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ferrels 
Re: Interviews with Hyperion and MorphOS teams coming so get your questions in
Posted on 20-May-2019 1:38:01
#61 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 784
From: Arizona

@BigD

Quote:
@_Steve_ Quote: The PC already had a foothold by 1993/4. That was true in terms of market share and networking ability in higher education and the work space but there was simply no reason for C= to have lost the home computing market so easily. As I say most PeeCees sold in the mid 90s were appalling with MS Works installed etc and an Amiga produced far better results and was easier to use than Windows 95. Even me attempting Amiga-like multi-tasking usage on my house mate's PC at Uni in 2003 destroyed his Windows 95 system and the hard drive was not salvagable. I simply tried to run a few programs at the same time and it never recovered! They were buggy slow monstrousities compared to an equivalent Amiga!


You seem to be conveniently forgetting that Commodore folded in 1992 and many home and office Amiga-users boxed up their Amigas and left the scene entirely shortly thereafter. I was one of those users. They did so because they rightfully understood that there would be no new Amiga hardware offerings or OS enhancements. And the writing had been on the wall for quite some time so many people had already been researching alternatives to their Amigas prior to Commodore's demise. Home AND office users didn't want to be left with an orphaned system so they migrated to PCs and Macs. They also understood that software developers would abandon the Amiga and develop for systems where they could actually continue to make decent livings, and the Amiga wasn't it. Most Amiga users understood that there would be no more groundbreaking software developed for the Amiga once it had been orphaned.

Maybe your experience with PCs in the mid-90 was terrible but I would also say that your experience was an anomaly. For the vast majority of home and office users, the PC experience was a positive one. Windows 3.0 was released in May of 1990 and was a huge improvement over MS-DOS with its GUI. It also had a huge library of very capable native GUI apps and maintained backward compatibility with MS-DOS. Windows 3.1 was released in April of 1992. Windows 3.11 was released in Dec. of 1993 and added networking capabilities.

The release of Windows in 1990, and the release of games such as Doom in 1993, and the fact that the Mac had already been around since 1984 pretty much sealed the fate of the Amiga in both the office and home markets.....that and Commodore's lack of vision.

And by 1992, there simply was NOT an "equivalent Amiga" when compared to PCs. The 486-66Mhz was released in 1992 and it ran rings around ANY stock Amiga and most accelerated Amigas at that time. None of the PCs that I owned or used at my office were slow OR buggy, nor were they monstrosities.....they were in fact smaller than the A2000's that I owned and quite a bit more capable in terms of horsepower AND usefulness as there was no CAD software for the Amiga that could hold a candle to AutoCAD nor any Amiga office software that could compete with MS Office. By 1992, MS Office was already at version 3.0 and include Word 2.0c, Excel 4.0, PowerPoint 3.0, Mail 3.0 and if you shopped around you could even get it bundled for free with your new PC.

So yes, there were many reasons for Commodore losing the home market. You just seem to have missed most of them.

Last edited by ferrels on 20-May-2019 at 01:53 AM.
Last edited by ferrels on 20-May-2019 at 01:44 AM.

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BigD 
Re: Interviews with Hyperion and MorphOS teams coming so get your questions in
Posted on 20-May-2019 1:50:38
#62 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 4827
From: UK

@ferrels

Quote:
And by 1992, there simply was NOT an "equivalent Amiga" when compared to PCs. The 486-66Mhz was released in 1992 and it ran rings around ANY stock Amiga and most accelerated Amigas at that time. None of the PCs that I owned or used at my office were slow OR buggy, nor were they monstrosities.....they were in fact smaller than the A2000's that I owned and quite a bit more capable in terms of horsepower AND usefulness as there was no CAD software for the Amiga that could hold a candle to AutoCAD nor any Amiga office software that could compete with MS Office.


I fail to see how people were productive and/or happy with Windows 95 never mind 3.1 unless they'd only ever used MS-DOS. I never got caught up in old MS-DOS programs and hence the backwards compatibility thing was never a hook to get Windows 3.1. Amigas were full colour multi tasking with good productivity software and games earlier than the PC could muster them. In the home market it was Commodore's to lose.

And to clarify Commodore "wound up" in 1994 not 1992! You seem to be forgetting that the A1200 was the second best selling Amiga and yet you dismiss C= before it was released! Are you for real?

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ferrels 
Re: Interviews with Hyperion and MorphOS teams coming so get your questions in
Posted on 20-May-2019 2:18:06
#63 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 784
From: Arizona

@BigD

Quote:
Quote: And by 1992, there simply was NOT an "equivalent Amiga" when compared to PCs. The 486-66Mhz was released in 1992 and it ran rings around ANY stock Amiga and most accelerated Amigas at that time. None of the PCs that I owned or used at my office were slow OR buggy, nor were they monstrosities.....they were in fact smaller than the A2000's that I owned and quite a bit more capable in terms of horsepower AND usefulness as there was no CAD software for the Amiga that could hold a candle to AutoCAD nor any Amiga office software that could compete with MS Office. I fail to see how people were productive and/or happy with Windows 95 never mind 3.1 unless they'd only ever used MS-DOS. I never got caught up in old MS-DOS programs and hence the backwards compatibility thing was never a hook to get Windows 3.1. Amigas were full colour multi tasking with good productivity software and games earlier than the PC could muster them. In the home market it was Commodore's to lose. And to clarify Commodore "wound up" in 1994 not 1992! You seem to be forgetting that the A1200 was the second best selling Amiga and yet you dismiss C= before it was released! Are you for real?


Yes, you are correct in the 1994 date (my bad), but this makes your argument even weaker. Just as _Steve_ mentioned earlier, the PC had a foothold on both the office and home environments by 1992. And as a software developer I actually ran benchmarks of my A1200 equipped with a 68030 CPU clocked at 50Mhz against my PCs. The PCs won hands down because they were equipped with the Pentium P5 which had been released in 1993. My A1200 with an 030 clocked at 50Mhz performed on par with a 486-33Mhz which by 1994 was already woefully obsolete in terms of performance. I wasn't about to pull my accelerator card out of my A1200 and waste my time benchmarking it with its stock 68020 against anything current, because I already knew those answers.

Just because the A1200 was the second best selling system produced by Commodore is meaningless. It was also orphaned with everything else Commodore. Commodore folded and people boxed up their Amigas, including their A1200s, for all the same reasons I mentioned earlier. So yes, I 'm quite real.

And no, Amigas were not capable of full color without expensive add-ons. They were hobbled by a very slow HAM mode of 4096 colors and limited resolution, while my circa 1994 PCs were capable of 32-bit color or 16777216 colors with transparency at 1280x1024 and higher. My PCs also didn't need flicker fixers or other expensive hardware add-ons to use Hi-Res screens. The interlace flicker and slow-downs associated with using higher-than-stock resolutions on an Amiga brought Amigas to a crawl and fried your eyeballs at the same time from the interlace flicker.

So yeah, by 1992, the writing was on the wall and it wasn't much longer before Commodore was so far behind the competition that they could no longer compete and threw in the towel in 94.

Last edited by ferrels on 20-May-2019 at 03:23 AM.
Last edited by ferrels on 20-May-2019 at 02:22 AM.

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hth313 
Re: Interviews with Hyperion and MorphOS teams coming so get your questions in
Posted on 20-May-2019 3:19:16
#64 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 29-May-2018
Posts: 131
From: Delta, Canada

@BigD

Quote:

I fail to see how people were productive and/or happy with Windows 95 never mind 3.1 unless they'd only ever used MS-DOS. [...]


That was indeed my experience. The people I met during this time that liked Windows were coming from MS-DOS. They had absolutely no clue whatsoever about anything else. I basically only met one exception to this, he was a Mac guy who liked gaming and eventually switched to PC, probably around second half of 1990.

I was using a Sun workstation hooked up to a small hardware for debugging over the serial port. The comment I got from one of the PC dev guys was, how do you do it? He could not imagine that a UNIX workstation could have a normal serial port. A UNIX workstation was totally alien to him, so it naturally had to be totally odd in all aspects.

Another PC inbred commented that as PC machines were getting faster, it was no longer a need to use UNIX...!

One day I met a developer was sitting on the floor in the corridor, with her PC on the floor in her own room by the door and another PC in the room by the door on the other side of the corridor (that dev was absent for a while). She used two computers and I asked what she was doing. The reply? - I can do two things at a time, it is practical!

Now I just feel like running around the general area here and scream.. OMG

Last edited by hth313 on 20-May-2019 at 03:19 AM.

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bison 
Re: Interviews with Hyperion and MorphOS teams coming so get your questions in
Posted on 20-May-2019 3:46:06
#65 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1299
From: N-Space

@OlafS25

Quote:
I know the answer

no and no ;)

That would be my guess as well. AmigaOS is possible, but Hyperion doesn't seem interested:

https://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=42257&forum=33&start=80#806041

MorphOS is probably too busy with their amd64 port. Still, it will be interesting to hear the "official" answers.

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bison 
Re: Interviews with Hyperion and MorphOS teams coming so get your questions in
Posted on 20-May-2019 4:02:58
#66 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1299
From: N-Space

@_Steve_

Quote:
The PC already had a foothold by 1993/4.

Yes, that was the inflection point. I was working in tech support for a large PC manufacture from 92 to 95, and the customer base really changed a lot in that three year period. In 92 most of our customers were either businesses or serious hobbyists. By 1995 there were a lot of first-time home users buying systems, which really put a strain on tech support. A lot of people bought 486s just so they could play Doom. Doom turned out to be the "killer app" that PC Magazine was always theorizing was going to change the PC industry.

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ferrels 
Re: Interviews with Hyperion and MorphOS teams coming so get your questions in
Posted on 20-May-2019 4:15:36
#67 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 784
From: Arizona

@hth313

Quote:
I was using a Sun workstation hooked up to a small hardware for debugging over the serial port. The comment I got from one of the PC dev guys was, how do you do it? He could not imagine that a UNIX workstation could have a normal serial port. A UNIX workstation was totally alien to him, so it naturally had to be totally odd in all aspects.


The average consumer couldn't afford a Sun Workstation in the 90's. Most of them cost in excess of $10,000 USD at that time so it should not have been a surprise to you that the home users as well as many office users had never used anything other than a Mac or a PC. Even in 1994, a Sparcstation 5 was $12,500 not including the monitor, keyboard or printer.

And by the way, even Windows 3.0 which was released in 1990 supported multi-tasking. Thankfully Sun went out of business too. The hardware was absurdly priced and by the late 90's, CPUs created by Intel outperformed Sun systems in raw horsepower as well as price. Even Sun tried to make the switch to Intel in order to remain relevant with their LX50 in 2002, but even that failed because they stuck stubbornly to their old pricing model. They were selling x86 PC's at boutique prices with a Sun badge.....no thanks. They then went on the make the Sun Fire series whose selling point was that it also ran Windows or Linux...again at boutique prices, so business managers rightfully bought PCs instead at 1/3 the price of Sun's competing products.

We had a Sparcstation running AutoCAD at my office and it was great for that. It was roughly twice as fast as our 486-66Mhz systems at the time, but unfortunately, that's about all it was good for. Our company needed systems that could not only be used for CAD, but also for software development and office tasks and the systems that fit that bill were all PCs. We developed CAD and mapping software for the civil engineering community and by the mid 90's, over 90% of our clientele had also transitioned to PC's.

Like it or not, AMD/Intel/Windows won. Mac came in second and Linux was/is a sad 3rd. It may come as a surprise to you, but most of the world doesn't use Linux or OpenSolaris and they get along just fine.

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hth313 
Re: Interviews with Hyperion and MorphOS teams coming so get your questions in
Posted on 20-May-2019 4:38:10
#68 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 29-May-2018
Posts: 131
From: Delta, Canada

@ferrels

Quote:

ferrels wrote:
The average consumer couldn't afford a Sun Workstation in the 90's. Most of them cost in excess of $10,000 USD at that time so it should not have been a surprise to you that the home users as well as many office users had never used anything other than a Mac or a PC. Even in 1994, a Sparcstation 5 was $12,500 not including the monitor, keyboard or printer.


I am talking about university educated people with long and relevant education, sigh... not the average consumer here..

Machines that could do one thing at a time vs machines that did not lock up when given a single build task. I know we had too low salary as they could waste people's time like that.


Quote:

Like it or not, AMD/Intel/Windows won. Mac came in second and Linux was/is a sad 3rd. It may come as a surprise to you, but most of the world doesn't use Linux or OpenSolaris and they get along just fine.


Sorry to burst your dream, UNIX won. Linux is UNIX, BSD is UNIX, macOS is UNIX and now Windows will have a proper UNIX inside it too, coming in June.

UNIX is everywhere, it finally won!

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JimIgou 
Re: Interviews with Hyperion and MorphOS teams coming so get your questions in
Posted on 20-May-2019 17:02:35
#69 ]
Member
Joined: 30-May-2018
Posts: 97
From: Unknown

@hth313

Quote:
I am talking about university educated people with long and relevant education, sigh... not the average consumer here..


Steve IS educated, and he's makig some really good points.

I worked for a company that built 68K based systems (as well as selling pre-built X86 systems).
From 8 Mhz to 50 Mhz, we soundly trounced X86.

In fact, until the i386 was introduced, X86 wasn't really able to recompile some of the code we were writing.

Win 3.0 made me VERY uncomfortable when I was given a beta copy of it by IBM, because the average consmer could teach himself how to use a system equipped with it.

Win95, with improved DOS/Windows integration was even better.

And the NT kernel used for XP, scrapping DOS, completed that transition.

Skipping back, his point on the Pentium is significant.

68K goes up to 50 or 60 MHz, you can push it to 75, possibly a little higher especially on those with disabled MMUs.

But the Pentium was introduced at those speeds and rapidly climbed up to 233MHz (BTW - The PIII at 1.4 GHz was pretty cool, too).

I keep some Socket7 processors around just to remind myself of how well the final P5s (and their competitors) ran.

And I've pushed an AMD K6-III+ to 612MHz, before moving to the Athlon.
Also, while I'm typing this on an i5 laptop, I'll soon be moving to Zen2.
AMD always surprises me. Like producing Socket 7 processors with over twice the clock speed of the last P5, Athlon 64 cpus that made the P4 look like an embarassing mistake, and now Zen which is competitive AND affordable. But I digress with fanboy BS.

Power9 COULD be competitive with X64, BUT its not aimmed at the consumer market.
And it draws a bit too much power.

So, PPC are a dying issue, what do you do?

Even an OS without a commercial market, aimmed soley at hobyists, like MorphOS?
You move to X64.

And even then, you don't pretend you can compete with companies that employ HUNDREDS of programmers to create their OS.

Dead, living dead, hobbyists just enjoying carrying forward our favorite hardware and API?
Who cares? I'm just enjoying myself, but I have no pretence.

If we were serious, we'd need a much larger market, deep pockets for development, and systems based on modern processors like X64 or Power9.

Not happening.

You may not like Ferrels, you may not like what he has to say, BUT he's right.

Quote:
UNIX is everywhere, it finally won!


Pity the micro kernel variants weren't the real winners in this war, because the Linux kernel is messy monstrosity.
And it took decades to gain control of this type of OS from commercial interests, even though most UNIX development occured in colleges and universities and was financed by our tax dollars and a subsidiary of one of the few legal monopolies, Bell Labs.

Last edited by JimIgou on 21-May-2019 at 01:45 AM.
Last edited by JimIgou on 20-May-2019 at 05:30 PM.
Last edited by JimIgou on 20-May-2019 at 05:09 PM.

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_Steve_ 
Re: Interviews with Hyperion and MorphOS teams coming so get your questions in
Posted on 20-May-2019 23:56:27
#70 ]
Team Member
Joined: 18-Oct-2002
Posts: 6737
From: UK

@ferrels

Quote:

ferrels wrote:
@BigD

Quote:
@_Steve_ Quote: The PC already had a foothold by 1993/4. That was true in terms of market share and networking ability in higher education and the work space but there was simply no reason for C= to have lost the home computing market so easily. As I say most PeeCees sold in the mid 90s were appalling with MS Works installed etc and an Amiga produced far better results and was easier to use than Windows 95. Even me attempting Amiga-like multi-tasking usage on my house mate's PC at Uni in 2003 destroyed his Windows 95 system and the hard drive was not salvagable. I simply tried to run a few programs at the same time and it never recovered! They were buggy slow monstrousities compared to an equivalent Amiga!


You seem to be conveniently forgetting that Commodore folded in 1992 and many home and office Amiga-users boxed up their Amigas and left the scene entirely shortly thereafter. I was one of those users.


Actually, while in the US that may have been the case, in Europe (and especially the UK) it wasn't. Commodore UK remained in business until 1994 when it finally closed it's doors - so no, I didn't conveniently forget anything, it was just different this side of the Atlantic.

Edit - just noticed your quote originally wasn't aimed at me - just a weird quoting issue when you responded to BigD.

Last edited by _Steve_ on 21-May-2019 at 12:00 AM.

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clusteruk 
Re: Interviews with Hyperion and MorphOS teams coming so get your questions in
Posted on 23-May-2019 6:34:27
#71 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Nov-2008
Posts: 1518
From: Marston Moretaine, England

@K-L

Quote:
by K-L on 18-May-2019 8:51:48 @Thread Are all those posts the questions that must be asked ?


Not sure how many questions I am getting from this thread, but please remember, email them or they do not get asked, so far I have quite a few good ones

Last edited by clusteruk on 23-May-2019 at 06:35 AM.

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number6 
Re: Interviews with Hyperion and MorphOS teams coming so get your questions in
Posted on 23-May-2019 16:46:20
#72 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 10529
From: In the village

@clusteruk

Have you posted the premise/content from post #1 to the home websites of both groups?

#6

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Birbo 
Re: Interviews with Hyperion and MorphOS teams coming so get your questions in
Posted on 25-Jun-2019 13:38:16
#73 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Apr-2007
Posts: 538
From: Zurich, Switzerland

@clusteruk

any news?

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