@bhabbott

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bhabbott wrote: Back in the day I had an A3000 with 50MHz 060 and RTG card. That had almost the same performance as my Vampired A600, but at hugely greater cost (~NZ$10,000 in 1993 dollars). I sold it because web browser compatibility was becoming an issue and I didn't want to waste even more money trying to keep up with PCs. 20 years later even my ridiculously over-powered PC can't keep up with PCs! IMO Windows XP is the best version of Windows, so I refuse to 'upgrade' to Windows 10. Similarly I think WB3.1 is just about perfect for my Amiga. OS 3.9 is bloatware, OS4.1 is a misguided attempt to keep up with PCs, and AROS is a joke. But that's just me. I like having an Amiga that's the same as it was in 1993. Some others don't.

Well, this is a bit contradictory statement from you. You sold your old Amiga because of the web browser situation, and it still isn't better with 68k systems. On NG Amigas it's MUCH better with the Odyssey browser, so for me it would sound that you'd be just the perfect audience for NG options, which would be nice continuation in power and features for your A3000. There are cheap options with minimal costs too.

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@jPV

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There are cheap options with minimal costs too.

but he probably wants to sit in front of an amiga, not in front of mac even running an amigalike system ;) (no pun intended)

lets wait a bit and see how aros owb behaves on vampire. condsidering that odyssey 1.25 already compiles for m68k it might become an option one day. if valid, remains to be seen...

Last edited by wawa on 09-Jan-2019 at 06:20 AM.

@wawa

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wawa wrote: @jPV Quote: There are cheap options with minimal costs too. but he probably wants to sit in front of an amiga, not in front of mac even running an amigalike system ;) (no pun intended)

Most NG systems are skinnable anyway, and there are classic skins available :)

Edit: oops thought you meant the good old "this OS looks like a Mac", but yea hardwarewise you have to do other kinds of modifications (or use big stickers) if that's a problem ;) I forget this because I don't even see my Mac mini which is hidden on a shelf under my table :P

Last edited by jPV on 09-Jan-2019 at 06:36 AM.

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- Software made by jPV^RNO

@wawa

it seems Aros works better with higher colour depths and speed depends on resolutions. Most are playing around with the options at the start.

Good that it works of course

@Srtest

your insults beside... what do you know about us here, if we are "irrelevant industry peeps" or not. You should lower your wording, people should treat each other politely even if we have different views...

You cannot compare X1000 and FPGA based hardware and the concepts are very different too. FPGA is what comes next to original hardware, it implements concepts like blitter from the original hardware, the graphic card on your X1000 not of course. Good for you that you like your X1000 but this thread is about Vampire and Aros, not PowerPC NG hardware. And please... keep your thoughts about your instinct to yourself, not everything in mind has to be written down.

@jPV

web browser are a moving target and thus a big problem with our limited developer resources. OWB on Aros X86 is the current most advanced version as far as I know but it is aging too. In a perfect world all camps would work together to keep it up to date. But that is wishful thinking I know ;)

@wawa

Thanks for your work!

@Wawa

So does it boot from IDE using native AROS ata.device now?

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@OlafS25

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OlafS25 wrote: @jPV web browser are a moving target and thus a big problem with our limited developer resources. OWB on Aros X86 is the current most advanced version as far as I know but it is aging too. In a perfect world all camps would work together to keep it up to date. But that is wishful thinking I know ;)

But still MUCH better than 68k options, as I said. And still good for everyday browsing for me, while I just couldn't do anything with 68k browsers currently.

And MorphOS version of OWB overtook AROS version last year...

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- The wiki based MorphOS Library - Your starting point for MorphOS
- Software made by jPV^RNO

@kolla

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kolla wrote: @Wawa So does it boot from IDE using native AROS ata.device now?

yes. the problem so far i have identified it was gcc-6.3.0. with 4.6.4 it boots. the solution though needs to be found.

@jPV

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And MorphOS version of OWB overtook AROS version last year...

aros odyssey 1.25 still has the newer core. but lets not get at each other who has a bit newer browser. this is not the topic.

@jPV

do we return to the old tune MorphOS is best of all again?

How did MorphOS OWB on PPC solve the endian problems?

But instead of praising your preferred choice you did not comment what I wrote... that Browsers with lots of updates are too much work for a single camp to stay up to date

At some point, "we" need to admit that the original Amiga hardware design was not perfect.
The weak 68000 was augmented by custom chips. With no "fast" ram, memory access was generally at half the speed it could be at. Zorro was good at the time but has since been greatly superceded by PCIe. The Vampire's SAGA is essentially abandoning the Amiga custom chips...rather than enhancing them. So if RTG is the future then....

So yes, if someone was to design a true modern Amiga with a real 68k_x64 cpu It would be more or less a PC motherboard with a 68k compatible cpu. Heck even Commodore with the Hombre chipset was heading in this direction.

Sometimes being different is good...but being toooooo different is bad.

This is where AROS can really shine since it already works with many "pc" motherboards...just a matter of making one with your religious cpu socket of choice...

Another [major] + of AROS is AROSx64+SMP. (and yes I realize that only works on the AMDx64 currently, and just because Intel adopted the instructions doesn't make it any less an AMD design... )

Last edited by Lou on 09-Jan-2019 at 02:43 PM.

@OlafS25

MorphOS OWB is based on older webkit thant AROS. However, we fixed some of network handling so network operations are faster now. There were some fixes regarding google accounts, flex in Css so for example http://lichess.org and http://allegro.pl don't look like a garbage.

@rzookol

the subject here is aros on vampire. we dont have morphos version for this hardware. neither we have os4 for this. imho the only way to improve on this (with the potential help of community) is bundling the effort on aros68k. the other option is to wait for updates from thor and olsen regarding their kickstart 3.1.4, but for one these improvements are minimal in comparison and secodly we are again dependent on two developers and an unpredictable company.

Last edited by wawa on 09-Jan-2019 at 02:48 PM.

@OlafS25

Quote:

OlafS25 wrote: @jPV do we return to the old tune MorphOS is best of all again? How did MorphOS OWB on PPC solve the endian problems? But instead of praising your preferred choice you did not comment what I wrote... that Browsers with lots of updates are too much work for a single camp to stay up to date

If you read my posts, I tried to be unbiased and talked generally about NG systems (didn't mention any by name, and I think you could pick any of them and my comments would still be valid) versus 68k systems.

You yourself raised the platform specific view to the discussion, to which I then replied, because your comment wasn't up-to-date in my opinion anymore. I had no intentions to go to this direction myself.

MorphOS OWB haven't solved the endian problems with newer cores, but there are many other things which can still be improved and changed for better compatibility. 3.10 introduced Deadwood's AROS fixes in the MorphOS OWB, as well as other fixes and improvements. 3.11 added many CSS, JavaScript, etc improvements, which I believe bring the current version more compatible than the AROS version. And AFAIK MorphOS team is committed to continue improving the browser with the future releases.

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@bhabbott

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But that's just me. I like having an Amiga that's the same as it was in 1993. Some others don't.

Funny coming from the guy who hacked together a FDD into the CD32. :) Much appreciated btw. :)

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wawa wrote: after i have now an a600 with vampire on my desk in front of me i think it is actually cool for what it is. sure we can discuss design decisions, but it indicates what can be done with a n amiga concept and 68k and if anybody comes over and offers something better, then so be it;) we will have aros runing on it as well;) and therefore the whole amiga software legacy,. and this is what we want, right?

Proliferating AROS to new hardware is good and Amiga compatibility is good. I am just disappointed the path ahead for this hardware ends.

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wawa wrote: back on subject i have rtg working. but the driver doesnt seem to work very well. looks like alphablitting is a problem. moving the mouse cursor is laggy and interrupts other grahical operations. it isnt really usable in that state. i cant really compare to the genuine system atm unfortunately. looks like i need to ask around the team.

Do all blitted bitmaps have alpha data (legacy Amiga CLUT with transparency color, 16 bits and 24 bit bitmaps won't work)? Does the Amiga custom chip hardware sprite work on SAGA RTG? Can it be enabled instead of the software sprite for RTG? Have you played with the (P96?) tooltypes for the SAGA driver?

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Lou wrote: At some point, "we" need to admit that the original Amiga hardware design was not perfect. The weak 68000 was augmented by custom chips. With no "fast" ram, memory access was generally at half the speed it could be at. Zorro was good at the time but has since been greatly superceded by PCIe. The Vampire's SAGA is essentially abandoning the Amiga custom chips...rather than enhancing them. So if RTG is the future then....

Custom chips and RTG are not exclusive to each other. SAGA is compatible to AGA and supports RTG with P96. Banging the hardware or using the planar AmigaOS graphics.library or using RTG chunky are all possible but only the latter 2 options at the same time (banging the hardware is not conducive to sharing hardware but important for compatibility). AROS would likely move the planar AmigaOS driver out of the graphics.library and into the SAGA driver with the chunky driver for a more modular RTG. The other option would be to move the chunky driver into the graphics.library and have separate graphics.librarys for each gfx driver. C= did have a separate graphics.library for AGA machines so this is closer to what they were doing and it may have a small performance advantage. In any case, SAGA is *not* abandoning the Amiga custom chips. Quite the opposite, it has excellent compatibility with the custom chips and enhancements to them.

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So yes, if someone was to design a true modern Amiga with a real 68k_x64 cpu It would be more or less a PC motherboard with a 68k compatible cpu. Heck even Commodore with the Hombre chipset was heading in this direction.

An entry level Amiga could be pretty close to a single chip SoC with little left in the way of a motherboard. The basic adapters are HDMI/DVI, USB, ethernet and SATA (the RaspberryPi skips this). It makes sense again to have integrated gfx avoiding a slow PCIe bus with Moore's Law ending. There are always some folks who want very high end graphics so high end hardware probably would have PCIe slots. RTG would support other gfx cards but they would lose AGA compatibility.

Quote:

Sometimes being different is good...but being toooooo different is bad. This is where AROS can really shine since it already works with many "pc" motherboards...just a matter of making one with your religious cpu socket of choice... Another [major] + of AROS is AROSx64+SMP. (and yes I realize that only works on the AMDx64 currently, and just because Intel adopted the instructions doesn't make it any less an AMD design... )

There has been talk of AROS SMP for the Raspberry Pi too. SMP with Amiga compatibility is difficult though as Forbid()/Permit() and Disable()/Enable() are kludges without customized support and affordable 68k FPGA only CPUs do not have room for multiple cores.

@matthey

i cant play with tooltypes as aros loads the driver on command line via arosbootstrap curently and such files as as monitors and their icons arnt parsed at all, for what i know. but apollo team has decided to make hwsprite default now, or at least flype will be compiling me a driver with this as default, so we will see how it works.

Last edited by wawa on 09-Jan-2019 at 07:40 PM.

@matthey

smp implementation is completely off for m68k on aros. it isnt in separate branch but its ifdeffed within the main source. some structs have been extended. i see no option for it currently on m68k.