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      /  Qemu and os4
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g01df1sh 
Qemu and os4
Posted on 1-May-2019 11:17:33
#1 ]
Super Member
Joined: 16-Apr-2009
Posts: 1660
From: UK

Hi

What is needed to run os4.1 under qemu? is 3d hardware supported so like tower57 would be able to run ?

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pavlor 
Re: Qemu and os4
Posted on 1-May-2019 11:22:20
#2 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9010
From: Unknown

@g01df1sh

Quote:
What is needed to run os4.1 under qemu? is 3d hardware supported so like tower57 would be able to run ?


OS4 for SAM460 and follow these instructions: http://zero.eik.bme.hu/~balaton/qemu/amiga/

Did not try this myself (only quick AROS run).

You don´t need 3D to run Tower57, Amiga port is software rendered.

Any reason to use QEMU and not more mature WinUAE?

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g01df1sh 
Re: Qemu and os4
Posted on 1-May-2019 12:26:01
#3 ]
Super Member
Joined: 16-Apr-2009
Posts: 1660
From: UK

@pavlor

I could not get any 3d games to work in winuae

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pavlor 
Re: Qemu and os4
Posted on 1-May-2019 12:39:36
#4 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9010
From: Unknown

@g01df1sh

Quote:
I could not get any 3d games to work in winuae


Well, that is expectable, because WinUAE doesn´t support 3D with PowerPC emulation. QEMU is in the same boat in this regard.

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g01df1sh 
Re: Qemu and os4
Posted on 1-May-2019 13:08:25
#5 ]
Super Member
Joined: 16-Apr-2009
Posts: 1660
From: UK

@pavlor

Oh ok still waiting for the dam Tabor then Maybe 2020 then lol

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pavlor 
Re: Qemu and os4
Posted on 1-May-2019 13:26:32
#6 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9010
From: Unknown

@g01df1sh

Tabor has FPU crippled by design, so 3D games may work slowly. Better wait for benchmarks before purchase. I will do many benchmarks on Tabor, once I get my hands on it.

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g01df1sh 
Re: Qemu and os4
Posted on 1-May-2019 14:01:24
#7 ]
Super Member
Joined: 16-Apr-2009
Posts: 1660
From: UK

@pavlor

HI

I have heard all about the FPU issue I feel it has been over stated and performance will be ok.

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tlosm 
Re: Qemu and os4
Posted on 2-May-2019 10:08:23
#8 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2655
From: Amiga land

@g01df1sh

last qemu 4.0 have an overall down performances about 50% less in integer speed and same is in fpu. now on my 1950x dnet gave 8k keys and geekbench 450 points in result.

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billt 
Re: Qemu and os4
Posted on 2-May-2019 16:17:47
#9 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Oct-2003
Posts: 3123
From: Maryland, USA

@g01df1sh

It would be cool if the loader were clever enough to analyze the binary, and translate to appropriate FPU instructions as needed into memory before beginning execution. I have no idea how reasonable that is to accomplish in real world, or if it would be reasonable speed or very slow to load and start.

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broadblues 
Re: Qemu and os4
Posted on 3-May-2019 11:31:04
#10 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4398
From: Portsmouth England

@billt

That's what the "trampoline" emulation refered in Trevors interview does:

https://www.exec.pl/article.jsp?nid=189&Amiga_present_and_future:_interview_with_Trevor_Dickinson

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Georg 
Re: Qemu and os4
Posted on 3-May-2019 12:51:55
#11 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 14-May-2003
Posts: 440
From: Unknown

@broadblues

Quote:
That's what the "trampoline" emulation refered in Trevors interview does:


If so it's probably not safe, because even if on PPC situation is better than on 68k, it's probably still possible that exes or libs have data inside code/text section (like code written in assembly or maybe with other C compilers or maybe other languages like Pascal) and the emulation may end up trying to patch a trampoline into a place it is not supposed to do, because it's data, not code.


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thellier 
Re: Qemu and os4
Posted on 3-May-2019 13:21:21
#12 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2009
Posts: 256
From: Paris

@Georg

I think that what does "trampoline" is more a "trap and patch" feature: I mean the unknow FPU opcode give an exception that is trapped to some code that will patch the coupable opcode to new code.


Alain

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billt 
Re: Qemu and os4
Posted on 9-May-2019 2:36:52
#13 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Oct-2003
Posts: 3123
From: Maryland, USA

@pavlor

How can one make a hardfile to install onto?


Could not open option rom 'u-boot-sam460-20100605.bin': No such file or directory

Last edited by billt on 09-May-2019 at 02:59 AM.

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tlosm 
Re: Qemu and os4
Posted on 9-May-2019 12:26:06
#14 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2655
From: Amiga land

@billt

if i good remeber the uboot for sam is inserted into the source and not need to be loaded from external command.
about hardfile you have to make it like all the qemu virtual hd with qemu-img
https://linux.die.net/man/1/qemu-img

if you need some more info you can see in the thread
https://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=42068&forum=33&start=260&viewmode=flat&order=0#818460

Last edited by tlosm on 09-May-2019 at 12:28 PM.

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broadblues 
Re: Qemu and os4
Posted on 9-May-2019 23:53:36
#15 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4398
From: Portsmouth England

@Georg

Quote:

Georg wrote:
@broadblues

Quote:
That's what the "trampoline" emulation refered in Trevors interview does:


If so it's probably not safe, because even if on PPC situation is better than on 68k, it's probably still possible that exes or libs have data inside code/text section (like code written in assembly or maybe with other C compilers or maybe other languages like Pascal) and the emulation may end up trying to patch a trampoline into a place it is not supposed to do, because it's data, not code.




Doesn't matter what language it's wriiten by the times it's in an executable is binary machine code.

Problrmatic programs could be blacklisted just as with petunia JIT for 68k

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broadblues 
Re: Qemu and os4
Posted on 9-May-2019 23:54:38
#16 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4398
From: Portsmouth England

@thellier

No it's not.

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Hypex 
Re: Qemu and os4
Posted on 11-May-2019 6:04:22
#17 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 9626
From: Greensborough, Australia

@thellier

In an ELF that OS4 uses the code and data sections tend to be cleanly separated so there shouldn't be any cross over. But modifying the code would be considered self modifying code and to my knowledge trying to do so would crash as code would be considered read only like a ROM.

It's possible to write an exception handler to handle these "illegal" op codes and then to simulate the operation. Each code causing an exception would have some overhead as apart from the operation needing to be simulated the registers context would need to be saved in memory before the exception handler and then restored afterwards.

This could be extended to patch on demand or patch at load time with substitute instructions. This would speed up operations and especially with pre-run patching. But these still present problems as in some cases it wouldn't be possible to replace one exact opcode with another one directly in place. If there was no direct substitute and it needed more instructions to perform the operation. I don't know if FPU to SPE conversion has these issues.

Last edited by Hypex on 11-May-2019 at 06:07 AM.

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Georg 
Re: Qemu and os4
Posted on 11-May-2019 7:05:23
#18 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 14-May-2003
Posts: 440
From: Unknown

@broadblues

Quote:
Doesn't matter what language it's wriiten by the times it's in an executable is binary machine code.


If the binary machine code is intermixed with data (as said maybe depending on compiler, hand written asm, different language: that may be so), then at load time it's difficult to distinguish executable code (which may be patched/trampoline'd) from data (which may not be trampoline'd).

For example (68k, as I don't really know PPC):

source:

func1:
moveq #0,d0
rts

data:
dc.w $4e75

func2:
moveq #1,d0
rts

binary machine code:

0x7000
0x4e75
0x4e75
0x7001
0x4e75

How do you know at load time that the second 0x4e75 is data (that you may not patch/trampoline) and not code, if you wanted to patch/trampoline all rts operations of an exe/lib.

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AmiDog 
Re: Qemu and os4
Posted on 13-May-2019 14:03:32
#19 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2004
Posts: 917
From: Kumla, Sweden

@Georg

While you could happily intermix code and data back in the good old days, any OS which concerns itself with security and stability will only allow execution of program segments which has been marked as code and thus are meant to be executed. Likewise, the OS will not allow writing to segements which are marked as code or read-only data.

Yes, you could force read-only data to be put in a code segment, but you would likely have to take extra steps in order to achieve that as I doubt any compiler would do that by default. It's also bad to intermix code and data when working with a CPU with separate instruction and data caches. Having the same areas getting cached in both caches will be a waste.

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broadblues 
Re: Qemu and os4
Posted on 13-May-2019 18:46:06
#20 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4398
From: Portsmouth England

@Georg

Nobody writes code like this for AmigaOS4, so whilst that is a theoretical problem, it's very much an edge case. Programs like that would simpley be blacklisted and fall back onto the trap based fp emulation.

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