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      /  Commodore not the only ones to have a bumpy ride
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g01df1sh 
Commodore not the only ones to have a bumpy ride
Posted on 13-Sep-2018 13:20:53
#1 ]
Super Member
Joined: 16-Apr-2009
Posts: 1777
From: UK

Hi

All

I watched this today. Sad that we now only have these left...

Sony
Microsoft
Nintendo


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GH7R2PEvzXo

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nikosidis 
Re: Commodore not the only ones to have a bumpy ride
Posted on 13-Sep-2018 14:45:09
#2 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Dec-2008
Posts: 994
From: Norway, Oslo

@g01df1sh

Thx for the link to the video. Interesting watch. SEGA is still a game developer though.
I always looked at SEGA as a game developer. In the old days arcade and now for all kind
of mashines. Sonic and Mario are even together in some games now :)
SEGA where never anything near Commodore in hardware sales though.

Last edited by nikosidis on 13-Sep-2018 at 02:46 PM.

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g01df1sh 
Re: Commodore not the only ones to have a bumpy ride
Posted on 13-Sep-2018 15:22:30
#3 ]
Super Member
Joined: 16-Apr-2009
Posts: 1777
From: UK

@nikosidis

I still think the Saturn was a super console. Kind of makes commodores statement of "To be this good will take Sega Ages" a joke when AAA never came out and CD32 was 1993 and Saturn was only a year later

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ASiegel 
Re: Commodore not the only ones to have a bumpy ride
Posted on 13-Sep-2018 15:49:40
#4 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Oct-2013
Posts: 212
From: Unknown

@nikosidis

Quote:
SEGA where never anything near Commodore in hardware sales though.

Please note that Sega sold ~75 million units of home and handheld game consoles.

For comparison, Commodore is said to have sold around 7 million Amiga branded computers. The Sega Saturn, which was widely perceived as an industry failure, outsold every Amiga ever made by a few million units.

Their best-selling system and supposedly the best-selling individual computer model to this day, the C64, was sold roughly 20 million times. The Sega Genesis / MegaDrive outsold the C64 by 10 million units...

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nikosidis 
Re: Commodore not the only ones to have a bumpy ride
Posted on 13-Sep-2018 16:00:38
#5 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Dec-2008
Posts: 994
From: Norway, Oslo

@ASiegel

Whow. I guess I should have used google before I wrote that ;)

I guess the market for SEGA consoles where first of all in Japan and USA.

In Europe Commodore must have sold more at least if you count the years both where active.

I'm also sure the first years of c-64, Commodore outsold whatever SEGA had back then, worldwide.

Last edited by nikosidis on 13-Sep-2018 at 04:02 PM.
Last edited by nikosidis on 13-Sep-2018 at 04:01 PM.

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ASiegel 
Re: Commodore not the only ones to have a bumpy ride
Posted on 13-Sep-2018 16:32:27
#6 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Oct-2013
Posts: 212
From: Unknown

@nikosidis

Quote:
I guess the market for SEGA consoles where first of all in Japan and USA.

In Europe Commodore must have sold more at least if you count the years both where active.

In Western Europe alone, Sega managed to sell 8 million Sega Genesis / MegaDrive and 7 million Master System consoles. Both game consoles were released in this region in 1990 and 1987 respectively, which was after the C64's heydays.

Once again, Commodore sold around 7 million Amigas worldwide.

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nikosidis 
Re: Commodore not the only ones to have a bumpy ride
Posted on 13-Sep-2018 16:44:48
#7 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Dec-2008
Posts: 994
From: Norway, Oslo

@ASiegel

That is why I said "back then"
When C-64 where sold it outsold whatever SEGA had at that time period.

Regarding the whole timeframe of Commodore like you say SEGA outsold
them even in Europe. That is suprising but I live in Scandinavia and there it
was not like that. western europe is strange :P

Last edited by nikosidis on 13-Sep-2018 at 04:45 PM.

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pavlor 
Re: Commodore not the only ones to have a bumpy ride
Posted on 13-Sep-2018 16:45:42
#8 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@nikosidis

When the first great price war ended (cca 1984: Tramiel vs rest of the small micros), Commodore sold yearly more computers than any other computer company in the world (even more than IBM!). However, Commodore was then dominant in the cheap home market, business market was domain of IBM (and in much lesser numbers also Apple). Selling cheap computers means small margins, so IBM and Apple had much higher sales. Commodore tried to enter more profitable business market first with the ill-fated CBM-II and then later with Amiga, but market did choose IBM.

Note even in 1992, Commodore was still among the biggest computer companies by unit shipments (4th place behind IBM, Apple and Compaq). Although Apple sold only 2x as much computers as Commodore in 1992, it had 7x higher sales.

There were two main structural problems that doomed Commodore:
1) Lack of share of the more profitable business market (as mentioned above).
2) Not enough money in research and development. After Tramiel was forced out of Commodore, the company gave rarely above 3 % of sales for R/D (insanely low number for a technology company - eg. it was cca 8 % for IBM and Apple, or even more for other companies).

Add several bad decisions and the company could not survive competition from cheap 386/VGA PCs.

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nikosidis 
Re: Commodore not the only ones to have a bumpy ride
Posted on 13-Sep-2018 16:49:56
#9 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Dec-2008
Posts: 994
From: Norway, Oslo

@pavlor

Thanks for the history.
What I remember was that Amiga 500 was very expensive when first came out, but like you say they tried to make more profit on the Amiga brand. I don't think C-64 would ever succeed like it did in the home market if more expensive.

If I'm not totaly wrong even Apple almost went down the hill. I don't remember when it was worst but maybe around 1994?

Last edited by nikosidis on 13-Sep-2018 at 04:54 PM.
Last edited by nikosidis on 13-Sep-2018 at 04:50 PM.
Last edited by nikosidis on 13-Sep-2018 at 04:50 PM.

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pavlor 
Re: Commodore not the only ones to have a bumpy ride
Posted on 13-Sep-2018 16:54:43
#10 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@nikosidis

A500 was not that expensive... in comparison to USD2000-3000 "bussines class PCs" of that time (1987).

It was positioned at higher-end of the low-cost home computer market.

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pavlor 
Re: Commodore not the only ones to have a bumpy ride
Posted on 13-Sep-2018 17:06:42
#11 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@nikosidis

Quote:
If I'm not totaly wrong even Apple almost went down the hill. I don't remember when it was worst but maybe around 1994?


In the early 1990s, Apple realized it needs far greater market share to compete with the IBM compatible world (cca 10 % at best of yearly sold PCs was not that impressive...). First lower cost Macs were released (Mac LC, Classic), followed by confusing multitude of models for every segment of the market. In 1995, Apple officially supported clone makers in hope they will serve the low-end market... instead clones cannibalized high margin high-end market. In the early to mid 1990s, Apple started several costly projects (eg. new OS), only some reached release (PowerPC transition). By 1996, all these decision left the company in vulnerable financial position (but far form the state of Commodore in 1993).

When Steve Jobs returned in charge of the company, he did only sensible decision: one computer model for every main market segment (Power Mac G3, PowerBook, iMac and iBook). With good design and clever marketing, the company returned to profitability.

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ASiegel 
Re: Commodore not the only ones to have a bumpy ride
Posted on 13-Sep-2018 17:19:38
#12 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Oct-2013
Posts: 212
From: Unknown

@nikosidis

Quote:
That is why I said "back then" When C-64 where sold it outsold whatever SEGA had at that time period.

Please note that Sega did not officially sell any game consoles in Europe before 1987, which was many years after the C64 was first introduced.

You yourself made the reference to a time period when Commodore and Sega were both active in Europe. Accordingly, I specifically listed the relevant Sega consoles, namely the Sega Master System and Sega Genesis / Mega Drive...

Quote:
That is suprising but I live in Scandinavia and there it was not like that. western europe is strange :P

In this context,"Western Europe" is a geopolitical Cold War era term that actually does include countries such as Norway.

If you have any sources that support your thesis, please share them. Anecdotal experiences can be quite misleading.


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bison 
Re: Commodore not the only ones to have a bumpy ride
Posted on 13-Sep-2018 17:30:43
#13 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 2112
From: N-Space

@pavlor

Quote:
A500 was not that expensive...

My recollection is that it cost about $1300 USD with RAM expansion and a monitor, which was quite a bit less than the A1000.

An Atari ST with a color monitor was about $1000 at the time, and an 8088-based system with a monochrome monitor was about $900, so the price seemed quite reasonable considering the much greater capabilities of the Amiga.

Last edited by bison on 13-Sep-2018 at 05:32 PM.

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hth313 
Re: Commodore not the only ones to have a bumpy ride
Posted on 13-Sep-2018 17:58:54
#14 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 29-May-2018
Posts: 159
From: Delta, Canada

@nikosidis

The Amiga 500 was not expensive.

Where I lived, it costed less than the Commodore 64 at the point they entered the market.
It was also cheaper than the Commodore 128D released about a year (?) before.

I bought all three of them, and in terms of money, the Amiga 500 was the cheapest.

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nikosidis 
Re: Commodore not the only ones to have a bumpy ride
Posted on 13-Sep-2018 18:57:40
#15 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Dec-2008
Posts: 994
From: Norway, Oslo

@ASiegel

Commodore where huge in Oslo (capital where I come from) and Norway in general. Sure we had SEGA consoles but they got popular around 1990. That was around the end of Commodore area. Around 1982 c-64 where everywhere and after that Amiga 500. If I remember correct A500 cost in Norway around 3000 NOK when it came out. That is something like 300 Euro at the time. That kind of money was not for everyone. The price went down quite fast though.
I assumed that SEGA as in the video where also for sale in europe at the beginning of the 80's but as you pointed out it was probably not.

I would also say that sales does not nessessary indicate how many people used it or how popular it was. It is a secound hand market for computers and I'm sure the Commodore mashines went much more around and had a much longer lifespan than a console mashine specialy at that time.

Norway is in nothern europe so this is confusing.

Strange, but as you pointed out something with the cold war. I always heard about western world but western europe I must admit got me confused.

Something to read about it here.

https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-list-of-western-countries-in-the-world

From what I can understand western europe includes all contries except for the countries in east europe.

Last edited by nikosidis on 14-Sep-2018 at 08:08 AM.
Last edited by nikosidis on 13-Sep-2018 at 07:49 PM.
Last edited by nikosidis on 13-Sep-2018 at 07:44 PM.
Last edited by nikosidis on 13-Sep-2018 at 07:38 PM.
Last edited by nikosidis on 13-Sep-2018 at 07:36 PM.
Last edited by nikosidis on 13-Sep-2018 at 07:31 PM.
Last edited by nikosidis on 13-Sep-2018 at 07:30 PM.
Last edited by nikosidis on 13-Sep-2018 at 07:14 PM.
Last edited by nikosidis on 13-Sep-2018 at 07:09 PM.

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OneTimer1 
Re: Commodore not the only ones to have a bumpy ride
Posted on 13-Sep-2018 22:37:07
#16 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 3-Aug-2015
Posts: 962
From: Unknown

@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote:
@nikosidis

A500 was not that expensive... in comparison to USD2000-3000 "bussines class PCs" of that time (1987).


Yes, but main reasons for the lower price of a A500 was the lack of a HD and no need for a monitor.

The A1200 some years later was much nearer to the price of a standard PC when you bought it with a HD and a Monitor capable of HD resolution, the PCs had become much cheaper and they much more powerful compared with a standard A1200.

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ne_one 
Re: Commodore not the only ones to have a bumpy ride
Posted on 14-Sep-2018 0:30:46
#17 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Jun-2005
Posts: 905
From: Unknown

@pavlor

Quote:
When Steve Jobs returned in charge of the company, he did only sensible decision: one computer model for every main market segment (Power Mac G3, PowerBook, iMac and iBook). With good design and clever marketing, the company returned to profitability.


And bailout funding from what was once perceived to be Apple's archenemy.

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QBit 
Re: Commodore not the only ones to have a bumpy ride
Posted on 15-Sep-2018 9:30:56
#18 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Jun-2018
Posts: 474
From: Unknown


The Amiga Computer made me so horny about it that I worked 6 Weeks in the School Vacation to have the 2000 Deutschmarks it needed to buy it with Color Monitor!

Now I am horny about this Machine https://www.itsco.de/workstation-hp-z820-2x-intel-twelve-core-xeon-e5-2697-v2-12x-2-7ghz.html
but I will wait until there are such Computers to affordable Prizes If I get such a machine for 1000 € I'll buy it!

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pavlor 
Re: Commodore not the only ones to have a bumpy ride
Posted on 15-Sep-2018 9:34:59
#19 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@QBit

What a beast! You really have heavy computing needs.

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QBit 
Re: Commodore not the only ones to have a bumpy ride
Posted on 15-Sep-2018 9:59:00
#20 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Jun-2018
Posts: 474
From: Unknown

@pavlor

I would love to see a Icaros Desktop or AspireOS SMP on such a machine.. with Chipset Drivers Sound and GFX Drivers it would kick ass with AROS!

I am running http://www.asteroidsathome.net/boinc/ BOINC so I would have a use for such a beast!

Last edited by QBit on 15-Sep-2018 at 10:01 AM.
Last edited by QBit on 15-Sep-2018 at 10:00 AM.

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