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DFergFLA 
Sad
Posted on 12-Dec-2018 21:14:08
#1 ]
Member
Joined: 26-Jun-2015
Posts: 32
From: Unknown

Just kind of sad. For years I have wanted to buy a new Amiga. But something always prevented it. The 1000 was just way to expensive. The x5000 seems just right. A price I am willing to pay...etc. And now I finally have the money!! But I just can't do it. I can't spend that much money for a hardware/OS that to this day still doesn't have a modern browser that works with the websites I visit. Years, years I have been hearing about work being done on a new browser... still nothing. Years I have been hearing about 4.2 was "just around the corner" Now that I have the money, I no longer have any confidence in the product. This is what I find sad. I have lost confidence in the first OS I ever truly loved to work with.

From going with a processor that is no longer being targeted at consumer grade computers and is very expensive. To the glacier slow development time. I think Hyperion should write a book in how to take an exciting, loved, Operating System and kill it.

Don't get me wrong I still love Amiga, but I am not spending almost 2000.00 dollars on a computer that can't even surf the web properly.

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Jax 
Re: Sad
Posted on 12-Dec-2018 22:09:39
#2 ]
Member
Joined: 10-May-2018
Posts: 19
From: Czech Republic

@DFergFLA

+1

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Xenic 
Re: Sad
Posted on 12-Dec-2018 23:20:40
#3 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Feb-2004
Posts: 1246
From: Pennsylvania, USA

Quote:
I can't spend that much money for a hardware/OS that to this day still doesn't have a modern browser that works with the websites I visit.

I already have NG Amigas and managed to avoid replacing a dead PC when OWB and later Odyssey were released. Recently, I couldn't access accounts or make purchases at major retail WEB sites and was forced to buy a new laptop. Since most of what I want or need to to do is on the Internet, I seldom even bother to turn on my connected NG Amiga and the other sits in the closet. It will take more that improved system utilities, bug fixes and eye candy to renew my interest in my NG Amigas. Sad indeed.

_________________
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g01df1sh 
Re: Sad
Posted on 12-Dec-2018 23:21:47
#4 ]
Super Member
Joined: 16-Apr-2009
Posts: 1777
From: UK

@Jax

I feel your pain. I too have been waiting years it beggars belief that they seem to find the money for court battles but cant find the money or resources to push the platform forward. I am pretty sure it is Hyperion that have the breaks on. A-Eon come up with the hardware for it only to be delayed years waiting for driver development. The Vampire project is moving at a faster rate than OS4 / AmigaNG hardware now. If OS3.9 got a good browser optimized for the Vampire then that too could be good fun little machine.



The boing has gone is they any bounce left ???

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BigD 
Re: Sad
Posted on 12-Dec-2018 23:25:01
#5 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 7307
From: UK

@DFergFLA

Good for you that you know your own mind. To me though if you want a computer it should be to be creative and use FUN Amiga software NOT to browse the web primarily. Any smart phone can browse the web these days so check your email on your phone while your latest coding project compiles on an AmigaOne.

I have to admit that MOST PC programs are not intuitive to me. I have to include Photoshop and more specialised software like gINT, SAP or MS Access in that group. None of these are designed for ease of use like DrawStudio, PageStream, Deluxe Paint or BlitzBasic. PC coders are more interest in products as platforms or services that they can iterate on forever charging a subscription fee ideally. Ultimately modern PC programs have to be relatively insecure, buggy and basically hard to learn complicated bloatware because that is what is required to keep unimaginative coders in work flogging a dead horse to loyal customers who don't know any better. Think of all the support and training courses you could sell for a mediocre program compared to an excellent ergonomic Amiga-like program.

AMIGA represents FUN computing. If that holds value for you then an AmigaOne 5000 may be worth the asking price. If not buy a Tabor to mess around with when you want some fun and a break from Windows auto updating itself or macOS stopping you using Disk Utilty to burn DVDs because Apple knows best!

Last edited by BigD on 12-Dec-2018 at 11:34 PM.
Last edited by BigD on 12-Dec-2018 at 11:33 PM.
Last edited by BigD on 12-Dec-2018 at 11:31 PM.

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simplex 
Re: Sad
Posted on 13-Dec-2018 2:15:48
#6 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Oct-2003
Posts: 896
From: Hattiesburg, MS

@DFergFLA

1) Does Linux run on the x5000?

2) If it does, would that be an acceptable way to access a web browser?

@thread

It's an unfortunate reality that without a significant investment and continuous development, web browsers stagnate and fall behind. The internet is continuously expanding.

Over in the Haiku review thread, people are complaining that NetPositive isn't the world's most up-to-date web browser. Developers can't make a living on what the Amiga community is able and/or willing to pay, and they have to eat, too. That's the reality for most alternative OS's. The missteps that Commodore, Be, and their successors made during the 90s and early 00s made way for Linux to take the majority of attention and investment available for alternative OS's, so barring some way for other OS's to find an important "killer app" that others don't have... things are grim. People can blame Hyperion for a lot of things, but not for this I think.

Things could be worse: you could be PalmOS. They went from dominating the "mobile device" market to just plain dead.

Last edited by simplex on 13-Dec-2018 at 02:21 AM.
Last edited by simplex on 13-Dec-2018 at 02:16 AM.

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hth313 
Re: Sad
Posted on 13-Dec-2018 5:16:21
#7 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 29-May-2018
Posts: 159
From: Delta, Canada

@DFergFLA

You have to figure out what you want to do with your computer.

If surfing the web is your idea, then get a tablet or some computer running a mainstream operating system. Just forget about the Amiga or any other odd operating system.

If your idea of fun is to port some old software to the Amiga, or maybe some newer software like GIMP, Krita or some language, then just do it. Maybe you have some favourite Amiga software you want to run? If you know you will use it and enjoy it, just get that X5000 and forget what you paid. It is not like it is likely to be superseded by another more powerful Amiga anytime soon. You can always use a tablet on the side as your web browser.

I find it interesting to play with an operating system, so I try to get into doing a little AROS on the side. I hope to get it running on my A3000 and maybe it will run on the RPi some day. Then I will see what I will do with it, perhaps some control program for a model railway that I have yet to build, who knows? That happens to be my idea of fun at the moment, and as I already owned the A3000, the costs have been fairly modest so far.

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graff 
Re: Sad
Posted on 13-Dec-2018 8:23:41
#8 ]
Member
Joined: 4-Jul-2005
Posts: 54
From: Unknown

@simplex

+1

While development is at a slow pace, you can't blame Hyperion for all that which is being said here. The Amiga was a hobby platform already when they got the OS development. In my mind they've managed to keep the boat afloat - probably better than any realistic alternatives.

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OlafS25 
Re: Sad
Posted on 13-Dec-2018 9:10:26
#9 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6321
From: Unknown

@g01df1sh

A-eon did make strange hardware decision that made it more complicated for Hyperion to support it (here I think expecially of Tabor). Also doing custom hardware that only difference to standard hardware is the processor but is as expensive as the best equipped PCs with hardware is on the same level as 5-10 years old PCs is crazy, they should have used standard hardware and concentrated on adapting the OS or port it to something like Raspberry, everything else has to fail. Also not helpful is the blame game between Hyperion and A-eon and partly double work wasting rare resources.

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OlafS25 
Re: Sad
Posted on 13-Dec-2018 9:13:56
#10 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6321
From: Unknown

@BigD

I do not know what programs you use on PC, the software I use is modern and bugs are removed and new features are added, I could never replace PC with something amiga based for work because I would loose all my productivity. Amiga software is mostly easier to learn because it has much less features compared to modern software but that is not a plus to me.

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Trixie 
Re: Sad
Posted on 13-Dec-2018 9:31:19
#11 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 1-Sep-2003
Posts: 2089
From: Czech Republic

@DFergFLA

I know what you mean. In order to stay happy with "things Amiga" (if you still care, that is), the best thing you can do is accept the fact that it's a hobby computer/OS which will not answer today's needs for everyday computing. Developing modern web technologies requires enormous manpower which the Amiga simply doesn't have today. Moreover, web technologies are a moving target, so even if somebody came with a moderately capable browser, it would require constant maintenance to stay safe and up to date.

I can only suggest what others have suggested here: if you still find something that the Amiga can give you, then get a cheap laptop or tablet for using the web. If you no longer find the "fun factor", then the Amiga is not for you and you should move on.

Someone has mentioned Linux under the X5000. It actually runs very well, so a dual-boot system might also be a solution for you. Linux will always be better at web tech compared to the Amiga.

_________________
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AmigaOne X5000/020 @ 2GHz / 4GB RAM / Radeon RX 560 / ESI Juli@ / AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition
SAM440ep-flex @ 667MHz / 1GB RAM / Radeon 9250 / AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition

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Trixie 
Re: Sad
Posted on 13-Dec-2018 9:46:15
#12 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 1-Sep-2003
Posts: 2089
From: Czech Republic

@OlafS25

Quote:
Also not helpful is the blame game between Hyperion and A-eon and partly double work wasting rare resources.

You are right that the situation is not helpful. But how could it possibly be any different when Hyperion expects to retain the OS while A-EON pays for the party?

_________________
The Rear Window blog

AmigaOne X5000/020 @ 2GHz / 4GB RAM / Radeon RX 560 / ESI Juli@ / AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition
SAM440ep-flex @ 667MHz / 1GB RAM / Radeon 9250 / AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition

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OlafS25 
Re: Sad
Posted on 13-Dec-2018 9:59:42
#13 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6321
From: Unknown

@Trixie

I only state the fact... I have no insight knowledge just what is told by both parties in the public (f.e. Cyborg on os4welt.de told something as representative of Hyperion and obviously there is a lot of frustration on both sided). Perhaps it has to do with big egos on all sides, perhaps all are to blame because in life reality most is not black and white but grey.

In any case Tabor (if ever released) will be that old that except to some existing users replacing existing very very old hardware it will not add new users, X5000 is too expensive in any case. Custom hardware in my view is the wrong decision they should have supported something cheap off-the-shelf but for such a shift it is propably too late already...

another bad news for tabor:
https://gcc.gnu.org/ml/gcc/2018-04/msg00107.html
https://gcc.gnu.org/git/?p=gcc.git;a=commitdiff;h=b31d0348ddada49453e3edaaf93a423fdc61dc79

SPE support removed finally in GCC...

Last edited by OlafS25 on 13-Dec-2018 at 10:12 AM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 13-Dec-2018 at 10:09 AM.

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BSzili 
Re: Sad
Posted on 13-Dec-2018 10:21:21
#14 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 16-Nov-2013
Posts: 447
From: Unknown

@BigD

"Fun" have became the mantra of Amiga NG. When people complain that they can't use NG machines for everyday computing tasks, somebody always pops in to profess how much "fun" they are having. What about the people who'd like to use their NG machine as their main machine? I don't think they are having a lot of "fun" just by shuffling icons around in Workbench while watching an animated wallpaper.

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Trixie 
Re: Sad
Posted on 13-Dec-2018 11:20:51
#15 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 1-Sep-2003
Posts: 2089
From: Czech Republic

@BSzili

While I agree that "fun" has become nothing short of a mantra around here, I can't think of a better word to express my personal experience with my NG system. Of course it's not the computer I use for daily work, but I develop software and also do a bit of MIDI work, which certainly gives me enough "fun" to keep the machine. But I'm not trying to convert anyone or urge them to buy overpriced hardware: I believe people have their own minds. As I said above, if the computer doesn't give you anything, just move on.

_________________
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AmigaOne X5000/020 @ 2GHz / 4GB RAM / Radeon RX 560 / ESI Juli@ / AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition
SAM440ep-flex @ 667MHz / 1GB RAM / Radeon 9250 / AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition

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BigD 
Re: Sad
Posted on 13-Dec-2018 11:49:07
#16 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 7307
From: UK

@OlafS25

Quote:

OlafS25 wrote:
@BigD

I do not know what programs you use on PC, the software I use is modern and bugs are removed and new features are added, I could never replace PC with something amiga based for work because I would loose all my productivity. Amiga software is mostly easier to learn because it has much less features compared to modern software but that is not a plus to me.


I've already hinted at the programs I have issue with. It's not that they're impossible to learn it's that they are unintuitive, pay no attention to logical human ergonomical design or in the case of MS Office get a whole generation of users trained in their menu structure (including taking over the majority of ICT school lessons that became devoted to their use in the 90s when programming and computer science should have been taught instead), only to throw it all away with the ribbon interface and mobile style 'huge ungainly buttons' design

Is anyone anymore productive with the ribbon? All I end up doing is button hunting everytime I want to do something slightly different when the menu structure was logical if a little unwieldy!

Programs can become buggy again everytime OS updates are issued on a 'modern OS' and that's pretty much every week now Amiga programs ARE smaller but attempted to do one thing well rather than lots of things in a less than optimal way. DrawStudio STILL runs rings around other vector graphics programs for basic conceptual diagrams. By comparison VectorWorks and AutoCAD are unwieldy and over the top and in the case of Vectorworks are completely incapable of bitmap to vector graphics conversions etc.

Last edited by BigD on 13-Dec-2018 at 11:54 AM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Sad
Posted on 13-Dec-2018 11:52:08
#17 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12795
From: Norway

Quote:
The Vampire project is moving at a faster rate than OS4 / AmigaNG hardware now.


No the Vampire hardware is really slow compared to AmigaOneX5000, its not comparable.

Quote:

If OS3.9 got a good browser optimized for the Vampire then that too could be good fun little machine.


The development tools is worse for AmigaOS3.1/3.5/3.9, I asked for update 3.1.4 SDK at Hyperion, and the response I got it was not needed as no important parts (DOS.library) where updated in AmigaOS3.1.4.

TCP/IP stack is the same for AmigaOS4.1 as it is for AmigaOS3.x, and so suffers the same problems about outdated and useless for porting new software that use different ways to query DNS. And so on, and treading is not possible with socket.lib because roadshow does not enable socket sharing by default, and makes not attempt to distinguish between a "child process" and "process". Well then very not use Pthreads, well PThreads is built on top of Amiga Processes so it’s a no go,
While AmigaOS4.x has concept of a "child process", AmigaOS3.x has no concept of child process, there is no hierarchy model, which can track threaded applications. If a Amiga program quits AmigaOS4.x will tell you that program has quit before it child processes, if AmigaOS3.x program quits, it will just quit, and processes spawned by main program will keep trashing memory. there are concept like death messages, hooks and so to report to main program that sub process has quit, but there is not guaranteed to work. During heavy CPU load it might happen that child process quits after its parent even after it informant it parent is has quit.

I found no other way to safely prevent sub/child from crashing Amiga but to check if the names of child's are running by A Forbid(); FindTask(); Permit(); loop.

So in sort TCP stack sucks on OS3 and OS4.
Threads are hard on OS4 and OS3, and slightly worse on OS3.
Development tools (C/C++) are better on OS4 then they are on OS3.
Large file support is only supported on OS4. and not supported on OS3.
680x0 optimized web browsers are unrealistic as most web tech comes from Linux / Windows world, to keep up you need to use what every they (Linux/Windows) puke out.
Power PC and 680x0 are big endian CPU's you have the same challenges with it comes to JavaScript Jit compilers and things like that.
Web pages are loaded with ARGB web pages, and as far as I know, the Vampire can't do 2D composition drawing, so things like blended images on many layers on top of each other, the Vampire will just suffocate on overload, trying to do the same in software on the CPU.
The Vampire does not have space for 3D chipset, already you have use 2 different cores if like to use RTG or AGA. And only one fits at the time.

Edit: added few more points, after VOX sent me a PM.
yes you can use AROS, and guess development tools be similar to AmigaOS4, due ADTools being open source cooperation between the camp, but the problem here is that AROS is written in 100% C code, and runs slower the AmigaOS3.1.4 or AmigaOS3.5, there for its not public choice.

In addition, there argument about V4 Vampire, well I personally see no point of arguing about product that is not even available,

Developers where unhappy about none standard MMU, and butchered FPU, there is lot stuff you need to fit in to that V4 Vampire chip that was not great.

Not to consider that prices goes up bigger sized FPGA's, you won't put AMD GPU and put into that chip as well? WOW, what is going to cost?

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 13-Dec-2018 at 01:52 PM.

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Plexus 
Re: Sad
Posted on 13-Dec-2018 12:43:56
#18 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 29-Sep-2003
Posts: 289
From: SWEDEN (Sverige)

@DFergFLA

-1
- 100
- 1000 (What I really hear, is alot of Excuses)

But you can spend that money on pizza, beer, candy, pringles, ice creams and fucking hamburgers in a period of 10 years.


shame on you
Go and order your F_ _ _ _ NG X5000 NOW! , no more Excuses

And Yes, I AM judging you

Last edited by Plexus on 13-Dec-2018 at 12:51 PM.
Last edited by Plexus on 13-Dec-2018 at 12:51 PM.
Last edited by Plexus on 13-Dec-2018 at 12:50 PM.
Last edited by Plexus on 13-Dec-2018 at 12:50 PM.
Last edited by Plexus on 13-Dec-2018 at 12:49 PM.
Last edited by Plexus on 13-Dec-2018 at 12:48 PM.

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outlawal2 
Re: Sad
Posted on 13-Dec-2018 13:38:48
#19 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 16-Apr-2010
Posts: 114
From: Unknown

@OlafS25

If I am reading your statement correctly I think you are saying that Tabor won't bring in new users and I disagree with that statement. I have never bought a NG Amiga due to the pricing but if the Tabor ever sees the light of day I WILL be buying one of them And I know I am not the only new customer that will do so.

I am just not convinced we will ever see it now..

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OlafS25 
Re: Sad
Posted on 13-Dec-2018 13:46:53
#20 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6321
From: Unknown

@outlawal2

perhaps some but not enough to make a difference. And expecially noone from outside

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