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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  Buy out AmigaOS once and for all?
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PosterThread
resle 
Buy out AmigaOS once and for all?
Posted on 7-Feb-2018 3:08:12
#1 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 28-Nov-2005
Posts: 500
From: shanghai

Following up to this topic on Hyperion's exploitat.... ehm, sales of AmigaOS so far.

If in 15 years Hyperion has been barely able to squeeze 400k-so USD from this niche business, I wonder what would it take to make a... collection, bounty, kickstarter, whatever it is - and just tell Hyperion: here's more-or-less what you made in the past 15 years. Don't struggle for 15 more, take this and go away.

Set AmigaOS free to be maintained by the community. Built nightly. Branched for porting to a different architecture. Merged with Aros. Again, whatever - it doesn't matter. Existing AmigaOS users would benefit from that shortly, and countless further development opportunities would open up.

End all those legal rigamaroles and countless arguments on how to make this or that a viable business. Do the right thing for everyone.

Hyperion by is grasping at straws, it's been quite obvious for a while and anyone with a pinch of business sense should have been able to do the math. So again, why keep begging for updates at 50 euro apiece and wait for years, instead of just putting down those 50 euro to make a global collection and pay the ransom to release AmigaOS' sources once and for all?

Are there 3-4 thousands "amigans" willing to chip in 50 euro apiece? Would Hyperion do a reality check and accept 2-300k usd or will they still keep daydreaming of making millions out of those worn-out assets that only matter to a tiny niche of loyalists?

Last edited by resle on 07-Feb-2018 at 03:09 AM.

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ferrels 
Re: Buy out AmigaOS once and for all?
Posted on 7-Feb-2018 4:59:22
#2 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 708
From: Arizona

@resle

Long answer: Good luck finding anyone who would want to buy such an outdated and mess of an operating system. Hyperion has essentially sat on it for 15 years and the only changes made to it were in the form of band-aid solutions that enabled it to run on ever scarcer and more expensive PPC CPU's. That's what happens when attorneys run technology companies. It's essentially the end-of-the-line for PPC hardware and OS4. They're both just too outdated to be worth very much to anyone other than nostalgia seekers and hardcore Amiga/OS4 fanatics. OS4 and PPC have been dead for quite a while but we have Amigans who rarely leave their caves and they're quite happy to be walled off from the rest of the world and think that somehow OS4 could be a viable alternative to current operating systems outside of the nostalgia niche.

Short answer: No.

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resle 
Re: Buy out AmigaOS once and for all?
Posted on 7-Feb-2018 5:40:17
#3 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 28-Nov-2005
Posts: 500
From: shanghai

@ferrels

Quote:
Long answer: Good luck finding anyone who would want to buy such an outdated and mess of an operating system


Make no mistake, I agree with you: it's an outdated mess of an operating system, and personally I am all for Aros. However look closer at this conundrum:

- There seem to be enough people willing to buy that mess 1,2,3 times for 30-50 euro every time, or even willing to spend thousands over machines built basically only to run that mess (Sam, X1000, X5000, etc.), and drool for years over minor updates and paid drivers (!!)

- Yet, there doesn't seem to be enough people willing to chip in the same amount all together, to get Hyperion out of the way and never pay again for their beloved mess.

Isn't that paradoxical?

Last edited by resle on 07-Feb-2018 at 05:41 AM.

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Amigo1 
Re: Buy out AmigaOS once and for all?
Posted on 7-Feb-2018 6:36:43
#4 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Jun-2004
Posts: 1433
From: Cork Ireland

@resle

What would change if Hyperion was "out of the way"? And why always pick on them? I don't really think they intentionally drove the boat to the point where it is now.

The only reason I could find they did it intentionally is, if going the paranoid conspiracy theory way. So they might have been paid millions or even billions of US$ by mircosfot to get things into a mess.
I do believe so vehemently the earth is flat and we've never been to space.. :roll

They did a lot of mistakes, but without them who would have jumped in back then when AmigaOS 4 was supposed to go PPC?

But let's say AmigaOS is open source, who is going to work on it? There only is a handful developers able to work on it. And if it's hard to find someone to work on it for free now, whey on earth would they work for free on it when it's open source?

At least now a fictional/potential contract could state there is a remote possibility to get paid if there is ever going to be some kind of selling-success.

What Amiga lacked after the Hi-Toro group was a visionary or some visionaries - and I'm not talking about the engineers/developers here - to take the platform somewhere.

If back then Haage&Partner, the MOS Team, AROS and why not, Hyperion had sat together and envisioned a future a little bit, they should have joined forces.
There had been fights for sure, but I like to think the outcome would have been better.
And nowadays A-EON / Trevor could probably invest money in the company instead of burning it.
I may add, the tenners burn pretty well, with the occasional spark here and there.. I could not afford it with 1k tenners tho..

I still enjoy AmigaOS, as of lately I bought ScanQuix 5.5 (I know, I could have downloaded it for free somewhere) and I'm happy it is working with my Amiga X1000 and X5000.
The OCR Software of fxScan works amazingly well too.

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ferrels 
Re: Buy out AmigaOS once and for all?
Posted on 7-Feb-2018 6:41:31
#5 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 708
From: Arizona

@resle

It's always the same tired set of fanatics who continue to buy it though.....they'll all eventually die off or run out of funds. Neither PPC nor OS4 have a snow ball's chance in hell of becoming main stream or even moving outside of its fanatical group of users.

And it's doubtful that any more PPC processors will even be produced to feed the fanatics from here on out anyway.....

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resle 
Re: Buy out AmigaOS once and for all?
Posted on 7-Feb-2018 7:11:25
#6 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 28-Nov-2005
Posts: 500
From: shanghai

@ferrels

You're probably right on their volume - and hopefully right on PPC...

@Amigo1


Quote:
What would change if Hyperion was "out of the way"? And why always pick on them? I don't really think they intentionally drove the boat to the point where it is now. 


No one said they did anything intentionally. They are just terrible at business, and the reson "we" pick at them is that they literally kidnapped Aos. They had it for a port, and exploited some legal loopholes to hold to it forever. Without them in the way, others might have done better.

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Hondo 
Re: Buy out AmigaOS once and for all?
Posted on 7-Feb-2018 7:31:25
#7 ]
Super Member
Joined: 10-Apr-2003
Posts: 1342
From: Denmark

@resle

It's a really really good idea which I personally would donate to

The slow unclear progress and annoying silence from them has been killing this platform steadily for many years.

As open source (perhaps linux/android core?) AmigaOS at least stand a chance of thriving again, and get the best treatment from users who deserves a funnier playground for their Amiga experience.

Maybe A-Eon, AmigaKit, Amiga Forever, would help chipping in a bit?

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wawa 
Re: Buy out AmigaOS once and for all?
Posted on 7-Feb-2018 8:16:13
#8 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5930
From: Unknown

it doesnt make sense to lose more money on that cause. especially, that as it shows the ownership, legality and licensing here is questionable. ill certainly not pay a dime.

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resle 
Re: Buy out AmigaOS once and for all?
Posted on 7-Feb-2018 8:35:23
#9 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 28-Nov-2005
Posts: 500
From: shanghai

@wawa

Neither would I. Maybe I should have specified that mine was not a wish or a call for action. Just some line of logical reasoning.

As in "Attn: to you all who keep being disgruntled at Aos yet paying / wishing / waiting. Why don't you bla bla bla etc. etc. ?"

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Trixie 
Re: Buy out AmigaOS once and for all?
Posted on 7-Feb-2018 9:16:36
#10 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Sep-2003
Posts: 1629
From: Czech Republic

@resle

I think one major problem with your suggestion is that even if Hyperiou could sell you the licence (granted to them as a result of the settlement agreement), they can't sell you the OS itself - simply because they don't own it. For example, the Exec NG is owned by the Friedens and various other components are the property of their respective developers. So you can't just collect the money from users and make a bulk purchase.

I really don't know why Hyperion clings to OS4 so much even if it apparently doesn't make any business sense. Perhaps the licence is not transferable so they can't sell it even if they wanted to. Perhaps facing bankruptcy and being hated by users is somebody's strange hobby. Perhaps Hyperion is used as a shell to help out some other business (did anybody say 'money laundering'?). We can only speculate.

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Slash 
Re: Buy out AmigaOS once and for all?
Posted on 7-Feb-2018 10:05:58
#11 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 683
From: Newcastle-upon-Tyne, UK

Wow, it's been a while since I posted here!

Anyway, whilst I don't think that making AmigaOS open-source is a good idea, I do think they, whoever is in charge or the whole shebang, needs to rethink their strategy and get rid of the ridiculous notion that you need to spend £2,000 on a niche PPC machine to run what is essentially a hobby OS.

Hobby noun: an activity done regularly in one's leisure time for pleasure.

There's nothing wrong that of course, and there's definitely a small niche market to tap into if marketed correctly. I've said this before and I still think that it's a huge missed opportunity to ignore another niche hobby platform which is screaming out for a hobby OS which is easy to use and tinker with...



Cut a deal with Raspberry Pi is what I'm saying with my little mockup. It'll fly off the shelves.

Last edited by Slash on 07-Feb-2018 at 10:09 AM.

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agami 
Re: Buy out AmigaOS once and for all?
Posted on 7-Feb-2018 10:13:06
#12 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 500
From: Melbourne, Australia

@resle

The problem is, Hyperion (Ben) places too high a value on it. I tried in 2015 to negotiate a fork of the OS that would not compete with AmigaOS 4, and also offered to merge back any advancements my team would make. He wanted too much in Escrow in case someone "leaked" the source and they would be covered for the damages. If what he told me is true about the amount of money invested in it, they are nowhere near to making their money back on the product.

I will try again when I have the kind of money Hyperion will be satisfied with.

Last edited by agami on 07-Feb-2018 at 10:14 AM.

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Leo 
Re: Buy out AmigaOS once and for all?
Posted on 7-Feb-2018 10:55:14
#13 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1578
From: Unknown

Aros has already been ported to multiple architectures and is already open source: why buying AmigaOS? Only for the name?

How about spending some time/money to update/fix Aros instead?

Seeing how/why/when OS4 was created, it's clear they went too far and it all went personal so there is no way they will release OS4 to the public. Other "bad" camp could make use of their work.

Everything has gone too far, both in terms of what they did (and why), and also for how long they did it.

I also believe open source is the only logical way forward, but I don't see it happening. I'm pretty sure that 5 years for now someone will still be trying to sell some 37 (by then) years old 1.x rom/kickstart or disk image. Don't expect the same people to release their work to the public, even if you could collect enough money for that.

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amigang 
Re: Buy out AmigaOS once and for all?
Posted on 7-Feb-2018 11:36:48
#14 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2005
Posts: 1392
From: Cheshire, England

I agree with the points here, it would be nice if they went "well we no longer have the resource to develop this, lets sell it for amount we invested in it and be done with it!" But the problem is even at cost I recon Hyperion would want 400K euros, which i think would be hard to raise, not impossible, but be hard, then I think there be cost to open source OS, there maybe third party developers who have worked on it who might want there work removed or not open sourced or again money to release it. There might be legal commitment to port and develop the Os for A-eon system, like the X1000, X5000, A1222 to a least support SMP and get to OS4.2. And of course there the value of AmigaOS branding, which is worth something, as without it we be all on Aros and supporting that, not buying £1,500+ machines to enjoy it on. Plus out side of the little Amiga community I do still think Amiga brand is quite popular, particularly in the retro market and as we've seen films and book raise tens of thousands of pounds who knows what future money could be raised by AmigaOS branding. So any company who got that is going to want something for its name.

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Leo 
Re: Buy out AmigaOS once and for all?
Posted on 7-Feb-2018 11:41:36
#15 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1578
From: Unknown

Quote:

I think there be cost to open source OS, there maybe third party developers who have worked on it who might want there work removed or not open sourced or again money to release it.

You also forget about the licence they have: can it be transferred? sold? Would they have the rights to release the source code? Since it's based on OS 3.x which Cloano holds the rights too, you'd also have to talk with them too I'm afraid (ie: convince = pay them).

Last edited by Leo on 07-Feb-2018 at 11:44 AM.

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StarF 
Re: Buy out AmigaOS once and for all?
Posted on 7-Feb-2018 13:00:57
#16 ]
New Member
Joined: 5-Dec-2009
Posts: 9
From: Unknown



Why bother? AmigaOS is so far behind it will never catch up.

It would be much better to take something like DragonFLY BDS kernel, and build upon that. To get a modern OS. DragonFly BSD already has some amigaísh features, along with a lot of modern features. Fork that shit, add some other and build a new proper gui (i always liked enchancement gui) and get a platform that is much easier to delivere modern applications to, than keep trying to build upon AmigaOS.. Hell even Microsoft gaveup Dos, and Apple its System os (or what ever they called it)...

Just build in some emulation/sandbox for old stuff. It could become pretty interesting.

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KimmoK 
Re: Buy out AmigaOS once and for all?
Posted on 7-Feb-2018 13:28:27
#17 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5090
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@resle

I might try to use the 3-4k*50 bounty for something else.
If I had a lot of money I would pay AmigaOS flavors to co-operate and end all legal sillyness once and for all.
Next the true next generation should be specified and agreed, money would help also on that.
Then it would be wicked fun to be able to fund the kickstart of next gen "A"OS.
When next gen framework is agreed, then see if anything can be sanely ported from AOS4/morpghOS/AROS/whatever.

@Starf

>Why bother? AmigaOS is so far behind it will never catch up.

It does not need to catch up. It's ok to be different.
Good way to narrow the gap would be to kick start legacy free next gen, possibly re-using some things, but if re-use is not worth it, then write from scratch. (later a sandbox can do the legacy support)

>It would be much better to take something like DragonFLY BDS kernel, and build upon that. To get a modern OS. DragonFly BSD already has some amigaísh features, along with a lot of modern features.

I would take core OS dudes together to analyze if it's worth it.

>Just build in some emulation/sandbox for old stuff.

IMO: build AOS5(64bit,SMP,MP,etc+more) now and sandbox could be done later if someone needs it.

Last edited by KimmoK on 07-Feb-2018 at 01:30 PM.

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number6 
Re: Buy out AmigaOS once and for all?
Posted on 7-Feb-2018 14:06:13
#18 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 10136
From: In the village

@agami

Quote:
If what he told me is true about the amount of money invested in it, they are nowhere near to making their money back on the product.


I doubt you'll respond, but I'm curious if the amount included Ben's investment into AmigaDE or the investment in the Collas - Gateway revival, or the "investment" into the 1st lawsuit, or the existing debts, or.....

Source

Oh, and that little thing about shareholders and contracts might be worth considering:
Source

Perhaps resle should consider adjusting his figures, if amounts of money beyond the specific scope of AmigaOS4 development costs are to be considered?

#6

Last edited by number6 on 07-Feb-2018 at 02:32 PM.

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jorit2 
Re: Buy out AmigaOS once and for all?
Posted on 7-Feb-2018 14:30:50
#19 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Apr-2011
Posts: 215
From: Unknown

@Leo

Quote:

Everything has gone too far, both in terms of what they did (and why), and also for how long they did it.


Not to mention the human cost.
Some lives and futures have been destroyed by this endeavour.
There has been treason, friendships and partnerships have been shattered ...

For some (you know who you are ... ) I wonder whether they can still make rational decisions.
I for one have been through some rough times, and I haven't always been rational.

Evert

Last edited by jorit2 on 07-Feb-2018 at 02:33 PM.

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resle 
Re: Buy out AmigaOS once and for all?
Posted on 7-Feb-2018 14:36:51
#20 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 28-Nov-2005
Posts: 500
From: shanghai

@jorit2

The shattering of lives and friendships:

That's what always happens to families (or "families" in this case) who somehow happen to become the recipient of a heritage that was bigger than what they were prepared to handle.

Brothers against brothers, holding to the treasure chest until they wish they never got it in first place.

Seems a bit that case here.

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