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ne_one 
Re: Amiga Documents scuttlebutt on Hyperion
Posted on 24-Jan-2019 1:11:32
#41 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Jun-2005
Posts: 875
From: Unknown

@matthey

Quote:
The Timothy De Groote (SimplePPC) post of "PS: why don't you ask me or other people@Hyperion if we are getting rich from this or getting paid?" would be disingenuous at the very least. Yes, Hyperion employees may not be getting payed yet but it looks to me like some of them are liabilities which don't deserve to be paid.


Claiming that Hyperion even has employees is dubious at best.

And yes, there will always be people with gripes who were associated with business ventures. The problem is that the number and range of detractors continues to grow.

Let's face it, even Trevor Dickinson has distanced himself. That alone speaks volumes.

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Srtest 
Re: Amiga Documents scuttlebutt on Hyperion
Posted on 24-Jan-2019 7:26:15
#42 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Nov-2016
Posts: 242
From: Israel, Haderah

@ne_one

So now someone who has nothing to do with 4.1 or A1 considers Trevor the measuring stick or some savior? What do you know about those machines and their os? are you a user? do you develop software for those? just another one who's full of it.

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Trixie 
Re: Amiga Documents scuttlebutt on Hyperion
Posted on 24-Jan-2019 8:21:45
#43 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 1-Sep-2003
Posts: 1864
From: Czech Republic

@Srtest

Quote:
What do you know about those machines and their os? are you a user? do you develop software for those? just another one who's full of it.

Well, haven't we already got used to the nay-saying specimens who've never actually owned an OS4 system yet they seem to know all about the experience?

_________________
Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast!

AmigaOne X5000/020 @ 2GHz / 4GB RAM / Radeon RX 560 / ESI Juli@ / AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition
SAM440ep-flex @ 667MHz / 1GB RAM / Radeon 9250 / AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition

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OlafS25 
Re: Amiga Documents scuttlebutt on Hyperion
Posted on 24-Jan-2019 9:35:40
#44 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5638
From: Unknown

@Trixie

Funnily some of the biggest supporters of OS4 do neither own nor use it either

To be for or against a religion you do not have to own it

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matthey 
Re: Amiga Documents scuttlebutt on Hyperion
Posted on 24-Jan-2019 15:49:38
#45 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 655
From: Kansas

Quote:

OlafS25 wrote:
Funnily some of the biggest supporters of OS4 do neither own nor use it either


If Hyperion development continues, "some of biggest supporters of OS4" would be 68k AmigaOS 3.1.4 users. The 68k subsidies would be the enabler for the PPC failure to continue by throwing good money after bad. The 68k is like Germany and PPC is like Greece so take money from Germany and use it to save Greece.

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ferrels 
Re: Amiga Documents scuttlebutt on Hyperion
Posted on 24-Jan-2019 16:37:54
#46 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 825
From: Arizona

@matthey

Quote:
If Hyperion development continues, "some of biggest supporters of OS4" would be 68k AmigaOS 3.1.4 users.


Hyperion has never conducted any development. OS4 hasn't been improved since it was released some 16 years ago and it was created using contract programmers just as was OS 3.1.4. It's those programmers who did any development only to get stiffed by a law firm masquerading as a software development house.

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pavlor 
Re: Amiga Documents scuttlebutt on Hyperion
Posted on 24-Jan-2019 17:16:24
#47 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9072
From: Unknown

@ferrels

Quote:
OS4 hasn't been improved since it was released some 16 years ago




I used only 4.1 and 4.1FE, but the diference between them is noticeable. As OS4 works in WinUAE, you may try it yourself and see, how the OS changed since the pre-release era.

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ferrels 
Re: Amiga Documents scuttlebutt on Hyperion
Posted on 24-Jan-2019 17:37:42
#48 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 825
From: Arizona

@pavlor

Quote:
I used only 4.1 and 4.1FE, but the diference between them is noticeable. As OS4 works in WinUAE, you may try it yourself and see, how the OS changed since the pre-release era.


I have used both and I still use 4.1FE for testing purposes and the differences you and I are seeing aren't due to anything contributed by Hyperion, but merely "window dressings" developed by 3rd parties. And to call an era that lasted approx. 14 years a "pre-release" era is simply ridiculous. It was just a play on words that Hyperion used to cover its @ss for not delivering on its promises

I'm referring to the promised 64-bit support, SMP, security, etc....which was promised as far back as 2007. It's painfully clear at this point that Ben Hermans, or whatever you want to call the mess that is Hyperion, is either unable or unwilling to deliver on any of those promises.

I bought my first OS4 machine in late 2007 from Bill Buck for a princely sum of $750. It was a great machine.....but OS4, well, not so much.... I found that it had rough feature parity with Windows 98 and that's where OS4 in its "many" incarnations still sits today. I finally sold the machine for exactly what I paid for it in 2010 and threw my copies of OS4 and MOS into the deal for free to the buyer. He was pleased and so was I. I've been using 4.1FE now for a couple years now via Amiga Forever and toy with porting my LIDAR applications to it, but it's pointless because OS4 only supports 32-bit addressing and some of the data sets I use exceed 4GB.

Last edited by ferrels on 24-Jan-2019 at 06:13 PM.
Last edited by ferrels on 24-Jan-2019 at 06:11 PM.

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Rob 
Re: Amiga Documents scuttlebutt on Hyperion
Posted on 24-Jan-2019 18:27:24
#49 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 5841
From: S.Wales

@ferrels

Quote:
I'm referring to the promised 64-bit support,


Citations please.

Quote:
SMP,


Fair comment.

Quote:
security,


We were never promised anything beyond security through obscurity.

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matthey 
Re: Amiga Documents scuttlebutt on Hyperion
Posted on 24-Jan-2019 18:45:47
#50 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 655
From: Kansas

Quote:

ferrels wrote:
Hyperion has never conducted any development. OS4 hasn't been improved since it was released some 16 years ago and it was created using contract programmers just as was OS 3.1.4. It's those programmers who did any development only to get stiffed by a law firm masquerading as a software development house.


Contracting work out instead of dealing with ever increasing socialist labor regulations is common in modern businesses. The contractors can develop property owned or licensed by the business. It may be easier to stiff contract labor as they are not protected by labor regulations. They have to sue as a separate business entity instead. In some locations, they may be able to force a business into bankruptcy for non-payment but would be unlikely to recover payments owed, especially with a software company which has few tangible assets.

Perhaps Hyperion was close to bankruptcy and lowered the cost of AmigaOS 4.1 FE to quickly raise cash to pay their bills (not knowing they would receive a cash infusion from a certain entity). While this may have helped them survive in the short term, it likely lowered the cost of AmigaOS 4.1 FE below the break even point. They collect profit from the current sales to pay for future development but now they need to obtain cash from elsewhere to sustain development. They need to raise the cost (double?) of AmigaOS 4 future versions or every copy they sell may result in the business losing money.

There may be an option to lower the cost of AmigaOS 4 and increase the amount of 3rd party software available. AmigaOS 68k could be upgraded closer to AmigaOS 4 standards and API (most components are C) sharing development costs and enlarging the user base. Hyperion looks foolish and arrogant for dropping 68k support in the first place. All these years of losing money may have been avoidable if they had a 68k AmigaOS 4 product. Now, I'm not sure if Hyperion has enough trust or leadership to do anything.

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pavlor 
Re: Amiga Documents scuttlebutt on Hyperion
Posted on 24-Jan-2019 18:48:05
#51 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9072
From: Unknown

@ferrels

Quote:
I have used both and I still use 4.1FE for testing purposes and the differences you and I are seeing aren't due to anything contributed by Hyperion, but merely "window dressings" developed by 3rd parties


"Testing purposes", that must have been really quick testing...

Features I consider most important since 2007:

compositing, virtual memory/SWAP (2008: 4.1)
Ringhio (notifications), AppDir (2010: 4.1u1)
USB2.0 support (2011: 4.1u3)
RunInUAE contribution (2011: 4.1u4)
AmiUpdate (2012: 4.1u6)
support for more than 2 GB RAM (EMS style...), menus system with unlimited menus and sub menus, unified graphics library = no more Picasso96 (2014: 4.1FE)
support for Z3 RAM as regular Fast RAM; support for disks larger than 2 TB (2016: 4.1FEu1)

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OneTimer1 
Re: Amiga Documents scuttlebutt on Hyperion
Posted on 24-Jan-2019 18:57:02
#52 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 3-Aug-2015
Posts: 524
From: Unknown

@Thread

> Short: Advanced snake/Tron game
> Downloads: 6665
Source: https://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=43081&forum=2&start=20&viewmode=flat&order=0#820755

> Downloads are accumulated between versions.
Source: https://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=43081&forum=2&start=20&viewmode=flat&order=0#820760

That's the reason why I can't believe some numbers about Vampire accelerators ...

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spud101 
Re: Amiga Documents scuttlebutt on Hyperion
Posted on 24-Jan-2019 21:12:40
#53 ]
Member
Joined: 4-Aug-2016
Posts: 51
From: Unknown

@Rob


Quote:
We were never promised anything beyond security through obscurity.


Well, at least there is some consistency in the Amiga sene... The security policy of the site admin of Amigaworld is similar at best...

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ferrels 
Re: Amiga Documents scuttlebutt on Hyperion
Posted on 24-Jan-2019 23:05:40
#54 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 825
From: Arizona

@Rob




Quote:

Rob wrote:
@ferrels

Quote:
I'm referring to the promised 64-bit support,


Citations please.

Quote:
SMP,


Fair comment.

Quote:
security,


We were never promised anything beyond security through obscurity.



Gosh, if I had a dime for every time some clown asked me to cite Hyperion's promises.....

Here's just one citation from Hyperion itself back in 2013 still talking about 64-bit and SMP/multi-core. I can go back as far as 2007 and find references to this.

http://blog.hyperion-entertainment.com/?tag=execsg

and another from 2015...

http://blog.hyperion-entertainment.com/?p=1184

I have better things to do at the moment so knock yourself out researching any other areas where you require citations. There are plenty of them out there.

Last edited by ferrels on 24-Jan-2019 at 11:28 PM.
Last edited by ferrels on 24-Jan-2019 at 11:23 PM.
Last edited by ferrels on 24-Jan-2019 at 11:21 PM.

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ferrels 
Re: Amiga Documents scuttlebutt on Hyperion
Posted on 24-Jan-2019 23:10:20
#55 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 825
From: Arizona

@pavlor

Quote:
"Testing purposes", that must have been really quick testing... Features I consider most important since 2007: compositing, virtual memory/SWAP (2008: 4.1) Ringhio (notifications), AppDir (2010: 4.1u1) USB2.0 support (2011: 4.1u3) RunInUAE contribution (2011: 4.1u4) AmiUpdate (2012: 4.1u6) support for more than 2 GB RAM (EMS style...), menus system with unlimited menus and sub menus, unified graphics library = no more Picasso96 (2014: 4.1FE) support for Z3 RAM as regular Fast RAM; support for disks larger than 2 TB (2016: 4.1FEu1)


Quick testing? Seriously? There's nothing quick about OS4 especially when I started with it in 2007 and now it's 2019. Any progress with OS4 is glacial and it still has a feature set stuck in 1998. You're also not qualified in any way to address the testing I've conducted on OS4 so i won't even continue addressing that snide remark.

Most important since 2007?.....You do realize it's 2019 don't you and that I have a cell phone that's more powerful than any PPC system running OS4?

Yep, all just window dressing for someone who needs 64-bit support, SMP, current TLS/SSL security and multi-user capability....OpenGL support greater than v1.4 would be nice too, but again, is that asking too much in 2019?

Wow, > 2GB RAM and > 2TB disk support....let's see, the rest of the world got those features at least 16 years ago when Windows XP 64 was released...and OMG, USB 2.0 support in 2011....I think I will wet my panties! I had that in 1998!

Last edited by ferrels on 25-Jan-2019 at 01:22 AM.
Last edited by ferrels on 25-Jan-2019 at 01:20 AM.
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Last edited by ferrels on 25-Jan-2019 at 12:07 AM.
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Last edited by ferrels on 24-Jan-2019 at 11:52 PM.
Last edited by ferrels on 24-Jan-2019 at 11:18 PM.
Last edited by ferrels on 24-Jan-2019 at 11:17 PM.
Last edited by ferrels on 24-Jan-2019 at 11:12 PM.

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ferrels 
Re: Amiga Documents scuttlebutt on Hyperion
Posted on 24-Jan-2019 23:27:27
#56 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 825
From: Arizona

@matthey

Quote:
Now, I'm not sure if Hyperion has enough trust or leadership to do anything.


I totally agree. I believe Ben has burned too many bridges and now anyone with the expertise to code for either OS3 or OS4 wouldn't even consider engaging in a contract with Hyperion unless Ben agrees to pay them up front first. And that isn't going to happen since Hyperion can't even pay its own bills.

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ferrels 
Re: Amiga Documents scuttlebutt on Hyperion
Posted on 24-Jan-2019 23:47:42
#57 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 825
From: Arizona

@OneTimer1

Quote:
@Thread > Short: Advanced snake/Tron game > Downloads: 6665 Source: https://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=43081&forum=2&start=20&viewmode=flat&order=0#820755 > Downloads are accumulated between versions. Source: https://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=43081&forum=2&start=20&viewmode=flat&order=0#820760 That's the reason why I can't believe some numbers about Vampire accelerators ...


Yep, and here's why the Aminet numbers can't be trusted or used for any kind of analysis. You'll find similar discrepancies for just about any package you search. Here's WormWars.lha showing a total of 5401 downloads.

http://aminet.net/search?f=2&path=game/actio&start=350

and yet viewed on this page the number is 6676

http://aminet.net/package/game/actio/WormWars

I don't believe the Vampire sales figures that I've heard/read about either. Only Gunnar or one or two other people on his team know the real sales numbers and that's as it should be. I also see the Vampire for what it is. It's an FPGA device just like the cheap retro-console devices that are in vogue at the moment. But unfortunately there are zealots who think that the Vampire will take the world by storm and that the Amiga will once again be a factor in the marketplace. Complete delusion.


Last edited by ferrels on 24-Jan-2019 at 11:51 PM.
Last edited by ferrels on 24-Jan-2019 at 11:51 PM.
Last edited by ferrels on 24-Jan-2019 at 11:50 PM.
Last edited by ferrels on 24-Jan-2019 at 11:48 PM.

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K-L 
Re: Amiga Documents scuttlebutt on Hyperion
Posted on 25-Jan-2019 3:24:27
#58 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2006
Posts: 1340
From: Oullins, France

@ferrels

Seriously ? You've spent nearly one hour to answer to everyone trying to prove them wrong (and I'm not even sure you managed to do it actually) ?

_________________
AmigaONE X1000, 2GB, Sapphire Radeon HD 7700
Webmaster of Amiga-NG.org (French)

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gregthecanuck 
Re: Amiga Documents scuttlebutt on Hyperion
Posted on 25-Jan-2019 4:38:18
#59 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 30-Dec-2003
Posts: 844
From: Vancouver, Canada

@thread

So here we are in 2019 and still dealing with the 'mess' that is OS4 and OS3 development.

First thing which I believe we all realize is that nobody is going to get 'rich' on OS4/OS3 (at least for the near future).

Secondly as time goes on I am believing more and more that a software company run by lawyers is a bad combination. Whereas most companies avoid lawyers because of the legal expense/mess that follows, having an almost-free lawyer in-house puts one into a position they must be careful not to abuse. Why negotiate when you can litigate?

I know there have been various court cases, legal documents and other agreements covering off who-owns-what. But if Hyperion wanted to do an OS3 upgrade, surely they could have come together with the other interested parties and worked something out? I can think of at least one or two scenarios that could work in everyone's favour. Rather than 'going for it' and trying to deal with the fallout afterwards? It should have been no surprise that other parties were going to be unhappy with this.

Same with OS4... what the heck is going on? Been in limbo for quite some time and has been noted A-EON has resorted to various third-party work (Radeon graphics) and now possibly updating the Exec core? Yikes.

This situation is INCREDIBLY frustrating. Watching all the new hardware being held back by frozen software support. There is some really nice PPC and 68K hardware coming down the line. Many users will end up owning and supporting both.

Where is Hyperion? If they want to be a developer then bloody well get off the pot or pass the torch to someone else. Time is up.

I would hope that at some point all the interested parties can get together and work something out for the common interest... and keep the @!#$ lawyers out of the room.

Sorry this is a bit of a rant but hey it's free. :)










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ferrels 
Re: Amiga Documents scuttlebutt on Hyperion
Posted on 25-Jan-2019 4:53:40
#60 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 825
From: Arizona

@K-L

Quote:
@ferrels Seriously ? You've spent nearly one hour to answer to everyone trying to prove them wrong (and I'm not even sure you managed to do it actually) ?



Don't worry, I was only trying to convince people who respond to facts and reason. Not sure you fall into that category based on your comment here: https://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=43080&forum=33&start=40&viewmode=flat&order=0#820829

If you fall into that other category, you could always just act like an adult and ignore me rather than throwing a public temper tantrum.

Last edited by ferrels on 25-Jan-2019 at 05:00 AM.
Last edited by ferrels on 25-Jan-2019 at 04:58 AM.
Last edited by ferrels on 25-Jan-2019 at 04:56 AM.

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