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      /  Waiting for network to shut down...
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Deniil715 
Waiting for network to shut down...
Posted on 14-Feb-2018 22:17:06
#1 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-May-2003
Posts: 4236
From: Sweden

[rant=on]
"Waiting for network to shut down..."

NetShutdown has to be the STUPIDEST thing ever in the history of Amiga networking!

This s**t NEVER works. The silly RoadShow-noshow sends Ctrl-C to all applications that has bsdsocket.library open and expect them to react as Linux apps. HAHAHA!! wtf...
And then the stupid f**k DOESN'T react to Ctrl-C itself

Why do we even need this? Yes, because RoadShow is the only TCP/IP stack running today that can't handle a network change, such as changing switch or reconfiguring the router.

Even Miami handled this better. Just click Offline, then Online. Done. Irregardless if any app had bsdsocket.library open. If you acted fast (like from an arexx script) you could even do offline/online with a running download! RoadShow - Reboot is the only option.

Comeon,
1. Ctrl-C does not work on AmigaOS.
2. There should not be a need to shut down network when moving the network cable.
3. Shutting down network should be possibly without the need to expunge bsdsocket.library from memory.

[rant=off]

Last edited by _Steve_ on 21-Feb-2018 at 01:52 AM.

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Chris_Y 
Re: Waiting for network to shut down...
Posted on 14-Feb-2018 23:43:24
#2 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2003
Posts: 3203
From: Beds, UK

@Deniil715

1) Yes it does. It's even documented somewhere (although I can't find it now) that bsdsocket sends a Ctrl-C to all processes on shutdown. It's not hard to check for Ctrl-C arriving, at which point the application should at least close bsdsocket.library. Most command-line stuff is probably already doing this, which is presumably why it sends a Ctrl-C rather than something more exotic or "Amiga-like".
Furthermore, I'm pretty sure this is an AmiTCP "feature" (and more than likely a BSDSocketAPI one) rather than being Roadshow-specific.

If it doesn't work, complain to the person who wrote the software which doesn't comply.

2) Agreed.

3) Also agreed.

Olaf will undoubtedly be able to provide more information on the reasons for 2 and 3.

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Petah 
Re: Waiting for network to shut down...
Posted on 15-Feb-2018 0:13:03
#3 ]
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Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 432
From: EU <3 ❤️

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broadblues 
Re: Waiting for network to shut down...
Posted on 15-Feb-2018 2:14:28
#4 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4446
From: Portsmouth England

@Deniil715

Quote:

Comeon,
1. Ctrl-C does not work on AmigaOS.


If couse it does. SIGBREAKF_CTRL_C is a real and amiga thing.

Quote:

2. There should not be a need to shut down network when moving the network cable.


You should be shutting down the whole machine when reconnecting cables, not just the network!

I can power my router down and back up again and the majority of times roadshow doesn't even notice. It certainly doesn't glicth when I do a reset via the routers web interface. I tun my SAM and X1000 permanently linked via MKShare and NetFS and they just pcikup where they left off.


Quote:

3. Shutting down network should be possibly without the need to expunge bsdsocket.library from memory.


Don't know about that one, but I can't imagine Olaf would design something that way if it didn't need it.

Last edited by broadblues on 15-Feb-2018 at 02:16 AM.
Last edited by broadblues on 15-Feb-2018 at 02:16 AM.

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olsen 
Re: Waiting for network to shut down...
Posted on 15-Feb-2018 12:20:32
#5 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 15-Aug-2004
Posts: 774
From: Germany

@Deniil715

Quote:

Deniil715 wrote:
[rant=on]
"Waiting for network to shut down..."

NetShutdown has to be the STUPIDEST thing ever in the history of Amiga networking!


No, that would be me, I suppose

There is a bug in the NetShutdown command which can keep it hanging around in spite of the fact that bsdsocket.library has already given it the "all clear"/"no go" signal.

Timm Mueller found the bug in July last year. A bug fix is ready, but the past six months have not been kind to me in terms of doing Roadshow-ish stuff

I will try to do better this year (which, considering how last year turned out should not be much of a challenge).

If you would like to fix the bug in the command (source code is provided with Roadshow) and rebuild it, have a look at line 558 which reads as follows:


if(control_port != NULL && control_port->ncp_Magic != NCPM_Cookie)


It should read like this:


if(control_port != NULL && control_port->ncp_Magic == NCPM_Cookie)


Quote:

This sh!t NEVER works. The silly RoadShow-noshow sends Ctrl-C to all applications that has bsdsocket.library open and expect them to react as Linux apps. HAHAHA!! wtf...
And then the stupid fuck DOESN'T react to Ctrl-C itself


It does react to the Ctrl+C signal, it's just that it didn't necessarily see that bsdsocket.library already notified it of what the state of affairs is. NetShutdown can either hang around and wait until bsdsocket.library has signalled it, or you can tell it to wait for a certain number of seconds before a timeout elapses and it exits. In any case, Ctrl+C is supposed to make it pick up its stuff and exit. This is how I implemented it, but it currently doesn't work due to the bug mentioned above. Incidentally, that bug has been in there since 2005

Quote:

Why do we even need this? Yes, because RoadShow is the only TCP/IP stack running today that can't handle a network change, such as changing switch or reconfiguring the router.

Even Miami handled this better. Just click Offline, then Online. Done.

Well... it's complicated. Taking a network interface offline and then online again does not imply that the DHCP process has to be rerun. Roadshow still plays by the 1990 rules of SANA-II which saw network devices as either Ethernet or ARCNET hardware which was connected to a bus (10BASE-2, etc.), rather than this newfangled 10BASE-T thingy (which is older than the SANA-II standard - go figure). Going "offline" or "online" basically meant unplugging the NIC from the bus and plugging it back in. Old school indeed... On the 10BASE-T link you can detect if there is a carrier signal on the wire, and at least some Amiga Ethernet drivers are capable of signalling the TCP/IP stack that the link state has changed. Really: not all drivers support this...

That said, automatically triggering a rerun of the DHCP process when the network interface transitions back to "online" is necessary and trying to make do with the (currently broken) NetShutdown command is not an option.

Making this work has been on the TODO list for quite a while now, but I didn't get enough stuff done in the past six months

Last edited by olsen on 15-Feb-2018 at 12:22 PM.

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tbreeden 
Re: Waiting for network to shut down...
Posted on 15-Feb-2018 17:41:09
#6 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 8-Feb-2004
Posts: 117
From: Charlottesville, Virginia, USA

@olsen

Thanks much for the calm and reasoned reply to the posted rant.

We in the USA hardly ever see such a thing nowadays.

tom

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daveyw 
Re: Waiting for network to shut down...
Posted on 15-Feb-2018 20:37:28
#7 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 6-Mar-2011
Posts: 276
From: New Zealand

@Deniil715

Why did you obfuscate 1 mild swear word, but openly use another, more offensive one?

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---------------
AmigaOne X5000 P5020 2Ghz, OS 4.1
AmigaOne XE G4 800mhz, OS 4.1
A1200T 40Mhz 68040, OS 3.9

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PR 
Re: Waiting for network to shut down...
Posted on 15-Feb-2018 21:32:58
#8 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Sep-2004
Posts: 1961
From: Suomi-Finland

Something wrong with the Original OS4 and Miami with the more Classic or AmiTCP or else?

Why is Roadshow ?

Quite easy to Shut as there is a power button.

(And Please take this as a joke, there is a TV too with little Amigagirl fans have to say close)



Last edited by PR on 15-Feb-2018 at 09:40 PM.
Last edited by PR on 15-Feb-2018 at 09:36 PM.

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Petah 
Re: Waiting for network to shut down...
Posted on 15-Feb-2018 21:51:47
#9 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 432
From: EU <3 ❤️

Olaf - being a big fan of all your work ever since Term, I'd like the opportunity to say some of us are actually pleased with Roadshow. In fact, I've bought one license for myself and another one for my brother (... sort of - the e-store platform being used doesn't support proper gifting, so I had to create the user account for him in the process). Oh, and on top of that, said brother found a recently aquired boxed copy of Legend of Faerghail in christmas wrapping, too.

That being said, now may as good a time as any to request a feature. I think it would be really nice for Roadshow to implement full support for shutdown.library, and something tells me it wouldn't be that much of a hassle? Perhaps it's something to at least consider putting on the roadmap?

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PR 
Re: Waiting for network to shut down...
Posted on 16-Feb-2018 0:20:28
#10 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Sep-2004
Posts: 1961
From: Suomi-Finland

Here that could be very useful.

Shut Down

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Hypex 
Re: Waiting for network to shut down...
Posted on 16-Feb-2018 15:23:17
#11 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Deniil715

LOL. I do know what you mean. Perhaps what most bugs me about NetShutdown and the rest of RoadShow (or OlafShow) is that it lacks an integrated GUI. So resetting the network is awkward. I too have seen it stall and just given up.

The cable detection problem is an old one and also non-Amiga like as an Amiga standard was detecting when disks were removed. It's almost as if it has gone back to the days before interrupts. And it's sending ping data down the line. Hello? Hello? Is anyone on the line? Ha!

Having said that I've thought that perhaps commodity or some such program could run in the background and check the connection every second or so. If it drops, which can be hard to check for exactly, then reset the connection.

Last edited by Hypex on 17-Feb-2018 at 02:10 PM.

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olsen 
Re: Waiting for network to shut down...
Posted on 16-Feb-2018 17:58:36
#12 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 15-Aug-2004
Posts: 774
From: Germany

@Petah

Quote:

Petah wrote:
Olaf - being a big fan of all your work ever since Term, I'd like the opportunity to say some of us are actually pleased with Roadshow.

Thank you I believe that most of Roadshow works sufficiently well. It's the bits needing work which are difficult to address. For example, restarting the DHCP address/route/DNS configuration for a network interface is difficult because the code to restart it currently resides in the AddNetInterface/ConfigureNetInterface commands. I haven't figured out a sane/sound way to migrate that functionality into bsdsocket.library yet, which so far only handles the case of the IP address lease expiration and renewal. However, this is going to happen, it has to.

Quote:

In fact, I've bought one license for myself and another one for my brother (... sort of - the e-store platform being used doesn't support proper gifting, so I had to create the user account for him in the process). Oh, and on top of that, said brother found a recently aquired boxed copy of Legend of Faerghail in christmas wrapping, too.

Yikes! Actually, I did something about "Legend of Faerghail" in 2015/2016 which might sound interesting to you.

Firstly, I debugged and cleaned up the code 25 years after the game had been published. Funny thing, it actually took 25 years for me to be able to do that As a consequence, several of the game's features which were thoroughly broken now actually work, such as monsters roaming the halls and following or fleeing the party. I discovered that the combat encounters between the party and the monsters were fundamentally broken, as I had wired up the logic the wrong way round which decided whether a party member attacking a monster would land a hit. Similar hard to spot simple mistakes with unfortunate consequences abounded... With these problems fixed the game instantly became a lot more playable and a lot more fun.

Secondly, with the bugs fixed, I started investigating whether it might be possible to build a new English language version on these foundations. The game shipped in two distinct forms, one with German text and one with English text. Because the English language version shipped later, I managed to fix bugs in the game which were never merged back into the German version until recently. The new debugged version is the German language version which then created the problem of how to make it work in English. Long story short, it took a week of work, preparing the changes, but there is now a working English language version of the game with all the bugs fixed I could find.

Mind you, some bugs are unfixable because of poor design and implementation decisions I made when I was barely 19 years old...

Quote:

That being said, now may as good a time as any to request a feature. I think it would be really nice for Roadshow to implement full support for shutdown.library, and something tells me it wouldn't be that much of a hassle? Perhaps it's something to at least consider putting on the roadmap?

I think I know the author

I am not so sure if what shutdown.library does is technically sound any more. It was borderline useful/dangerous and could easily turn on the edge of a knife :-/

Last edited by olsen on 16-Feb-2018 at 05:58 PM.

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olsen 
Re: Waiting for network to shut down...
Posted on 16-Feb-2018 18:17:18
#13 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 15-Aug-2004
Posts: 774
From: Germany

@Hypex

Quote:

Hypex wrote:
@Deniil715

LOL. I do know what you mean. Perhaps what most bugs me about NetShutdown and the rest of RoadShow (or OlafShow) is that it lacks an integrated GUI. So resetting the network is awkward. I too have seen it stall and just given up.

That problem is fixable, and quite easily fixable.

But I already messed up the Roadshow update script which is supposed to fix a bug in the "Ping" command. Not making a mess of the update script is currently very high on my TODO list.

Once it get that right, I will be able to deliver the remaining fixes.

Or we might just bundle them all up in a separate archive which everybody could download and install manually.

Quote:

The cable detection problem is an old one and also non-Amiga like as an Amiga standard was detecting when disks were removed. It's almost as if it has gone back to the days before interrupts. And it's sending ping data down the line/. Hello? Hello? Is anyone on the line? Ha!

There is no straightforward approach for detecting media changes if the underlying hardware is uncooperative. You could ping the default gateway in regular intervals and try to draw conclusions from lack of responses. This does not have to be perfect but it has to be plausible. I struggle with the "plausible" bit. To send IP packets across the wire and to make a good decision on whether or not what came back suggests that the link has gone down/gone up is difficult.

For example, this is like flipping a light switch in the dark, and concluding from it staying dark that the power must have failed. Sure, if the power has failed, the light will definitely not switch on. But it's also possible that there might be a wiring problem, the switch itself may have a mechanical problem, or the light bulb might have burned out.

The most reliable information to use would be the driver telling Roadshow that the link status has changed. Trying to infer this information by other means is going to be much more difficult by comparison.

Quote:

Havign said that I've thought that perhaps commodity or some such program could run in the background and check the connection every second or so. If it drops, which can be hard to check for exactly, then reset the connection.

It's doable, but, as I mentioned, inferring a link status change from IP traffic behaviour is speculative at best. For example, you would have to ping a certain host, but what if that host were restarted, would drop out or have its IP address changed? Then the link was still good, and resetting the state of things would not resolve the problem. For example, with such a test delivering ambiguous results you could still use an FTP or SMB connection to a local server, and resetting the network connection would put an end to that, although it would not be necessary.

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Petah 
Re: Waiting for network to shut down...
Posted on 16-Feb-2018 22:51:40
#14 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 432
From: EU <3 ❤️

Quote:
However, this is going to happen, it has to.


And you know what? I have every reason to believe it will happen, at least eventually. Some people are a lot about talk, while others are more about walk. With all of the work you've invested in AmigaOS caretaking and application development in mind, I think it's safe to say you've proven yourself time and again.

Quote:
Actually, I did something about "Legend of Faerghail" in 2015/2016 which might sound interesting to you. Firstly, I debugged and cleaned up the code 25 years after the game had been published.


A while ago Blizzard stirred up quite some buzz when they announced releasing the first patch for Starcraft in close to a decade. I think it's safe to say they've got absolutely nothing on you. That being said, I'm glad to hear you have the source code in store, and even more glad to hear you are actually maintaining it. To be honest, I've yet to see Legend of Faerghail in person so I don't know of any of its shortcomings, but I'll take your word the recent improvements add to the gameplay. On a side note, when my brother got his christmas present, I did mention to him that - at least as far as I know - Legend of Faerghail sorts itself into the small group of games that lets the OS task scheduler do its job. Further binary analysis should reveal if it has a $VER version string, too (if not, perhaps the new build will have one!).

Regarding the two versions, I don't suppose support for locale.library and merging the code base would be doable? It does sound like an elegant solution, especially with code maintenance in mind.

Oh, and hey - is there any way for people with physical copies of the game to get hold of the update (and any other updates down the road, for that matter)?

Quote:
I am not so sure if what shutdown.library does is technically sound any more. It was borderline useful/dangerous and could easily turn on the edge of a knife :-/


Well, I've used shutdown.library on my A3000 over the years with absolutely no fuss at all (being the solid piece of code it has turned out to be, I've come to think of it as an official extension of AmigaOS). Adding support for Roadshow seems like a no-brainer to me - as does a proper translation of the API documentation! :) Even though I can't say my own adventures in AmigaOS application development in C is anywhere close to what you've achieved, please rest assured I'd look for every single excuse I could find to support shutdown.library if/when English autodocs will be available.

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Hypex 
Re: Waiting for network to shut down...
Posted on 17-Feb-2018 14:47:31
#15 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia

@daveyw

I notice that too! Also using the "word" Irregardless may also be offensive to the English language. I recall the conversations on the AmigaOS4 email list and how Dr. Keller told us it was wrong. But now that's in accepted use I read. Perhaps NetShutdown will also be deemed acceptable one day. Deniil715 hasn't yet come back to comment.

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kolla 
Re: Waiting for network to shut down...
Posted on 18-Feb-2018 0:10:06
#16 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 2859
From: Trondheim, Norway

On my A3000/CSPPC I have both OS3.9 and OS4.1 (and old MorphOS), with Roadshow and a USB ethernet on a Deneb card. OS3.9 with current Roadshow works great (as does MorphOS), but with OS4.1FE it does not work well. For example, if I ping the gw, and establish a connection with for example AmTelnet to some host, I get umpteen so called duplicated ping responses (and no, the remote host does not send them) and the AmTelnet session hangs up to a few seconds, for every key press I send through.

It would be so much more practical if Roadshow for OS4 could be updated independently of OS4 itself, along with the 68k version.

Last edited by kolla on 18-Feb-2018 at 12:11 AM.

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