@BigD

It's with faith (aka belief with unnecessary to evidence) that one assumes religions are anything but man-made.

Billy Graham a selfless life? He built a small empire with a personal net worth of over $25Million. Last time I read the bible Jesus did show selfishness. Graham was a profit making prophet. Who fleeced the flock.

What's wrong with being Christian? It all depends on how one approaches their faith. In the USA we've seen authoritative demands from Christians that their god-view gets special consideration and power above the US Constitution. Opposition of this group results in condensation as they call out for being pleased there's a forth coming eternal torment that people not in their view faces. Right-Wing religious fascists exist in all faiths. Christianity has their own as well. Anyone can believe in what they want. Once they mandate I believe in their beliefs, there are problems. Christianity has a rich history of mandating faith or dying by the sword.

Freedoms, lacks of slavery, women's rights, equality, and well modern society. They are rooted in non-Christian values. There's no need to base 21st Century societies on 12th Century translations of 1st Century myths.

(But again people can believe what they want, just don't force it on anyone. Even if they believe the deity they've decided to be shackled to mandates it.)

@BrianK

Quote:

Freedoms, lacks of slavery, women's rights, equality, and well modern society. They are rooted in non-Christian values.

An absolute delusion that makes you seem completely naive and uninformed. William Wilberforce (a Christian) worked tirelessly to abolish the slave trade in the UK and the American colonies. The Magna Carta written to limit the powers of tyrannical monarchy and enshrining legal freedoms for the common man until this day originated from the Christian church. Women are given purpose, value and their own roles complementing men in the Bible. Women are given a special place in God's plan without the unrealistic secular 'feminist' idea that states that women are the 'same' as men which is simply not true and not reflected in reality! There is nothing 'modern' about the widespread cultural acceptance of abortion (and in the coming decades no doubt infanticide too), euthanasia and the equality agenda hypocrisy of the aggressive and increasingly violent persecution of Christians and the intolerance of all worship or public acknowledgement of God and in particular Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour.

There is nothing new under the sun and we either acknowledge great and faithful men and women like Billy Graham and the God he served or we better prepare for our western society to decline and to be replaced by either a persecuting force or a new society that DOES acknowledge and worship Yahweh. You don't have to agree with me but that's the way it is going. You can't murder the next generation, worship lady boys, ridicule God's faithful servants, experiment on human embryos, undermine the 'Christian' based legal systems our western culture is built on and expect our 'modern' society to go from strength to strength

@jorit2

Billy Graham was a great example in our time and you are so blinkered you missed it! Now you see how factual accurate the Gospel of Jesus coming to Earth was! People failed to see that he was the Messiah because they were blinded by their prejudices and lack of faith. Sound familiar?

Last edited by BigD on 08-Mar-2018 at 10:08 PM.

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@BigD

You're utterly hopeless.

I made my point, it's pointless to keep dwelling on it.

Evert

PS: Did you have a look at the videos I recommended ?

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@jorit2

No, my thread is not titled 'I'm a Christian so try and convince me there is no God' or 'Please educate me on what a born again believer David Bowie turned out to be'! You must have misread the title. More importantly...

Did you watch the thanksgiving service?
Did you read Mark's Gospel?
Should you take these things more seriously rather than attempt to 'enlighten' me?!

Last edited by BigD on 09-Mar-2018 at 12:44 PM.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

Quote:

You must have misread the title.

You may not have picked the best title ... or you may have pushed the conversation in a way that was not exactly in line with the title :-p

Let me enlighten you ...

The title ... and then ..

Quote:

'm sure we can all agree he was an inspiring man who brought hope in the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ to a lot of people across the world. He took the great commission to spread the good news seriously and will be sorely missed in a world that is now accelerating towards post-truth world views without many guiding lights to show us the way or give us hope.

I reacted to I'm sure and all that follows ...

Quote:

Guess again ... Sorry BigD ... but I will till the end of my days fight this kind of crap ... which I honestly think is one of the biggest problems this world faces.

I still stand by that comment as a reaction to your post

But then you felt the need to spout out even more bullshit ... and from what I can tell not exactly in line with the title .... or am I missing something ?

Quote:

I don't recall Christians dishing about abuse following George Michael's death despite his promotion and revelment in a promiscious and anti-Christian 'lifestyle'. I guess it shows the difference between Christian values and aggressive secular ones. I know what sort of society I want my children to grow up in; one that actually acknowledges its Christian heritage and realises that without it we are all rudderless on the way to cultural oblivion! May God raise up more Billy Graham's to bring the UK and other faltering western nations back from the brink.

Shall we end this here ?

We could go on and on forever and neither one of us will enlighten the other.

So let me conclude my wishing you a nice weekend !

Evert

Last edited by jorit2 on 09-Mar-2018 at 07:23 PM.

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@BigD
You love to wave Wilberforce as an opponent of slavery, yet you totally ignore the fact that Wilberforce was a non-conformist who received the majority of his opposition from fellow Christians, especially the Christian Bishops in the House of Lords.
The bible not only condones and supports slavery,it even tells how a Hebrew slave can be pressurised into surrendering his freedom that he is entitled to after seven years, reducing himself and his offspring to the status of property in .perpetuity.
You talk of "the persecution of Christians as though it were a real thing. Christians are directly responsible for more acts of oppression, murder, and genocide than the next two religions combined, pushing Islam, another one of the three Abrahamic faiths into a poor second place.

Your vile cult of death opposes all forms of democracy, demanding instead that anything less than total, unquestioning obedience of the Priest or Pastor is heresy punishable by death. And how does your fascistic faith use its authority? It uses it by supporting paedophiles, amassing great wealth, and interfering with the democratic processes in many countries.

There is nothing factually accurate in any part of the bible which is demonstrated by the hundreds of discrepancies, contradictions, scientific and historical errors, and internal inconsistencies

The Christian fairytale can't even decide whether "Jesus" was supposed to have been born *before* Archelaus became Ethnarch of Judaea,
Matthew 2 "Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,"
Or after Archelaus was deposed by the Romans.
Luke 2 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed.
2 (And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.)
Cyrenius is the English rendition of κυρηνιος the Hellenised version of the name Publius Sulpicius Quirinius, governor of Syria from AD6 to AD12

Who was Josephs Father?
*Jacob* (Matthew1:16)
or
*Heli* (Luke3:23)
Matthew 1
16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
and
Luke 3
23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
Or maybe Joseph was the product of gay sex, and only a homosexual was worthy of raising the son of your fictional deity.

Western society has made more scientific, technical, social advances in the last two hundred years than religion managed in the preceding two millennia. Faith is not required to believe a demonstrable truth. Faith is only required to believe a lie. Faith is the rabbit hole of self-delusion.
"Faith is the excuse you give when you have no good reason for your beliefs" Matt Dillahunty
As living standards improve in the Western democracies, and education supplants indoctrination your puerile superstition is dying of old age and senile decay. Churches stand empty and are either being sold to other religious groups, sold as entertainment venues, or better yet, demolished.

As a child I worshipped your deity, but once learned the skill of critical thinking I realised that all religions were fraudulent. At that time very few were willing to admit to being an Atheist and the churches were always full, now there are more Atheists and Agnostics in the UK than there are Christians. Progress is being made

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@BigD
I don't care what you titled the thread, the contents are a demand that we feel sorry for some lying piece of filth who set himself up as an Eminence Gris wielding huge political power but accepting no consequence or blame. He opposed equal rights for women just as he opposed the civil rights movements. Somebody like that shouldn't have their life celebrated, we shouldn't even celebrate their death. We should just breathe a sigh of relief that the world is now a cleaner place.

No, I didn't give thanks for that odious and obnoxious man.
YES I have read the gospel titled "Mark" It is full of errors inconsistencies, and plagiarised mythology.
Why should I take the bible seriously when it is as fictional as a Batman comic but without the high moral principles that stories about a masked vigilante contain.

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@Nimrod

Quote:

we feel sorry for some lying piece of filth

A) Your language is indecent, reign it in.
B) Billy Graham is with Jesus in heaven now and is in a far better place. You should not feel sorry for this upright and Godly individual but you should ask yourself about the hope he had in life after death and consider your own mortality. The perfect way to start doing that would be to ACTUALLY watch the thanksgiving service rather than just rant!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIkEjFiUqwU

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@BigD

Quote:

.... consider your own mortality ...

What's there to consider ? The machine stops working and decomposes.

Evert

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@jorit2

... and yet we all have an eternal soul. It is not natural for human beings to embrace annihilation If that is your bag you're even out of luck in hell as it's billed as an eternity of torment apart from God and hence everything that is good That includes music before you make a joke about rock music etc. The likes of Billy Graham and evangelists in general would like to spare you that torment and work selflessly to encourage you to turn to God and embrace your true purpose (i.e. to worship God with your life).

Last edited by BigD on 10-Mar-2018 at 07:32 PM.

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John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

Just goes to show how diametrically opposed our philosophical foundations are

and yet our souls are ephemeral
I'm not even convinced we have a soul, "It's an illusion" is the best way I can describe it.

Evert

BTW: I never made jokes about (rock) music.

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@jorit2

Quote:

BTW: I never made jokes about (rock) music.

i.e. The, "Hell has the best rock and roll bands so I'd rather by there" argument. It's a common flippant remark from people that subscribe to a Monty Python / Tenacious D type view of heaven and hell. You might not have made that joke but I was second guessing you in case you did

Last edited by BigD on 10-Mar-2018 at 07:56 PM.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

Second guessing someone ... that's a dangerous game ...

Evert

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@jorit2

Quote:

jorit2 wrote: @BigD Second guessing someone ... that's a dangerous game ...

So is hoping to jam with Jim Morrison in hell That was my point. Obviously if you believe we just cease to exist then none of this, not even morality, systems of governance or simple concepts of human decency matter at all (explains the rudeness from Nimrod ). It then all kind of boils down to whoever dies with the most toys wins!

Billy Graham claimed he'd found the true meaning of life and a real saviour worth following in Jesus Christ. This isn't just wishful thinking. Jesus was either God on earth, a madman or the anti-Christ leading us astray. You can't just be ambivalent to Him you have to decide whether you accept Him or reject Him. It'll be that black and white when we die. He wasn't just a good bloke who was misunderstood. That opinion is not open to you.

Last edited by BigD on 10-Mar-2018 at 10:06 PM.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

So is hoping to jam with Jim Morrison in hell That was my point.

Quote:

Obviously if you believe we just cease to exist then none of this, not even morality, systems of governance or simple concepts of human decency matter at all (explains the rudeness from Nimrod ).

And that's where you are wrong

I for instance think that education is the biggest concern in this world, and I do spend quite a lot on charities related to education. I am a decent human being, don't drink, no drugs, I'm not promiscuous, I value honesty above anything else ... I try to be nice to my fellow earthlings (allthough as you have noticed some ideas may drive me up the wall)

I've said this before: the fact that there is no here-after is exactly my motivation for being a good human being in this world. These 70 years (or less, or more) are my opportunity to contribute to this world. If there would have been an here-after, my earthy life would not make sense (just stating my view, a discussion about it would ... never end)


About Nimrod: I would have put it a little more mildly then he did, but I don't really disagree with him. Did you never wonder how offensive christianity can be and often is to non-christians ?
That's a question in earnest ...

According to this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religious_populations (and ok, wikipedia is not always the best source of accurate information) Christians do not represent the majority of human population. Somehow you will have to accept that there might be a chance that others may be right.
I belong to the third largest group. 1.2 billion, that's hard to dismiss. If we would all have been promiscuous ladyboy lovers with loose moral, life and society would prolly look a little different

Quote:

It then all kind of boils down to whoever dies with the most toys wins!

There is a quote, I believe it is from Bukowski, the writer, a quick google-search didn't turn it up, bu t it goes something like this:

If you die poor, you did something wrong

I actually think, if you die rich, you did something wrong.

Evert

Last edited by jorit2 on 10-Mar-2018 at 10:29 PM.

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@jorit2

Quote:

I've said this before: the fact that there is no here-after is exactly my motivation for being a good human being in this world.

The sheer concept of good or bad in the 'evolved' and secular post-truth world if viewed logically is but an illusion. Your world view should lead to the conclusion that It is simply a dog eat dog world. The fact you don't think that points to your eternal soul, the innate value you see in human life and ultimately because we are created beings made in the image of God in order to live for eternity not just for a brief 70 years!

In our 'modern' culture it's simply becoming about living life while we are alive. People are not thankful for institutions like the UK's National Health Service the are just expectant and demand these services as rights. Men think nothing of having children with multiple partners on council estates across the nation and if anything in a godless world that would make sense. Spread your genes far and wide and gain a sort of immortality through your offspring! This selfishness and immorality will worsen and our culture will degenerate unless we turn back to God and embrace the cornerstone of morality and meaning that the Bible has been for the UK and most of Western Europe.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

Quote:

The sheer concept of good or bad in the 'evolved' and secular post-truth world if viewed logically is but an illusion. Your world view should lead to the conclusion that It is simply a dog eat dog world. The fact you don't think that points to your eternal soul, the innate value you see in human life and ultimately because we are created beings made in the image of God in order to live for eternity not just for a brief 70 years!. In our 'modern' culture it's simply becoming about living life while we are alive. People are not thankful for institutions like the UK's National Health Service the are just expectant and demand these services as rights. Men think nothing of having children with multiple partners on council estates across the nation and if anything in a godless world that would make sense. Spread your genes far and wide and gain a sort of immortality through your offspring! This selfishness and immorality will worsen and our culture will degenerate unless we turn back to God and embrace the cornerstone of morality and meaning that the Bible has been for the UK and most of Western Europe.

You really need to give up your illusion of moral and intellectual superiority.

Sadly you leave me no choice but to re-iterate what I said earlier.

You sir, you must be the most retarded christian I have ever dealt with.

Seriously mind-numbing ...

Evert

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@BigD
A/ I did not use the "F" word, the "C" word, or lots of other words that would attract the attention of the moderators. Referring to a lying toerag as a piece of filth is not indecent, although it probably would have been if I had referred to him by an Anglo-Saxon four-letter-word. (I spy with my little eye, something beginning with "S" Incidentally I do not intend to rule as a monarch, or were you attempting to use an equestrian term advising me to rein it in.

B/ There is plenty of contemporary evidence of the existence of Billy Graham, there is no contemporary evidence for the existence of either "Jesus" or even Nazareth in the first century AD. Billy Graham went in a wooden box which then made this world a FAR better place, and I have no reason to give thanks that such a vile, self-serving oxygen thief ever contaminated this planet.
Billy Graham and yourself may have hopes of magically being alive after you have died but that doesn't mean it will happen. The fact that you and he have deluded yourselves is no excuse for me to stop thinking clearly and acknowledging the fact that the world will continue without me, just as it did for billions of years before I was born.

Meanwhile take your pathetic propaganda and shove it where the sun doesn't shine.

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@BigD
Pinning the truth of your deity on to the invariability of morality is a spectacularly bad bet. You are claiming that the fact that morality does not vary over time is proof of the existence of your chosen deity despite the fact that anybody reading the bible can clearly see that morality has (like all things) evolved over the centuries. The bible gives instructions on keeping slaves, how to sell your daughter as a sex-slave, and how to trick a person who can legally terminate their status as a slave into becoming your permanent property with no rights whatsoever. All of that is now considered by your own religion to be highly immoral, as is polygamy, marriage by rape, and killing your children for being stroppy. What we no longer consider to be abominable includes eating pork and shellfish, wearing mixed fabric clothing, crop rotation or mixed crops, harvesting the grown crops in the field corners and trimming the corners of your hair and/or beard (What has your god got against tidying up corners?) The very fact that morality HAS evolved over time proves conclusively that the idea of absolute moral standards is a false one, and that the morality described by religions are formed by societal ethics, not vice versa.

Do you seriously want us to turn back to the time when religion had supreme power in Europe? A time when people died in wars of religion with Catholic massacring Protestant, Protestant slaughtering Catholic, and both having regular genocides of the Jews.
The National Health Service uses scientifically determined and proven treatments, not prayers, incantations, and exorcisms to cure illnesses, and it is a losing battle. Even if disease organisms weren't evolving to protect themselves from current antibiotics it remains an unavoidable fact that "Omnes Morimur" (Everybody dies)

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@BigD

Quote:

Billy Graham's fruit is a lot more positive and clear to see; whole swathes of populations turning to God and personal evangelism to influential world leaders including it seems having a part to play in the salvation of President George W. Bush.

It's kind of ironic that Bush's actions pretty much put an end to Christianity in Iraq.