possible at all. Remember Amiga wouldn't necessary exist without multi million Commodore. Time is over for bedroom hardware makers and coders.

(Maybe one chance would to find and purchase Hombre chipset schematics, make a Hombre chipset on a PCIe card, make the necessary OpenGL drivers and sell it to Windows gamers in numbers of millions of units. David Pleasance claimed it still has features missing from Nvidia's and AMD's products.)

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@mritter0

I feel the same !

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@cgutjahr

About those drivers for Tabor...

My concern is that Hyperion will go under, leaving all those A1222 motherboards that are sitting in a warehouse somewhere without a viable future.

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