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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  Hyperion development and financing discussion
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wawa 
Re: Hyperion reconsidering the subscription model for development
Posted on 1-Feb-2018 20:36:31
#61 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@bison

Quote:
My concern is that Hyperion will go under, leaving all those A1222 motherboards that are sitting in a warehouse somewhere without a viable future.


wouldnt that be better this way, rather than just after they sold the boards?;)

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simplex 
Re: Hyperion reconsidering the subscription model for development
Posted on 1-Feb-2018 23:15:31
#62 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Oct-2003
Posts: 896
From: Hattiesburg, MS

@bison

Quote:
My concern is that Hyperion will go under, leaving all those A1222 motherboards that are sitting in a warehouse somewhere without a viable future.
If Hyperion goes under, then one of two things happens.

(1) A company buys the rights and has both the interest & ability to develop AmigaOS and defend the trademark(s) and/or copyright(s).

(2) No one buys and defends the trademark(s) and/or copyright(s), in which case AmigaOS will be free to develop as its users wish & are able to do.

I think Hyperion has done some good things for Amiga, and they've certainly tried a bit, but they aren't essential, and there's an argument to be made that they've held it back.

I suppose it's possible that some company would buy the rights & defend them without actually doing anything to develop it, but this isn't 2000 anymore, where the Amino owners thought they could get a bunch of customers for some product just by calling some software they developed "Amiga". Anyone trying to do that now would be very foolish, given that they can see how that group turned out.

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I've decided to follow an awful lot of people I respect and leave AmigaWorld. If for some reason you want to talk to me, it shouldn't take much effort to find me.

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BigD 
Re: Hyperion reconsidering the subscription model for development
Posted on 1-Feb-2018 23:42:32
#63 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 7307
From: UK

@simplex

Quote:
If Hyperion goes under...


A-EON can't afford that to happen. We believe (rumour field activated) that A-EON already helped Hyperion stay afloat and the Enhancer Software is a way of A-EON to help Hyperion focus on 'core' OS development while getting nice extras out there to users (for a price). Without A-EON Hyperion would be on the ropes. All this litigation is the real problem. Cloanto and Hyperion should play nice

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

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wawa 
Re: Hyperion reconsidering the subscription model for development
Posted on 1-Feb-2018 23:56:38
#64 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@BigD

Quote:
We believe


if so, then its you, who believes it, i guess.

Quote:
Enhancer Software is a way of A-EON to help Hyperion focus on 'core' OS developmen


according to hyperion chef etage private statements, not all of them ae particularly happy about aeon buying up stuff and "duplicating" os functionality in apparently an odd manner.

Last edited by wawa on 01-Feb-2018 at 11:57 PM.

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cgutjahr 
Re: Hyperion reconsidering the subscription model for development
Posted on 2-Feb-2018 0:11:45
#65 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 969
From: Unknown

@bison

Quote:

My concern is that Hyperion will go under, leaving all those A1222 motherboards that are sitting in a warehouse somewhere without a viable future.

The problem is that Hyperion - in its current state - is not able to provide a proper port of the OS that you could describe as "working reliably". Ask any X5000 owners you trust in private about the state of OS4 on their machine - they'll tell you about boot problems, stability issues, USB problems, a very immature SATA driver and things like that. Anybody who switched from a X1000 to a X5000 will complain that the X5000 port of OS4 is "so much worse" than its predecessor.

Nobody's posting any of that in public - partly due to peer pressure and partly because most of the X1000 customers actually signed an NDA, I guess. But I would be very cautious about spending any money on tabor until you get some reliable reports about stability, performance and the quality of the FPU emulation.

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cgutjahr 
Re: Hyperion reconsidering the subscription model for development
Posted on 2-Feb-2018 0:23:08
#66 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 969
From: Unknown

@simplex

Quote:

f Hyperion goes under, then one of two things happens.

(1) A company buys the rights and has both the interest & ability to develop AmigaOS and defend the trademark(s) and/or copyright(s).

I guess there is (was?) at least one candidate willing to try (Dickinson), but untangling the legal and financial mess Hyperion created is going to be a massive project that would require excellent communication skills. I'm not sure Trevor qualifies here - because, frankly, he's been at it for 9 years and the situation didn't exactly improve much...

Not to mention the costs involved in fixing this.

Quote:

(2) No one buys and defends the trademark(s) and/or copyright(s), in which case AmigaOS will be free to develop as its users wish & are able to do.

No. Most of the OS4 components are owned by Amiga Inc./Cloanto (3.1 Code) and the external authors (any new code for 4.x). If Hyperion ceases to exist, these external author will still own their code. Not to mention that no 3rd party has access to any source code for AmigaOS 4.

If you're talking about m68kAmigaOS: Cloanto has always been shutting down sites offering unlicensed copies of ROMs or Workbench disks, even long before Hyperion ever entered the OS business.

Last edited by cgutjahr on 02-Feb-2018 at 12:23 AM.

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ne_one 
Re: Hyperion reconsidering the subscription model for development
Posted on 2-Feb-2018 1:32:09
#67 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Jun-2005
Posts: 905
From: Unknown

@number6

Quote:

I'm sure you are aware of this reasoning, but it bears repeating for those who never read this reasoning.


Any resemblance to "reasoning" is purely incidental.

This is all about hubris.

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ne_one 
Re: Hyperion reconsidering the subscription model for development
Posted on 2-Feb-2018 1:51:23
#68 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Jun-2005
Posts: 905
From: Unknown

@simplex

Quote:

If Hyperion goes under, then one of two things happens...


Insolvency would just prolong this fiasco regardless of the direction that would unfold.

Anyone acquiring the trademarks and IP would leverage the former and ditch the latter.

It's clear that it's time to start over.

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bison 
Re: Hyperion reconsidering the subscription model for development
Posted on 2-Feb-2018 4:24:28
#69 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 2112
From: N-Space

@wawa

Quote:
wouldnt that be better this way, rather than just after they sold the boards?;)

Yes, it would be better for the people who bought the boards. It would be kind of hard luck for Trevor, though, although of course he knew the risks going in, better than most of us. And it would almost certainly be the end of the PPC Amiga platform.

_________________
"Unix is supposed to fix that." -- Jay Miner

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wawa 
Re: Hyperion reconsidering the subscription model for development
Posted on 2-Feb-2018 6:17:39
#70 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@bison

Quote:
Yes, it would be better for the people who bought the boards.


thats who counts, isnt it? or are you for supporting the companies no matter at what cost for fans?

Quote:
It would be kind of hard luck for Trevor, though


at least he took some precautions it seems, as apparrently he is waiting with customers production run till the os is ready enough in his eyes.

Quote:
And it would almost certainly be the end of the PPC Amiga platform.


there is morphos, and aros supports ppc again. but of course, there wouldnt be any ppc hardware anymore. probably better sooner than later, why postpone the inevitable.

Last edited by wawa on 02-Feb-2018 at 06:18 AM.

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cha05e90 
Re: Hyperion reconsidering the subscription model for development
Posted on 2-Feb-2018 7:59:07
#71 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Apr-2009
Posts: 1275
From: Germany

@wawa

Quote:
probably better sooner than later,

Hm? In which regards is that "better"?!?

_________________
X1000|II/G4|440ep|2000/060|2000/040|1000

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wawa 
Re: Hyperion reconsidering the subscription model for development
Posted on 2-Feb-2018 9:35:03
#72 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@cha05e90

Quote:
Hm? In which regards is that "better"?!?


less money lost.

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resle 
Re: Hyperion reconsidering the subscription model for development
Posted on 2-Feb-2018 10:50:24
#73 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 28-Nov-2005
Posts: 500
From: shanghai

let's see if finally "amigans" leave that excuse for a business sinking as it deserved since the beginning, or if they'll sink deeper themselves into this abusive relationship. With this last demand, hyperion stepped into BDSM domain.

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outrun1978 
Re: Hyperion reconsidering the subscription model for development
Posted on 2-Feb-2018 10:59:53
#74 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 22-Feb-2015
Posts: 596
From: Unknown

@cgutjahr

Quote:
Ask any X5000 owners you trust in private about the state of OS4 on their machine - they'll tell you about boot problems, stability issues, USB problems, a very immature SATA driver and things like that. Anybody who switched from a X1000 to a X5000 will complain that the X5000 port of OS4 is "so much worse" than its predecessor.


X5000 owner here and no real problems with stability issues and its a lot more stable than it was on my Sam 460

Usb problems?? again i've not found any real issues, yes you get the odd instance of a repeated key, but for me its a case of unplugging the keyboard and plugging it back in. its no big deal.


in public and in private i'd say i'm quite happy with my X5000, yes i know some drivers are missing and some stuff is a work in progress but i knew that before i bought the machine. Having the chance to own this machine was simply too good an opportunity not to pass up.

The most frustrating aspect as is always the case in the Amiga community is the slow pace of development across all camps (still awaiting the much promised MorphOS 3.10) and the stubborness of each camp to work together along with the lack of money. Lots of people do great things out of love for the platforms they use which I certainly appreciate, but its time to start properly rewarding them as a way of stimulating and sustaining development.

When reading threads that Hyperion perhaps may want to look at a model where you pay for updates, then I am fine with that, after all you can only expect people to do so much for free and perhaps using a paid model subscription, we may just get all the features we have long been waiting for.....













_________________
Amigaone X5000/20 4GB Radeon RX 550 Polaris 12 AmigaOS4.1 Final Edition Update 1
Amiga 1200 Workbench 3.1.4
Amiga CD32

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OlafS25 
Re: Hyperion reconsidering the subscription model for development
Posted on 2-Feb-2018 11:30:49
#75 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6321
From: Unknown

@outrun1978

you cannot create a profitable business model in the small AmigaOS community today, only a small minority would be willing to give substantial amount of money, you would milk the cow to death (if the cow is still alive anyway is something that can be discussed ;) ). Perhaps 10-15 years ago it would have worked, today with at best a few hundred enthusiasts you cannot collect enough money to create incentives or even pay somebody fulltime. You would need a big spender who pours really big money in it and is accepting that it will need long time to get back or even loose it. There is nobody willing to do that, not even Trevor D.. Another problem... if you ask say 70 EUR for a update people will ask what improvements they get, if there is not much then not many will buy it. Then the concept fails...

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OlafS25 
Re: Hyperion reconsidering the subscription model for development
Posted on 2-Feb-2018 11:54:18
#76 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6321
From: Unknown

@bison

To be honest the longer the hardware collects dust the more old fashioned and thus useless it becomes. Software projects (including open source like web browsers) are orientating at average hardware or even first class hardware, not at the slowest. Low cost PPC (at least relative low cost) are embedded hardware in todays terms, every low cost starter PC is much better today. The longer it needs until the hardware is available the worse it becomes. It will be a expensive toy finally. I doubt that they will sell many devices to new users (like Trevor hoped), the only buyer will be propably existing users who replace aging hardware

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Spectre660 
Re: Hyperion reconsidering the subscription model for development
Posted on 2-Feb-2018 13:30:44
#77 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 4-Jun-2005
Posts: 3918
From: Unknown

@outrun1978

X5000 as stable as my Sam460ex .
Occasional freeze on AmigaOS 4.1 boot probably due to running with dual graphics cards.
(Second card not active under AmigaOS 4.1).

Interestingly Sam460ex was freezing when copying large files. Seems to have been caused by a power supply issue. Swapped identical power supply model from a pc to the Sam460ex and both machines working well .

Last edited by Spectre660 on 02-Feb-2018 at 01:31 PM.

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Sam460ex : Radeon Rx550 Single slot Video Card : SIL3112 SATA card

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simplex 
Re: Hyperion reconsidering the subscription model for development
Posted on 2-Feb-2018 14:25:11
#78 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Oct-2003
Posts: 896
From: Hattiesburg, MS

@BigD

Quote:
A-EON can't afford that to happen.

I was under the impression that A-EON was floating this as a vanity project. I can't imagine they're that attached to Hyperion; if Hyperion went under then A-EON could work with whoever takes the rights.

_________________
I've decided to follow an awful lot of people I respect and leave AmigaWorld. If for some reason you want to talk to me, it shouldn't take much effort to find me.

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simplex 
Re: Hyperion reconsidering the subscription model for development
Posted on 2-Feb-2018 14:37:07
#79 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Oct-2003
Posts: 896
From: Hattiesburg, MS

@cgutjahr

Quote:
I guess there is (was?) at least one candidate willing to try (Dickinson)...

Right, this seems like a vanity project for him. I don't mean that in a negative way; I mean it in the way that he has the money to spend on something that won't make him money, and he enjoys doing it, so he does. Perhaps "prestige" project would be a better term.

Quote:
Most of the OS4 components are owned by Amiga Inc./Cloanto (3.1 Code) and the external authors (any new code for 4.x). If Hyperion ceases to exist, these external author will still own their code. Not to mention that no 3rd party has access to any source code for AmigaOS 4.

Does Amiga Inc. actually exist anymore? Apparently they can't even maintain a website, let alone defend any rights.

That aside, you're right; I'd forgotten about the situation where OS4 programmers owned their own code. I don't see how that changes my overall point, though: I can't imagine that Hyperion going under would make this any less complicated than it currently is. Hyperion lacks either the resources or the willpower to buy the relevant rights to the code in OS4, whereas with them out of the picture, (a) someone else may be willing and able to put the mess together, or (b) the programmers, seeing that no one was making money off the code anyway, would renounce their rights. After all, it's one thing to cling to copyright when someone is making money and you want to make sure you receive a royalty to which you're entitled. It's another thing to cling to copyright when all it does is make sure no one can use it.

But if the Amiga legacy worked the way I thought it should, Gateway would have gone through with the partnership with QNX, so...

Last edited by simplex on 02-Feb-2018 at 02:39 PM.

_________________
I've decided to follow an awful lot of people I respect and leave AmigaWorld. If for some reason you want to talk to me, it shouldn't take much effort to find me.

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number6 
Re: Hyperion reconsidering the subscription model for development
Posted on 2-Feb-2018 14:41:15
#80 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11540
From: In the village

@bison

Quote:
It would be kind of hard luck for Trevor, though, although of course he knew the risks going in


I'd have to respectfully add "not all of them".

#6

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This posting, in its entirety, represents solely the perspective of the author.
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