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      /  Where be Tabor?
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PosterThread
Snorg 
Re: Where be Tabor?
Posted on 5-Apr-2019 8:12:37
#21 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 1-Feb-2018
Posts: 117
From: Unknown

@BigD

They didn't have 5 years in the first place, but selecting an incompatible processor - it certainly would appear - has delayed the board to the point where it no longer matters.

... and that rant was unwarranted.

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BigD 
Re: Where be Tabor?
Posted on 5-Apr-2019 8:49:07
#22 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5106
From: UK

@Snorg

Quote:
... and that rant was unwarranted.


Urrrgh?! Yes, the rant was warranted because 'tlosm' is suggesting that A-EON further complicate a design that was supposed to bring a low-ish price point to potential Amiga-NG customers! A further CPU change / redesign would most probably mean that A-EON would have to charge X5000 level prices to recoup the design / prototyping cost etc

... so yes some people in Amigaland are generally after the ideal scenarios which can never come to be, IMHO a world where the A1222 is released, whatever its shortcomings, is better than a world where faffing over a CPU choice meant that it was never released at all!

... please note that Wings and Tower57 have Tabor versions specially recompiled for the weird pseudo-FPU / SPE unit. So people have already spent the time testing, coding and supporting this board only to let audio drivers and component shortfalls trip it up. It doesn't sound like Hyperion are helping too much behind the scenes either

... but a further redesign is not the solution. Period. End of. No debate.

Last edited by BigD on 05-Apr-2019 at 08:53 AM.

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bennymee 
Re: Where be Tabor?
Posted on 5-Apr-2019 9:25:42
#23 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 19-Aug-2003
Posts: 573
From: Netherlands

@tlosm

Redesign with another cpu, which cpu is on the same price level as the P1022 ?


Implementing hardware support for decoding videostream's and such in the RadeonHD/Nova drivers would be more interesting imho.

Last edited by bennymee on 05-Apr-2019 at 09:27 AM.

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Trixie 
Re: Where be Tabor?
Posted on 5-Apr-2019 9:25:59
#24 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 1-Sep-2003
Posts: 1888
From: Czech Republic

@BigD

Quote:
a further redesign is not the solution. Period.

While that is perfectly true, the Tabor now has no chance to become anything but a stop-gap. The dropping of SPE support from the GCC codebase has thrown a major spanner in the works. In not-so-distant future it will only be possible to compile SPE-enabled software with an ancient version of the compiler. This will complicate the building of projects that rely on stuff from other platforms. So at some point it may become impossible to produce new, SPE-specific versions of the Radeon drivers, OGLES, SDL, NetSurf...

Like it or not, A-EON's goose is cooked as regards the Tabor. They will have to design another low-cost solution sooner or later.

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gregthecanuck 
Re: Where be Tabor?
Posted on 5-Apr-2019 9:47:54
#25 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 30-Dec-2003
Posts: 844
From: Vancouver, Canada

@Trixie

Oh I didn't know about SPE support being dropped. Just did a quick search and you are correct:

https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=GCC-Removes-PowerPCSPE

If I was A-EON I would just blow out my current inventory as a Linux board and move on to a new design. No other logical choice, really. Use a new CPU that is now compatible with the OS4 code base and call it a day. The solves two issues - being held back by Hyperion and having the stigma of selling a slightly-incompatible and nearing-obsolescence processor. I know I would not buy the board if the compiler support was dropped.

As for the whole "why was this chosen in the first place" I believe the newer now-compatible chips weren't available at the time or some other valid reason came up.

Just terrible bad luck. Amiga curse strikes again. First the PA-SEMI buyout, now this. It's a wonder Trevor is still sane.

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BigD 
Re: Where be Tabor?
Posted on 5-Apr-2019 10:21:05
#26 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5106
From: UK

@Trixie

Isn't this a bigger deal for Linux support? Amiga developers are used to using obsolete compilers and software

_________________
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Trixie 
Re: Where be Tabor?
Posted on 5-Apr-2019 11:02:45
#27 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 1-Sep-2003
Posts: 1888
From: Czech Republic

@gregthecanuck

Quote:
As for the whole "why was this chosen in the first place" I believe the newer now-compatible chips weren't available at the time

That is exactly the case. It has been discussed before that the choice of CPU in the Tabor was a virtue of necessity. Had the T-series of Freescale processors been available at the time, I guess the choice would've been different. But it's easy to be clever and see things "right" with hindsight

@BigD

Quote:
Amiga developers are used to using obsolete compilers and software

Sure, but once your software stops building because the new code relies on certain compiler/language features, the question of what Amiga developers are used to becomes quite irrelevant.

Last edited by Trixie on 05-Apr-2019 at 11:08 AM.

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Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast!

AmigaOne X5000/020 @ 2GHz / 4GB RAM / Radeon RX 560 / ESI Juli@ / AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition
SAM440ep-flex @ 667MHz / 1GB RAM / Radeon 9250 / AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition

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tlosm 
Re: Where be Tabor?
Posted on 5-Apr-2019 11:16:56
#28 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2683
From: Amiga land

@bennymee

I dont know the prices but dont think the 5010 or 5020 prize much more than the A1222
you can check and compare here

https://www.mouser.it/NXP/Semiconductors/Embedded-Processors-Controllers/_/N-6hpef?P=1z0zl8b


edit ... e5500 prize about 200 more than the P1020 series but there are more cpu to check in prize and evalutate... letz play

Last edited by tlosm on 05-Apr-2019 at 11:33 AM.
Last edited by tlosm on 05-Apr-2019 at 11:21 AM.

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BigD 
Re: Where be Tabor?
Posted on 5-Apr-2019 11:22:46
#29 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5106
From: UK

@Trixie

Quite frankly this is the last roll of the dice regarding the AmigaOne project from where I'm standing (and yes you could have said the same about the X1000). Companies are made and broken on things like the choice of the CPU for their product so may be it just wasn't meant to be.

However, I for one would like to see how it plays out. i.e. what the RRP will be, what the 'real world' performance is, how much support for it is still out there and whether A-EON and Trevor in particular can 'market' their way out of this less than ideal situation. If I was a betting man I would say that they can! Whether Hyperion will still be around for any future potential hardware cycle is highly debatable at this junction and their removal from the market (along with some IP and likely a lot of AmigaOS's PPC codebase) would cause more issues than an under supported / exotic CPU in the Tabor!

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tlosm 
Re: Where be Tabor?
Posted on 5-Apr-2019 11:37:32
#30 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2683
From: Amiga land

The e6500 12 cores 24 thread prize about 200 more than 5020 ...

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MacBook Pro Retina I7 2.3ghz;
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BigD 
Re: Where be Tabor?
Posted on 5-Apr-2019 11:40:35
#31 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5106
From: UK

@tlosm

Trixie mentioned the T-Series so that is where you should start IMHO. The price should be comparable not $100s more!

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tlosm 
Re: Where be Tabor?
Posted on 5-Apr-2019 12:12:35
#32 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2683
From: Amiga land

by the way in the website there are all the prize for the cpus for single and for quantity ... for sure other series prize little more than the e5500 (x5000) but with more core/threads and with altivec.
Same you can check comparing the tabor cpu with alternatives...

My feeling is they make the machine with this cpus only for have best profict and not the best performances.

Last edited by tlosm on 05-Apr-2019 at 12:13 PM.

_________________
I love Amiga and new hope by AmigaNG
A 500 + ; CDTV; CD32;
PowerMac G5 Quad 8GB,SSD,SSHD,7800gtx,Radeon R5 230 2GB;
MacBook Pro Retina I7 2.3ghz;
#nomorea-eoninmyhome

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BigD 
Re: Where be Tabor?
Posted on 5-Apr-2019 12:19:50
#33 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5106
From: UK

@tlosm

It's 'price' not 'prize'. Although I'd like to win a Tabor as a 'Prize' if A-EON ran a competition, i.e. guess the next CPU they're going to use

How much is a T1020 for comparison with the P1020? Would it do the job?

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Mr_DBUG 
Re: Where be Tabor?
Posted on 5-Apr-2019 12:23:10
#34 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 12-Dec-2005
Posts: 179
From: South of Oslo

@gregthecanuck

Quote:

gregthecanuck wrote:

Just terrible bad luck. Amiga curse strikes again. First the PA-SEMI buyout, now this. It's a wonder Trevor is still sane.


Why would you believe sanity has anything to do with anything in the NG Amiga scene ?

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BigD 
Re: Where be Tabor?
Posted on 5-Apr-2019 12:46:57
#35 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5106
From: UK

@Mr_DBUG

Ha ha ha, and yet you're here discussing it!? Taking part in discussing something this niche that you think is insane is probably the definition of insanity in itself!

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

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tlosm 
Re: Where be Tabor?
Posted on 5-Apr-2019 12:58:08
#36 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2683
From: Amiga land

@BigD

i dont see the T1020 series the only T series available on the site are the

Mfr. Part No.
T2081NSN8TTB
Mouser Part No
841-T2081NSN8TTB 4 cores 64 bit
NXP / Freescale Microprocessors - MPU 1.87GT/s DDR3/3L 2x10GE
Datasheet
Non-Stocked Lead-Time 16 Weeks
60: 169,58


Or the
fr. Part No.
P2020NSN2KFC 1 Ghz 2 cores
Mouser Part No
841-P2020NSN2KFC
NXP / Freescale Microprocessors - MPU P2020 ST 1000/667 R2.1
Datasheet
21
In Stock
1: 97,84


_________________
I love Amiga and new hope by AmigaNG
A 500 + ; CDTV; CD32;
PowerMac G5 Quad 8GB,SSD,SSHD,7800gtx,Radeon R5 230 2GB;
MacBook Pro Retina I7 2.3ghz;
#nomorea-eoninmyhome

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Rob 
Re: Where be Tabor?
Posted on 5-Apr-2019 17:53:53
#37 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 5849
From: S.Wales

@Trixie

Quote:
While that is perfectly true, the Tabor now has no chance to become anything but a stop-gap. The dropping of SPE support from the GCC codebase has thrown a major spanner in the works. In not-so-distant future it will only be possible to compile SPE-enabled software with an ancient version of the compiler. This will complicate the building of projects that rely on stuff from other platforms. So at some point it may become impossible to produce new, SPE-specific versions of the Radeon drivers, OGLES, SDL, NetSurf...

Like it or not, A-EON's goose is cooked as regards the Tabor. They will have to design another low-cost solution sooner or later.


It's not necessarily gone for good.

https://gcc.gnu.org/ml/gcc-patches/2018-12/msg00592.html

It would probably be A-EON interests to offer some kind of assistance so it can be added back into the next release.

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klx300r 
Re: Where be Tabor?
Posted on 5-Apr-2019 18:10:56
#38 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 4-Mar-2008
Posts: 3514
From: Toronto, Canada

@Rob

+1 & makes most sense for A-EON at this point

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Petah 
Re: Where be Tabor?
Posted on 5-Apr-2019 18:28:47
#39 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 368
From: EU <3 ❤️

What would the best solution for connecting a A2000/3000/4000/CDTV keyboard to the Tabor be?

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Rob 
Re: Where be Tabor?
Posted on 5-Apr-2019 19:54:39
#40 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 5849
From: S.Wales

@Petah

Why would you want to connect a DIN/MiniDIN Amiga keyboard to the Tabor?

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