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      /  New Amiga Pegasos II QEMU board project
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PosterThread
Fl@sh 
New Amiga Pegasos II QEMU board project
Posted on 9-Jun-2019 6:46:00
#1 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 6-Oct-2004
Posts: 108
From: Napoli - Italy

Meantime finally some new Amiga hardware is being to be released, Vampire stand alone 68k and (maybe) Tabor PPC boards, another opportunity is given virtualizing old Amiga Pegasos 2 board under QEMU and let it be fault free and than immortal!

Balaton Zoltan, after the creation of Sam460ex QEMU board compatible with Amiga OS4 and Linux OS, has launched a new site about this new project, calling all Amiga lovers and programmes to help him in building the new Pegasos 2 virtual board http://qmiga.osdn.io/

If you are owner of an old powermac, you will be able to run Amiga OS 4 at full speed using QEMU/KVM. The Pegasos 2 used G3/G4 book3s PPC cpus, the same present on Powermacs/Powerbooks. So the emulation will be changed in virtualization, letting CPU instrucions to executed in native mode under QEMU and KVM.

I hope there will be some skilled programmers interested in this project, letting next gen Amiga to be immortal, just like UAE did with old 68k gen.

Last edited by Fl@sh on 09-Jun-2019 at 06:51 AM.
Last edited by Fl@sh on 09-Jun-2019 at 06:50 AM.
Last edited by Fl@sh on 09-Jun-2019 at 06:48 AM.
Last edited by Fl@sh on 09-Jun-2019 at 06:47 AM.

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Fl@sh 
Re: New Amiga Pegasos II QEMU board project
Posted on 12-Jun-2019 5:58:59
#2 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 6-Oct-2004
Posts: 108
From: Napoli - Italy

@Fl@sh

..really no one is interested in such project ?

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tlosm 
Re: New Amiga Pegasos II QEMU board project
Posted on 12-Jun-2019 6:27:06
#3 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2648
From: Amiga land

@Fl@sh

i dont think there are in the comunity any more skilled devs interested in this. who was interested i think contact zoltan in past and stay in touch with him right now too.(i hope). i hope only in new people that are outside the amigaworld comunity.

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Fl@sh 
Re: New Amiga Pegasos II QEMU board project
Posted on 12-Jun-2019 8:29:17
#4 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 6-Oct-2004
Posts: 108
From: Napoli - Italy

@tlosm

A lot of amigans are still waiting for release of new obsolete and expensive hardware
..I hope, maybe one day, they will understand today we can have cheaper and faster virtualized (or emulated) hardware on any current gen x86-ppc-arm host.

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wawa 
Re: New Amiga Pegasos II QEMU board project
Posted on 12-Jun-2019 10:48:56
#5 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6162
From: Unknown

@Fl@sh

Quote:
A lot of amigans are still waiting for release of new obsolete and expensive hardware


because they like to dream and hope. and discuss, what if. thats what they are only good at. and you want to take that away from them even that.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: New Amiga Pegasos II QEMU board project
Posted on 12-Jun-2019 22:29:19
#6 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11092
From: Norway

@Fl@sh

Maybe because G5 can give kind performance close to X5000, older mac system with only G4 will slower then what they are selling now, however it won't be bad to have option instead of waiting for tabour, that is taking forever.

the issue however is that as long as there are no native drivers for the hardware, you need to emulate hardware in software instead, and here is where you lose speed.

I have Virtual box on PC, i run x86 Linux on it but runs a lot slower then haveing linux installed normally. I have some experience with servers running HyperV virtual machines, the graphics feels unresponsive, even if the CPU speed and disk speed is not bad.

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Fl@sh 
Re: New Amiga Pegasos II QEMU board project
Posted on 14-Jun-2019 9:08:10
#7 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 6-Oct-2004
Posts: 108
From: Napoli - Italy

@NutsAboutAmiga

About cpu speed:
G5 is faster than X5000, expecially the Quad core clocked at 2.5GHz
Even an old Mac G4 should be faster than any Amiga One Xe or Pegasos I/II or Sam4xx, it have also altivec fully enabled.

About other hardware like video/audio:
Qemu can use Virtio tecnology to bypass everything and hit direcltly hardware without speed loss, just like KVM did on cpu side.

About correct use of virtual machines:
@tlosm is the best guy can explain it, it's part of his daily work

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Chain-Q 
Re: New Amiga Pegasos II QEMU board project
Posted on 14-Jun-2019 11:14:03
#8 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 31-Jan-2005
Posts: 817
From: Budapest, Hungary

@Fl@sh
What is the perceived advantage of emulating a Pegasos II over a Sam460? Because I don't really see any. Not in the amount anyway which would justify this effort.

Even if we're talking about virtualization rather than emulation on a PowerPC HW system, the Sam460's user level instruction set is just a subset of the G3/G4 instruction set, so you could just ran 99.999% of that code on a G3/G4/G5 anyway, and the supervisor level has to be mostly emulated/virtualized anyway, as the MMU is controlled by the host OS. You can probably even enable Altivec for the "fake" emulated CPU, as it doesn't matter that a real 460 doesn't have it... Unless something is hardwired in the OS not to use it, somewhere.

Everything else is just a matter of mocking up some PCI tree, and the OS should load the associated drivers, regardless of what's there on an actual Sam460 or Pegasos II.

Alternatively you could just run MorphOS on your PowerMac natively, it will be a lot faster and a lot less messy... *ducks and runs*

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kolla 
Re: New Amiga Pegasos II QEMU board project
Posted on 14-Jun-2019 11:37:34
#9 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1232
From: Trondheim, Norway

@Chain-Q

Well, the G5 I have is not supported by MorphOS, while Pegasos II is...

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Chain-Q 
Re: New Amiga Pegasos II QEMU board project
Posted on 14-Jun-2019 12:07:10
#10 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 31-Jan-2005
Posts: 817
From: Budapest, Hungary

@kolla
Quote:
Well, the G5 I have is not supported by MorphOS.

There's always a next hardware which MorphOS doesn't support, right?...

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ilbarbax 
Re: New Amiga Pegasos II QEMU board project
Posted on 14-Jun-2019 12:20:18
#11 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 17-Jan-2010
Posts: 167
From: Italy

Emulating why?

Is the best way to have the worst from both worlds. It is like to stay sit on a nice convertible car that it is transported by a lorry.

If I have to switch on a PC I use it with its own OS. I find unreasonable to use an emulated Amiga. Never used UAE.

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tlosm 
Re: New Amiga Pegasos II QEMU board project
Posted on 14-Jun-2019 12:28:30
#12 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2648
From: Amiga land

@kolla

Exactly ... the top will be have Morphos on a G5 Quad working on a pegasos2 kvm-pr-ized . And tthe same is for Os4 .

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thellier 
Re: New Amiga Pegasos II QEMU board project
Posted on 14-Jun-2019 13:08:19
#13 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2009
Posts: 253
From: Paris

@Fl@sh

>really no one is interested in such project ?

It is interesting but almost no one here is skilled enough in PPC asm kwnoweldge to help the QEMU team.

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tlosm 
Re: New Amiga Pegasos II QEMU board project
Posted on 14-Jun-2019 13:40:07
#14 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2648
From: Amiga land

@thellier

I think you are one that can help too with your great knowledge of GL you can for sure help virgl integration of warp3d.

Last edited by tlosm on 14-Jun-2019 at 01:41 PM.

_________________
I love Amiga and new hope by AmigaNG
A 500 + ; CDTV; CD32;
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MacBook Pro Retina I7 2.3ghz;
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geit 
Re: New Amiga Pegasos II QEMU board project
Posted on 14-Jun-2019 14:38:29
#15 ]
Member
Joined: 20-May-2006
Posts: 90
From: Germany


Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
@Fl@sh

Maybe because G5 can give kind performance close to X5000, older mac system with only G4 will slower then what they are selling now, however it won't be bad to have option instead of waiting for tabour, that is taking forever..


The 2001 G4 933Mhz Mac is around twice as fast as a PegasosII (The real one. In emulation they would be the same.)

However. Do not underestimate the AltiVec unit missing on the X5000. It may not be a problem on OS4, but MorphOS utilizes this CPU component quite heavy and you notice the lack of it in many ways due unexpected slowness. Especially if you are used to have it silently working in the background. You even can feel that even when coming from an 2001 900Mhz PowerMac to the X5000.

As said before by chainq. There is a board emulated. Why not invest time to improve that emulation instead of creating yet another virtual board, which is basically the same again. Speedwise it will be more or less the same and virtual hardware wise you can adapt/fake improvments in software.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: New Amiga Pegasos II QEMU board project
Posted on 14-Jun-2019 16:27:04
#16 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11092
From: Norway

@geit

Quote:
The 2001 G4 933Mhz Mac is around twice as fast as a PegasosII (The real one. In emulation they would be the same.)



how is that possible, way is the Pagasos II so slow, and what makes the Mac G4 so fast?
what is the difference.

and way not just install MorphOS on the Mac G4 if that is the case? why waste time on emulation that never be as good as the real thing?

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 14-Jun-2019 at 08:36 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 14-Jun-2019 at 04:27 PM.

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Fl@sh 
Re: New Amiga Pegasos II QEMU board project
Posted on 14-Jun-2019 16:35:05
#17 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 6-Oct-2004
Posts: 108
From: Napoli - Italy

@geit

Quote:

As said before by chainq. There is a board emulated. Why not invest time to improve that emulation instead of creating yet another virtual board, which is basically the same again. Speedwise it will be more or less the same and virtual hardware wise you can adapt/fake improvments in software.


If you refer to Sam460ex qemu board it's working quite well in emulation.
The major issue is due the incompatibility with KVM for virtualization under Powermacs boards, it lacks of altivec unit too.
Switching to a new Pegasos II qemu board you gain a full virtualization without speed penality on powermacs (and powerbooks), you got also altivec unit and a complete compatibility with morphos too.

Under KVM cpu guest must be equal to cpu host, otherwise you loose virtualization (on mentioned ppc hardware) and have to go with emulation and a very huge speed loss.

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Fl@sh 
Re: New Amiga Pegasos II QEMU board project
Posted on 14-Jun-2019 17:04:50
#18 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 6-Oct-2004
Posts: 108
From: Napoli - Italy

@thellier

Quote:

It is interesting but almost no one here is skilled enough in PPC asm kwnoweldge to help the QEMU team.


You don't need any knowledge of ppc assembler, you need only to know C language and how to manage hardware in qemu manner.. If you look inside sam640ex board and others you'll see there are few code lines in plain C code.
The hard part is to learn how Qemu works and how code in C chipset hardware.
The best way to learn is to look inside source code of others programmers involed in project and follow qemu developers mailing lists.

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Trekiej 
Re: New Amiga Pegasos II QEMU board project
Posted on 15-Jun-2019 17:04:54
#19 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 17-Oct-2006
Posts: 684
From: Unknown

edited by me


Last edited by Trekiej on 15-Jun-2019 at 05:24 PM.

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billt 
Re: New Amiga Pegasos II QEMU board project
Posted on 21-Jun-2019 19:21:40
#20 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Oct-2003
Posts: 3104
From: Maryland, USA

@Fl@sh

I would love to see this!
I'm inerested in seeing this on Raptor Blackbird as well as Freescale dev boards for T2080 and T4240, as well as iBook G4...
I'm sorry that I would not be a productive contributor.

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