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      /  10 years later, the question "What is an Amiga?", answered.
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resle 
10 years later, the question "What is an Amiga?", answered.
Posted on 9-Apr-2018 0:45:56
#1 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 28-Nov-2005
Posts: 500
From: shanghai

This is a question I asked myself for the first time 10 years ago, following a discussion started by Carl Sassenrath.

For my 500th and final post (this time for real ) I want to rehash and update my original points and leave this discussion behind, as I think it matters more than ever with the incredible mess that has piled up around the definition of "Amiga" in the 10 years that went by.



First of all, let's have a look at how people are defining the two dominating systems out there.


"PC"
A PC was a PC when it ran DOS. It's still a PC when it runs Windows, and keeps being (or being seen as) a PC if you run Linux on it. Or, apparently, any other operating system - as long as the hardware is your typical X86 CPU and motherboard, PCI expansion slots, and so forth.

A PC appears to be defined by the hw architecture: x86, with front side bus, etc.



Mac
Macs are somewhat the opposite case of PC: a Mac was a Mac when it used a Motorola CPU. It was still called a Mac when Apple switched to PowerPC. It has been a Mac for the past 15 years after they switched again to Intel, and it will still be a Mac if and when Apple will switch CPU once more as recently leaked.

A Mac is defined by the OS: MacOS, no matter what version, no matter what hardware underneath it.



So, by extension - what is an Amiga, or what should it be?



Is it like a PC?
Then it would be a machine powered by any OS, as long as it runs on the original architecture.

But let's be frank: if an A4000 could run, say, Windows 95, - would there be any Amiga feeling to it? If it can run ANY of the original Amiga software, can it even bear that name at all?


Is it like a Mac?
Then it would be anything that runs AmigaOS (the original, true AmigaOS), any version of it, on any hardware, any architecture.

This, already sounds better.

However, remember how Apple evolved MacOS in a way where at every architecture turnaround, the OS was almost entirely rewritten to get rid of legacy but still be able to run old Mac software through emulation?

Yet, every version of MacOS was still very clearly MacOS. How? Just by retaining the MacOS feeling through some UI metaphors such as the behavior of menus, the naming of essential parts of the OS, the locations of system directories, look and feel of some key elements. Meanwhile, hidden to the users, the whole "under the hood" part of the OS was rebuilt from the ground up.




Ok, so... again... what's an Amiga?



It used to be Classic Hardware running AmigaOS. Perfect vertical integration, hardware and software written in concert, as it can be done only when there's a billion-dollars corporation with a clear business plan behind a computing effort. This is the past.


It seems now to be PPC machines of various make, running the PPC port of AmigaOS. Alas, the hardware is slow and expensive, and the OS is outdated and buggy. Outcome of the remains of the bankruptcy of a once successful company ended up in bits and pieces in amateurish hands which never really knew what to do with them. This is the present.


The future: If it's the OS that is meant to define Amiga - then there are not one but three operating systems which kept alive the metaphors of AmigaOS: the kickstart, the look and feel, the ramdisk, datatypes, system folders structure, emulation layer for the classic software, and so forth:

AmigaOS, which is at a dead end. In Hyperion's inept hands it has been essentially abandoned. From what has leaked, the source code is also probably an unantainable mess.

MorphOS, which is backed by a well organized team, robustly built, slowly but steadily updated. But it's also stuck with PPC, and PPC is another dead end in a X86/ARM world.

Aros. Aros runs on X86, PPC, 68K, and can be hosted on Arm. It features a replacement kickstart and maintains api compatibility with classic software. Unfortunately the open source community behind it has been dwindling, and its "distributions" can be somewhat confusing.




So, in the end, with all of the above said... What's an Amiga? What will an Amiga be (if ever)?
I believe in the end there are three possible answers.




The answer for nostalgic ones is that Amigas will always be just the classic machines running AmigaOS 1.3, 2.1, 3.1. There's an enormous community of C64 lovers out there, and they don't keep daydreaming of a c64 resurgence or reinvention. They just enjoy the original, develop for the original, and - best case scenario - they embark on projects to replace dying hardware with FPGA implementations that behave as close as possible to the original, or replica cases, and so on.


The answer for dreamers is that Amiga will NOT be anything. Ever. Frankly this is the people that make me go "facepalm" as they say, always blabbering about quantum computing or some other oddball proposition based on fairy dust - as they just want to slap the "Amiga" name on something new and revolutionary for the sake of it. Because "Amiga" for them became synonym with Wonder, that sense of wonder they had when they first used one, and which they want to experience again.


The answer for realists is that - if one can let go emotions and nostalgia - benchmarks and IP litigations, dreams and camps - then the only viable way ahead is Aros on X86 or Arm, with better and better integration of UAE for that huge library of games that made the Amiga great, improvements to the UI, and perhaps one day a nicely built machine designed with that OS in mind (Maybe a redesigned "keyboard computer" like the good old A500, to please the nostalgic ones? :) )




Has the question been answered? For me, sort of. It took 10 years and... well all the ludicrous stuff that happened, the dead ends, the endless parade of snake oil salesmen, the cheap drama that only this community seems to be able to attract. And perhaps this is not something to despise, but to embrace as yet another defining characteristic of the Amiga, integral part to its unique vibe.

So perhaps... see you and Amiga in 2028

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Wol 
Re: 10 years later, the question "What is an Amiga?", answered.
Posted on 9-Apr-2018 15:06:57
#2 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 1003
From: UK.......Sol 3.

@resle

Nice post, pretty well sums it up.


Wol..

_________________
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AdvancedFollower 
Re: 10 years later, the question "What is an Amiga?", answered.
Posted on 9-Apr-2018 17:12:17
#3 ]
Member
Joined: 29-Aug-2017
Posts: 79
From: Sweden

Amiga certainly means different things to different people. I think those three categories pretty much sums it up, though there's no reason there can't be some overlap.

I certainly believe in preserving the original "Classic" hardware, though for me personally that's too much money and work these days (re-capping, retrobrighting, exorbitant prices etc.), which is why I'm sticking with emulation and FPGA.

On the other hand, the A1222 still interests me greatly, if only for the sheer novelty of the OS and hardware. It's not just about "slapping the Amiga name" on something. PPC was, after all, once viewed as the future of Amiga. Bridging the gap, AmigaOS 4 does run on classic Amigas with PPC accelerators. I once dreamed of owning a PPC accelerator for my A1200 back in the day, but that never happened as I moved on to the Pentium. But I never thought in 1997 - "If I buy a Blizzard PPC for my A1200, it will no longer be an Amiga!".

AROS is a weird one. On the surface, it seems like the most logical option for getting an Amiga-like OS running on affordable, reasonably modern hardware. I think it's a bit too "Linux-like" for many users, and the lack of Amiga branding pushes some users away. Also, if you run it hosted on Linux, you begin realizing that the Linux applications are usually better and you're just making things needlessly convoluted by forcing yourself to use the AROS side. Why not just run Linux and FS-UAE? Or for that matter, Windows. A lot of the things that set AmigaOS apart in 1994 is taken for granted on Windows today. It's certainly more stable than WB 3.1. Thanks to ludicrous amounts of RAM and insanely fast SSD's, it's just as snappy as an Amiga+HDD.

Last edited by AdvancedFollower on 09-Apr-2018 at 05:16 PM.
Last edited by AdvancedFollower on 09-Apr-2018 at 05:15 PM.

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bison 
Re: 10 years later, the question "What is an Amiga?", answered.
Posted on 9-Apr-2018 17:40:26
#4 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 2112
From: N-Space

@resle

Quote:
For my 500th and final post (this time for real )

Well, we'll see. You needn't stop at the A500; you can always upgrade to an A1200.

_________________
"Unix is supposed to fix that." -- Jay Miner

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Hypex 
Re: 10 years later, the question "What is an Amiga?", answered.
Posted on 9-Apr-2018 17:42:23
#5 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia

@resle

It also comes down to how you ask it.

What is "an" Amiga? The machine that started it all, the Amiga computer, through all the various iterations produced from 1985 until its demise in the last Amiga model at around 1995.

What "is" Amiga? That and everything else ever since.

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redfox 
Re: 10 years later, the question "What is an Amiga?", answered.
Posted on 10-Apr-2018 3:28:06
#6 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 7-Mar-2003
Posts: 2064
From: Canada

@resle

What is an Amiga?

For me, it is more about the feeling I got when I used my original Classic Amiga computer (in my case an A2000HD). It came with AmigaOS 1.3 and I later upgraded to AmigaOS 3.1.

I got that same feeling the first time I booted up the QNX Demo on floppy disk. After I installed QNX 6.x on my HP computer, I used QNX for all my web browsing.

I got that same feeling the first time I booted up AmigaOS4 on my MicroA1. It was a treat to see a familiar Amiga Workbench with lots of colour and power.

I got that same feeling when I booted up the AspireOS v 1.98 "Live CD" (one of the distributiions of AROS) on my HP laptop.

Unfortunately, I haven't had a chance to try MorphOS yet. I need to find compatible hardware.

In the mobile arena, I liked using my Samsung GALAXY Tab4 and I was not using any computers for awhile. Then some chip died and no more Wi-Fi or Bluetooth. I replaced the Tab4 with a Samsung Galaxy Tab A. Newer device, but just not the same. They got rid of my favourite Samsung programs and replaced them with Google stuff.

---
redfox

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serk118 
Re: 10 years later, the question "What is an Amiga?", answered.
Posted on 10-Apr-2018 10:11:54
#7 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 25-Nov-2004
Posts: 685
From: London(uk)

Quote:

@AdvancedFollower
AROS is a weird one. On the surface, it seems like the most logical option for getting an Amiga-like OS running on affordable, reasonably modern hardware. I think it's a bit too "Linux-like" for many users, and the lack of Amiga branding pushes some users away. Also, if you run it hosted on Linux, you begin realizing that the Linux applications are usually better and you're just making things needlessly convoluted by forcing yourself to use the AROS side. Why not just run Linux and FS-UAE? Or for that matter, Windows. A lot of the things that set AmigaOS apart in 1994 is taken for granted on Windows today. It's certainly more stable than WB 3.1. Thanks to ludicrous amounts of RAM and insanely fast SSD's, it's just as snappy as an Amiga+HDD.


Than it makes me think why not just put efford and coding skills to aros and grow aros and use aros because we made it and it's ours.

Aros is the only operating system driving by amigans with talented coders, a community driving amiga like os and runs on multiple hardware.

Amiga inc/Hyperion Entertainment stop updating than you have nothing but if all amigans supported and see why aros exist today than it would be where Linux today but amigans are very stubborn and don't want to see or help aros to born as ng amiga driving by community and regrow.

No need reason or wonder why amigans are leaving the community because there is no holpe and aging.

Sorry I thought I say few words about aros..

Last edited by serk118 on 10-Apr-2018 at 10:23 AM.
Last edited by serk118 on 10-Apr-2018 at 10:13 AM.

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fishy_fis 
Re: 10 years later, the question "What is an Amiga?", answered.
Posted on 10-Apr-2018 11:06:02
#8 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 2156
From: Australia

@AdvancedFollower

Quote:
AROS is a weird one. On the surface, it seems like the most logical option for getting an Amiga-like OS running on affordable, reasonably modern hardware. I think it's a bit too "Linux-like" for many users


Linux like? How so? It's no more linux than Amiga OS3.x, MorphOS or Amiga OS4.x,... in fact OS4, despite being based on os3.x sources is the most "linux like" of the lot (shared objects).

It can run ontop of linux, android, mac os, bsd and Windows without emulation, but that doesnt make AROS itself *nix like any more than AmigaOS is *nix like when running under emulation.

I can't agree with the "may as well just run linux + fs-uae",.... that idea suggests away anyone using an amiga os derived system at all,.... after all why run weaker software on a more expensive, weaker hardware? Same arguement. And the answer would be, "because I dont like linux and I do like aros/amiga os". Not that difficult a concept really once you remove the confusion.

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paolone 
Re: 10 years later, the question "What is an Amiga?", answered.
Posted on 10-Apr-2018 11:39:49
#9 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Sep-2007
Posts: 1143
From: Unknown

@serk118

Funningly enough, the people who are leaving are the same who once adversed AROS as much as they could.

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simplex 
Re: 10 years later, the question "What is an Amiga?", answered.
Posted on 10-Apr-2018 12:01:08
#10 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Oct-2003
Posts: 896
From: Hattiesburg, MS

@paolone

Quote:
Funningly enough, the people who are leaving are the same who once adversed AROS as much as they could.

"adversed" -> "opposed" I think

_________________
I've decided to follow an awful lot of people I respect and leave AmigaWorld. If for some reason you want to talk to me, it shouldn't take much effort to find me.

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amigang 
Re: 10 years later, the question "What is an Amiga?", answered.
Posted on 10-Apr-2018 17:20:09
#11 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2005
Posts: 2018
From: Cheshire, England

The Amiga can be anything you want it to be, people remember it as a games machine, some remember as a multimedia marvel, others a great creative platform with a lot charter.

The Amiga can be what ever you want it to be and thanks to the cool community there are options all over the place, from a open source OS, to FPGA emulation, a few too many follow the branding, I'm kinda guilty of that to, even though I know they offer very similar features and ability I kinda wanted the AmigaOS & AmigaONE slightly more than MorphOS on a Mac PPC.

But people who blindly follow the branding no matter what are idiots, I'm so glad Aros exists it means no matter what happens there will be a Amiga like system out there to use if os4/ppc dies. The only real big problem is because there so much choice in the Amiga market development and developers are split between 4+ camps (classic, aros, os4, Morphos, fpga, etc) out of a already small community this splits the resource and slows development. Plus naturally your going to create the "our vision is better than yours" in fighting we have gotten over the years, I kinda glad that seems to be slowly dying out ( a bit anyway).

What I want the Amiga to be is as close to it original roots as it can be but do the modern day stuff my PC can do like browse the internet, work on documents, do photo editing, video editing etc, the closet thing to my dream I got to use so far is OS4.1FE, however Aros when it runs on well supported hardware, with linux simulate running in the background with amiga skinned apps I'm starting to think this could offer a more realistic vision of my future Amiga enjoyment, specially if development is improved in some areas, I'm even thinking of A1200 remake case with a mini PC or Pi inside and making that my main amiga might be the way to go in the future, who knows but Im here for the ride!

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wawa 
Re: 10 years later, the question "What is an Amiga?", answered.
Posted on 10-Apr-2018 17:53:37
#12 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@paolone

Quote:
Funningly enough, the people who are leaving are the same who once adversed AROS as much as they could.


not entirely true. aros talent base has eroded just as much itself. for various reasons i guess.

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wawa 
Re: 10 years later, the question "What is an Amiga?", answered.
Posted on 10-Apr-2018 18:18:37
#13 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@AdvancedFollower

Quote:
I certainly believe in preserving the original "Classic" hardware, though for me personally that's too much money and work these days


Quote:
On the other hand, the A1222 still interests me greatly


i have never spent as much you will need for that tabor board (if it ever be sold) for an amiga item. save the ppc card, which i only bought because i had to buy the computer anyway and i was under impression, ppc being an extra worth reconsidering. turned out it wasnt.

Quote:
AROS is a weird one.... I think it's a bit too "Linux-like" for many users,


wonder, whats linux like about aros? posix library? gallium? ready to use cross compiler environment? all that stuff on other amiga-like platforms want to have list?

..and since aros has been brought up:

Quote:
Bridging the gap, AmigaOS 4 does run on classic Amigas with PPC accelerators.


bridging the gap, aros runs on genuine amigas, no need for ppc. period.

Quote:
Also, if you run it hosted on Linux, you begin realizing that the Linux applications are usually better


guess what? i dont need to be told that nor try to fence myself from such experience using hardware badly supported by linux, even if better supported than os4 apparently does. looks like it doesnt hold os4 users from telling everybody it os4 dedicated platform. so logically its just a prejudice that x64 is not aros dedicated.

let me tell you im using aros vms in order to build stuff for aros on a daily basis. different distros. i cant really tell if i like it or not. but its definitely a tool for the job. i would replace it with aros any time, as soon as self compiling and smp support is ripe enough. at the moment it isnt.

Quote:
Why not just run Linux and FS-UAE? Or for that matter, Windows.


really, why not. along with your amigas, if you got any, that is.

Quote:
A lot of the things that set AmigaOS apart in 1994 is taken for granted on Windows today. It's certainly more stable than WB 3.1. Thanks to ludicrous amounts of RAM and insanely fast SSD's, it's just as snappy as an Amiga+HDD.


certainly.

Last edited by wawa on 10-Apr-2018 at 06:20 PM.

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arthoropod 
Re: 10 years later, the question "What is an Amiga?", answered.
Posted on 10-Apr-2018 19:39:30
#14 ]
Member
Joined: 14-Feb-2018
Posts: 80
From: Gotham

@resle

Whatever it is, it isn't MorphOS.
That boat sailed awhile ago, and many of you supported Amiga Inc. and HYPErion.

Personally, I always liked Bill Buck, and at least he was willing to stick up for his opinion that the Artica S Northbridge was flawed.

BUT, the current supporters of AmigaOS 4 have some people on their side I trust like Trevor Dickinson and Han de Ruiter, so things are looking up for them.

And, to point out the difference, Amiga computers (except for those equipped with third party PPC accelerators) run AmigaOS 3.9 and below, while AmigaOne computers run AmigaOS 4.0 and above.

Blame the confusion on McBill and the purists.

I could see a new migration to ARM, Power9 (or above), or (if necessary) X64.

Power9 would be backward compatible (and any of those would run UAE emulation better than current PPCs).

Then maybe we could actually obtain a license for the Amiga name without the One and move on from this argument.

@wawa

Quote:
wonder, whats linux like about aros? posix library? gallium?


Yep, and no, not everyone wants a Posix library.
That approach has been dismissed by the MorphOS team as non-native approach that is too cumbersome.

What is a more "Amiga-like" approach. Well, I'm not 100% sure, but its going to involve efficient, compact code that loads quickly and doesn't rely on too many libraries from other OS'.

@wawa

Quote:
bridging the gap, aros runs on genuine amigas, no need for ppc. period.


Um, yeah, bridging the gap between my favorite cpu and the cpu supported by the enemy.

I LIKE PPCs, be they G3, G4, G5, later AMCC, and Freescale products or Power revisions.

Last edited by arthoropod on 10-Apr-2018 at 08:25 PM.
Last edited by arthoropod on 10-Apr-2018 at 08:10 PM.
Last edited by arthoropod on 10-Apr-2018 at 07:47 PM.
Last edited by arthoropod on 10-Apr-2018 at 07:46 PM.
Last edited by arthoropod on 10-Apr-2018 at 07:45 PM.
Last edited by arthoropod on 10-Apr-2018 at 07:42 PM.

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Signal 
Re: 10 years later, the question "What is an Amiga?", answered.
Posted on 10-Apr-2018 19:58:49
#15 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2013
Posts: 664
From: USA

@arthoropod

Quote:



Power9 would be backward compatible (and any of those would run UAE emulation better than current PPCs).

It has been mentioned on twitter that Raptor is working on a single CPU ATX POWER9 motherboard that may be ready for sale later this year. Cool.

_________________
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arthoropod 
Re: 10 years later, the question "What is an Amiga?", answered.
Posted on 10-Apr-2018 20:14:53
#16 ]
Member
Joined: 14-Feb-2018
Posts: 80
From: Gotham

@Signal

Missed that, works for me, a low-end single four core Power9 supports 16 concurrent threads.

And PCs and Macs aren't based on Power9.

We jumped from Commodore's exploration of HP's PA RISC to PPC, so a move to Power9 would be a natural evolution that would preserve our unique nature.

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wawa 
Re: 10 years later, the question "What is an Amiga?", answered.
Posted on 10-Apr-2018 22:44:33
#17 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@arthoropod

Quote:
Yep, and no, not everyone wants a Posix library.


call it ixemul if you will, no matter. you dont need to use it, if you are smarter than that.

Quote:
What is a more "Amiga-like" approach. Well, I'm not 100% sure, but its going to involve efficient, compact code that loads quickly and doesn't rely on too many libraries from other OS'.


simply refrain to whats coded in 68k asm and your are on a safe side, just dont tell me you want a modern browser, office suite or even pdf viewer. cause all that will rely on foreign os libraries usually linked statically into your binary, no matter which of the "ng-amiga" oses.

Quote:
Um, yeah, bridging the gap between my favorite cpu and the cpu supported by the enemy.


seriously? so who is your enemy? amd, microsoft, ibm, apple?

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fishy_fis 
Re: 10 years later, the question "What is an Amiga?", answered.
Posted on 10-Apr-2018 23:01:44
#18 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 2156
From: Australia

@wawa

Some people are just too stupid to understand they're being stupid.

We have 12 year olds here now?

"enemy",..... haha, what an insecure and/or immature clown

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paolone 
Re: 10 years later, the question "What is an Amiga?", answered.
Posted on 11-Apr-2018 10:51:55
#19 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Sep-2007
Posts: 1143
From: Unknown

@simplex

Quote:
Funningly enough, the people who are leaving are the same who once adversed AROS as much as they could.

"adversed" -> "opposed" I think[/quote]

yes, sorry

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paolone 
Re: 10 years later, the question "What is an Amiga?", answered.
Posted on 11-Apr-2018 10:55:16
#20 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Sep-2007
Posts: 1143
From: Unknown

@AdvancedFollower

Quote:
AROS is a weird one. On the surface, it seems like the most logical option for getting an Amiga-like OS running on affordable, reasonably modern hardware. I think it's a bit too "Linux-like" for many users


Ok, listen. I've been on the AROS side for almost 20 years now, and for the whole time I had to read this "linuxish" shit without understanding what the damn hell AROS and Linux have to share. So please enlighten me once forever: what do AROS and LINUX have in common, exactly, that AmigaOS 4 and MorphOS haven't?

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