Hi All

A little debate why do modern OS need to be shut down? Amiga OS can just be turned off as long as there is no disk access. So my main question is why does it take windows and macos time to shut down all it should need to do is check there is no disk access then power off. As for a restart that is no quicker than a shut down and reboot.

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@g01df1sh

I suppose temporary/cached files must be written down.

@zipper

Temporary files that's another one of windows errors Temp means temporary so why does windows not delete the temp files in the windows/temp folder ???

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@g01df1sh

I will sure appreciate a "safe shutdown" MUI lamp indicating on screen menus there is at the moment no any disk activity pending so the user can directly power off safely his/her machine.

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@g01df1sh

I think it's great you can simply press the power button at a sensible moment to switch off an Amiga. I'm sure I made more than one deadline at Uni because I could just rush out the door rather than wait for a Windows machine to install updates etc. These days laptops etc can enter a sleep mode but back then you really didn't want to leave a computer on all day while you were out at college.

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-Many modern computers don't even have HDD access lights, so "waiting for disk access to stop" isn't so easy

-Due to write caching and delayed writes, data can be lost if you cut power even when the activity light isn't lit. Windows has its own disk cache, and SSD's/HDD's usually have some DRAM cache

-Modern systems run a lot more background tasks so it's harder to manually keep track of what processes might currently be writing to the disk (indexing service, log files etc.).

-SSD's can even be physically damaged if power is cut while it's erasing cells (though this wouldn't be noticeable to end users as there are plenty of spare cells).

-Amiga systems can also suffer data corruption if you get unlucky and mis-time the shutdown. Shutting down elegantly is just good practice.

@g01df1sh

Quote:

Temporary files that's another one of windows errors Temp means temporary so why does windows not delete the temp files in the windows/temp folder ???

Well they have to be deleted sometime, some kinds can be deleted when the appliaction has finished with them, some need to persist so another app can use them. The second kind might get removed either at shutdown or startup (or both) at shutdown is better in someways as it means a faster startup.

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@AdvancedFollower

The write behind caching is by far the biggest reason. That combined with the fact that applications an services expect there to be shutdown sequance and so do some house keeping (writing setting changes to disk perhaps) at that point.

The problems occur when apps refuse to shutdown, so delying teh shutdown sequance, I don't use windows for along long time so I'm really not sure how bad a problem that is these days, linux gets more assertive and "kills" any such apps.

The otherone in windows case is the tendency to apply updates on shutdown, which can take ages.

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@g01df1sh

Perhaps it is shut down so the modern filesystem doesn't get invalidated.

Amiga OS is a simpler design. It also lacks dependence on virtual memory. On a modern system it is built so that apps will use that virtual memory along with the system itself. As well as holding files open. And modern systems like to log things like system activity so there is a lot of writing going on. And all this going on under a logged in user. I suppose it is a bit convulted and a logistical nightmare. So at the end of the day all apps need to be closed down as well as files and other ties. Log out. Making sure it is a clean exit.

Similar to how on Amiga OS it needs a valid filesystem before can be cleanly shut down. Or you end up with a dirty write protected one. Well that's my guess anyway at what it has to do. In a nut shell, it's complicated.

That said, I don't mind the idea of a shut down procedure for OS4 and the like. I think it's a good idea to ensure a clean break. On a modern system a shut down can be performed by simply pressing the power button and letting it do the rest of the work. More complicated but just as "lazy" as pressing the power switch and forgetting about it. So I would welcome a shutdown on AmigaOS that cleanly closed all my apps and made sure all my files were saved so "I" didn't have to do it.

Last edited by Hypex on 04-May-2018 at 05:26 PM.

@broadblues

Quote:

I don't use windows for along long time so I'm really not sure how bad a problem that is these days, linux gets more assertive and "kills" any such apps.

Except when it's FireFox on Linux Mint as it will let that lock up the machine and only in rare circumstances will actually kill it.

@thread

ElementaryOS (based on Ubuntu) powers off a computer in a second. I don't think recent OS versions keeps any write buffers in memory for that long anymore. Doing so was a 1990s thing when harddrives were slower.

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@Tomppeli

Yeah they do, but writing cache to disk is much faster now, and systemd speeds up both boot and shutdown by doing all in parallel. You can check yourself, if filesystem is mounted with sync (no write cache) option or not.

Last edited by kolla on 04-May-2018 at 06:33 PM.

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@g01df1sh

Quote:

g01df1sh wrote: A little debate why do modern OS need to be shut down?

1. The shutdown process closes all open files, without you could lose the data in not closed files.
2. Caches on the file system are written when you close the files, if you switch of without closing the files you will lose data.


Old OSes do often work without caches and often works with limited number of aplications writing to the file system.

Most modern OSes have variants that could be switched of without shut down, they could be configured to run from Read only media, using Ram Disks for temporary files

@g01df1sh

If you're thinking about Winblows, I suppose it keeps the registry in memory with all settings stored. If you kill power without shut down, you may loose some settings you made, window positions etc.

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@broadblues

Quote:

The problems occur when apps refuse to shutdown, so delying teh shutdown sequance, I don't use windows for along long time so I'm really not sure how bad a problem that is these days, linux gets more assertive and "kills" any such apps.

It's a lot better nowadays, but if an application refuses to shut down and you don't do anything within maybe 30s, it will still abort the shutdown in my experience. Otherwise, it's as simple as clicking "Yes" when it happens.

Linux is indeed more aggressive, which makes sense. If you're trying to remotely restart a server somewhere and the SSH service is already down for example, you don't want some silly message on the screen like "Are you sure you want to continue shutting down?".

@Deniil715

Or in the case of OSX, wiping browser logins and wireless passwords, because the battery died while it was sleeping.

Had they not designed it to delete important data before going into suspension that wouldn't happen but this is Apple for you.

Last edited by Hypex on 08-May-2018 at 03:45 PM.

Its not so much the shut down I have a problem with its the amount of time it takes to shut down some times. Should take take no more than 10-15 secs to shut down ?

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@Hypex

Quote:

Perhaps it is shut down so the modern filesystem doesn't get invalidated.

Exactly, and the time to shut down is influenced by how many processes are using the file system that have to be shut down correctly to avoid corruption.

@arthoropod

Quote:

arthoropod wrote: @Hypex Quote: Perhaps it is shut down so the modern filesystem doesn't get invalidated. Exactly, and the time to shut down is influenced by how many processes are using the file system that have to be shut down correctly to avoid corruption.

Nah, close all windows and programs and push the power button; it's the Atari / Amiga way. A Shutdown procedure is just ridiculous. I think we can all tell if Time Machine is running on the Mac or not than that we should be able to do the same on Macs. PeeCees just love to install updates just as you want to go home / go out after we click shut down!! This is unforgivable in the age of iOS and Android on phones that can easily and quickly be shutoff with a power button!

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@BigD

Quote:

PeeCees just love to install updates just as you want to go home / go out after we click shut down!!

Worse yet, I've had them shut down while I was working, or install updates when I boot and would prefer to get to work.

But the shut down procedure is still needed with those systems to prevent file system corruption.

And, you know, Amigoid file systems aren't all that and a box of rocks either.