Click Here
home features news forums classifieds faqs links search
5670 members 
Amiga Q&A /  Free for All /  Emulation /  Gaming / (Latest Posts)
Login

Nickname

Password

Lost Password?

Don't have an account yet?
Register now!

Support Amigaworld.net
Your support is needed and is appreciated as Amigaworld.net is primarily dependent upon the support of its users.
Donate

Menu
Main sections
» Home
» Features
» News
» Forums
» Classifieds
» Links
» Downloads
Extras
» OS4 Zone
» IRC Network
» AmigaWorld Radio
» Newsfeed
» Top Members
» Amiga Dealers
Information
» About Us
» FAQs
» Advertise
» Polls
» Terms of Service
» Search

IRC Channel
Server: irc.amigaworld.net
Ports: 1024,5555, 6665-6669
SSL port: 6697
Channel: #Amigaworld
Channel Policy and Guidelines

Who's Online
16 crawler(s) on-line.
 10 guest(s) on-line.
 0 member(s) on-line.



You are an anonymous user.
Register Now!
 OlafS25:  6 mins ago
 Bezzen:  15 mins ago
 Musashi5150:  22 mins ago
 LarsB:  28 mins ago
 Trixie:  34 mins ago
 AmiKit:  39 mins ago
 Derfs:  50 mins ago
 Frank:  52 mins ago
 BigD:  1 hr 14 mins ago
 Mufa:  1 hr 47 mins ago

/  Forum Index
   /  Amiga Development
      /  Getting outside programmers interested
Register To Post

Goto page ( 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 Next Page )
PosterThread
amigadave 
Getting outside programmers interested
Posted on 14-Sep-2019 6:48:35
#1 ]
Team Member
Joined: 18-Jul-2005
Posts: 1550
From: Lake Shastina, Northern Calif.

Okay, my previous thread regarding "Development Tools" educated me in a few ways, and I'm thankful for the members who posted comments in that thread. Instead of adding comments in that thread that might take it off topic, I decided to ask another question in this new thread.

First let me preface this question with a couple of facts that I think are self evident. The number of programmers who are proficient at coding for the Amiga API (any flavor, Classic 68k, or PPC NG, or AROS on any platform) has shrunk to a tiny fraction of what it once was, and the numbers continue to get smaller. This is due to two things, programmers losing interest, or no longer having time available to code for a platform that does not provide enough monetary return for their time spent, and the loss of programmers due to natural causes (they cease to exist in the form of a human that can write code for us to use).

So my question is this; how do we replace these programmers with new programmers? The usual thinking is that some may come from the Linux community, where there are programmers who are at least willing to look at alternative choices, but that is a hard sell, as Linux has so much more to offer in the way of hardware supported by drivers, and software available to run on Linux systems, not to mention more varied development tools (discussed in the other thread).

How can we keep the Amiga platform (in its many different forms now) from dying a slow and complete death, where there are nearly zero programmers who have the knowledge, and interest in creating new, or porting existing software to our community? Is it possible to get kids interested in a retro platform? I think not in many numbers, and specially not in North America, where the Amiga is almost completely forgotten by most computer users (or more accurately, never known by most computer users). Are we doomed to become only a group of ever smaller old people who fondly remember the legacy of the Amiga, with no chance of creating a new generation of computer users who have at least a partial interest in the Amiga?

Without new programmers, and new users, that is what will happen. We have already lost most of the talented programmers who were at one time interested in the Amiga community. What can be done to find "New Blood", to keep this community going in the future?

(Kind of makes all of the legal battles seem like a huge waste of time and money, doesn't it?)

_________________
"Amiga" - The computer that inspired people to invent and create!

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Samurai_Crow 
Re: Getting outside programmers interested
Posted on 14-Sep-2019 8:11:55
#2 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2003
Posts: 2162
From: Ft. Collins, Colorado, USA

@amigadave

Some guys just code on old hardware to show off what they can do. That's certainly the case with Michael V. Parent in France who is a professional game artist and the primary artist behind the upcoming Metro Siege game for a 1 MB A500 and compatible.

I don't know of anyone that will do the same for commodity hardware like the PPC AmigaOne series or MorphOS running on a PowerMac. The show-off factor for such relatively plain equipment is effectively nil. Such hardware only attracts ports from other platforms with similar specs.

About the only shining light I see for a NextGen platform is Hollywood. It's possible to write one applet and run it in the Hollywood Player virtual machine on any supported platform. Its only weaknesses are that the byte-code interpreter is slow on old hardware and that it requires a true-color capable graphics card. It will run code almost flawlessly on current Vampire systems though.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Getting outside programmers interested
Posted on 14-Sep-2019 9:22:29
#3 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11118
From: Norway

@amigadave

So my question is this; how do we replace these programmers with new programmers?

I think that’s not easy, but I like to see more amateurs active, because this people can become better, this is way I think Amos Kittens is important. And "AMOS 2" even if do feel that "AMOS 2" is breaking away, not using same source code and so on. But it most defiantly has some advantages too, it depends on how successful "AMOS 2" is promoted outside of the Amiga community. My impression is its going to be a hard sell, with GoDOT and other where easy to use development tools for games, like Game Maker and so on.

The problem however is that AMOS 2 developers are not automatically Amiga developers. Because what they will produce code for is a more advanced platform, getting kids of today to go back to coding AMOS Professional after coding AMOS 2, I doubt it. And "Amos 2" games won't run on AmigaOS unless Javascript / web browser problem is solved. So you need to back port it, this might be issue where have remove stuff, to make stuff run on a lot slower hardware, that is also not able to display 3d graphics.

More tragically the existing Amos Professional programmer might decide to upgrade to AMOS 2 and now because developers for the web instead. Great for the developers because can make more money, bad for the Amiga platform because they stop making Amiga games.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 14-Sep-2019 at 09:49 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 14-Sep-2019 at 09:33 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 14-Sep-2019 at 09:32 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 14-Sep-2019 at 09:28 AM.

_________________
Please check out my software:
Excalibur, Basilisk 2, AmigaInputAnywhere.
LiveForIt-Music
http://lifeofliveforit.blogspot.no/

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
kamelito 
Re: Getting outside programmers interested
Posted on 14-Sep-2019 9:44:15
#4 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 26-Jul-2004
Posts: 699
From: Unknown

@amigadave

We need tools that generates executable to other platform so you could still deliver an app to the Amiga while making money elsewhere. The tools I guess should be available on Windows. I don’t speak about games because we already have the tools. Hollywood is a good candidate but I guess unknown to Windows devs. PortablE is nice too but ithe Windows version is behind others and we didn’t heard from Chris since a long time. On the MorphOS side someone started a wrapper to GTK but it is on hold. A wrapper could be done in two way I guess others OS to Amiga or Amiga to other OS API wise.

Last edited by kamelito on 14-Sep-2019 at 12:31 PM.
Last edited by kamelito on 14-Sep-2019 at 11:47 AM.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Zylesea 
Re: Getting outside programmers interested
Posted on 14-Sep-2019 11:58:30
#5 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 16-Mar-2004
Posts: 2148
From: Ostwestfalen, FRG

@amigadave

I think Amiga et al. is attractive to those programmers who have some intrinsic fun to code(i.e. not for money or career) and like a personal coupling to the user base.
If I program the gazillionth tool for Windows or Android and let it off at some site or play store I may get a few hundred or thousands or even thenthousands users, but they are probably random and unknown (I have got no feedback to my Android apps from a random Android user!).
Putting a binary to Aminet you get feedback (only little, but you get some feedback). And the overall tone is still rather positive.
In this regrad the small community has something to offer. Developers who care about such issues may see Amiga et al as a viable target.
Those seeking for money, fame and career (or those who care about nothing butonly the programming itself) rather not.

_________________
My programs: www.via-altera.de
MorphOS user since V0.4 (2001)

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
jPV 
Re: Getting outside programmers interested
Posted on 14-Sep-2019 14:34:29
#6 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 11-Apr-2005
Posts: 676
From: .fi

Quote:
kamelito wrote:
Hollywood is a good candidate but I guess unknown to Windows devs.

We could try to make it more known to mainstream audience. I bet many of them would like it too if they'd just know about it. So, try to spread word outside of our own circles!

But generally speaking I'm afraid you can't attract outside programmers no matter what you would try if they aren't otherwise interested about the platform. You could get some to try, but getting them to stay with long-span support... naah.

I think it'd just be best to present our platforms and try to get more users interested generally. If a new user happens to be a programmer, then we get one. But getting programmers just support our platforms without being otherwise interested... not going to happen.

Last edited by jPV on 14-Sep-2019 at 02:46 PM.

_________________
- The wiki based MorphOS Library - Your starting point for MorphOS
- Software made by jPV^RNO

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
bison 
Re: Getting outside programmers interested
Posted on 14-Sep-2019 16:16:03
#7 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1412
From: N-Space

@amigadave

I'm proficient with C programming on Linux/Unix, and I have 30-year-old memories of learning to program on an Amiga. I have been trying to get interested in programming on new Amiga systems for years, but there are at least three major problems:

1. The hardware is obscure and expensive, which means the user base is very small, which means that it's not really worth the time writing software for the system. Rpi might be a solution.

2. The system software is owned by a company that seems more interesting in suing people than writing software. AROS might be a solution.

3. The tool chain is old and proprietary. The GNU or BSD tool chain might be a solution.

_________________
"Unix is supposed to fix that." -- Jay Miner

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Getting outside programmers interested
Posted on 14-Sep-2019 16:35:24
#8 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11118
From: Norway

@bison

Quote:
2. The system software is owned by a company that seems more interesting in suing people than writing software. AROS might be a solution.


The worst thing you do is wait, pick one, start coding.

Who cares who CLOANTO sues, yes it shame that they are only interested in emulators.

Naturally if you pirate software, and distribute copyrighted files without consent you will be sued, sooner or later.

Quote:
3. The tool chain is old and proprietary. The GNU or BSD tool chain might be a solution.


Wrong we do use GCC / makefiles like Linux does, but AmigaOS is no Linux OS, and so GNU stuff might work or it might be some what broken. this way some peaple are using cross compilers. its same story for AROS, AmigaOS3.x and AmigaOS4.x as we all use more or less the same development kits.

(BSD is not so popular this days, everyone use some kind of Linux.)

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 14-Sep-2019 at 07:04 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 14-Sep-2019 at 04:48 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 14-Sep-2019 at 04:47 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 14-Sep-2019 at 04:45 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 14-Sep-2019 at 04:44 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 14-Sep-2019 at 04:41 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 14-Sep-2019 at 04:39 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 14-Sep-2019 at 04:36 PM.

_________________
Please check out my software:
Excalibur, Basilisk 2, AmigaInputAnywhere.
LiveForIt-Music
http://lifeofliveforit.blogspot.no/

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
AmigaMac 
Re: Getting outside programmers interested
Posted on 14-Sep-2019 18:46:54
#9 ]
Super Member
Joined: 26-Oct-2002
Posts: 1024
From: 3rd Rock from the Sun!

@amigadave

I personally think that you rally programmers from various platforms (not from the big 3: Mac, Windows, and Linux) and collaborate heavily on application development that benefits all involved. Imagine Amiga programmers working alongside programmers from the Atari, Haiku, and other such alternative/retro communities to develop and build application ecosystems. I know each platform has its own unique set of APIs that are not some POSIX like layer that carries across those platforms, but imagine building such a layer that could make porting apps from one platform to another possible. I think these small OS/hardware platform communities need to join forces for the common good of making them thrive.

_________________

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
bison 
Re: Getting outside programmers interested
Posted on 14-Sep-2019 19:39:54
#10 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1412
From: N-Space

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
The worst thing you do is wait, pick one, start coding.

I am coding... on Linux. I plan to stay there unless/until the situation on Amiga improves.

Quote:
Who cares who CLOANTO sues, yes it shame that they are only interested in emulators.

Naturally if you pirate software, and distribute copyrighted files without consent you will be sued, sooner or later.

I'm not taking the bait on that one!

Quote:
Wrong we do use GCC / makefiles like Linux does

Yes, but unless I'm mistaken you're using an ancient version of gcc.

Last edited by bison on 14-Sep-2019 at 07:45 PM.
Last edited by bison on 14-Sep-2019 at 07:43 PM.

_________________
"Unix is supposed to fix that." -- Jay Miner

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
kolla 
Re: Getting outside programmers interested
Posted on 15-Sep-2019 13:24:36
#11 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1292
From: Trondheim, Norway

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

(BSD is not so popular this days, everyone use some kind of Linux.)


Well, everything Apple sells is running BSD, but I suppose Apple products are not popular.

_________________
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Getting outside programmers interested
Posted on 15-Sep-2019 13:56:28
#12 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11118
From: Norway

@kolla

https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share

its only 6% of market its not popular.

So Linux most popular in the server market, the graph does show what developers use, becouse if it did, Linux will top MacOSX, I'm sure. (just image all stuff that has some kind of linux integerated in it.)

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 15-Sep-2019 at 02:06 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 15-Sep-2019 at 02:05 PM.

_________________
Please check out my software:
Excalibur, Basilisk 2, AmigaInputAnywhere.
LiveForIt-Music
http://lifeofliveforit.blogspot.no/

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
kolla 
Re: Getting outside programmers interested
Posted on 15-Sep-2019 14:48:50
#13 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1292
From: Trondheim, Norway

@NutsAboutAmiga

Looks more like 20%, both iOS and macOS are BSD based.

_________________
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
sTix 
Re: Getting outside programmers interested
Posted on 15-Sep-2019 22:02:22
#14 ]
Member
Joined: 22-Oct-2003
Posts: 69
From: Lund, Sweden

@amigadave

I agree, kids want shiny things so they won't be interested (yet). Linux developers aren't interested in alternative OS:es. Linux is very far from 'alternative' nowadays.

I think we should look for developers with 10-20 years of industrial experience that have become utterly disillusioned and bored. Perhaps we should scrape GitHub for suspects?

People that commit to weird projects during office hours

_________________

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
ferrels 
Re: Getting outside programmers interested
Posted on 15-Sep-2019 22:39:00
#15 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 825
From: Arizona

@amigadave

Quote:
First let me preface this question with a couple of facts that I think are self evident. The number of programmers who are proficient at coding for the Amiga API (any flavor, Classic 68k, or PPC NG, or AROS on any platform) has shrunk to a tiny fraction of what it once was, and the numbers continue to get smaller. This is due to two things, programmers losing interest, or no longer having time available to code for a platform that does not provide enough monetary return for their time spent, and the loss of programmers due to natural causes (they cease to exist in the form of a human that can write code for us to use).


To what end do you want to attract new programmers to a dead platform? Classic Amigas simply don't have the horsepower to run modern games and apps even if someone were to port them over from other platforms. The existing library of classic software pretty much covers all the bases when you're talking about apps and games and even some basic office applications. Even the Vampire, with its 68080 CPU running at ~200 MIPS is too slow to run a modern web browser. The only thing that's going to attract new coders is a revolutionary leap in hardware capabilities such as a CPU that runs at over 800 MIPS and 3D graphics.

Even the current crop of PPC Amigas are at best 10+ years behind current hardware in terms of performance. Programmers simply don't enjoy programming antique hardware using antique tools using an antique API. They want to code for the current hardware and hopefully generate some income to feed their families. Unless and until there is some decent hardware to attract development, all this talk about how to get outside programmers interested in the Amiga and its API is pointless.

The API is also part of the problem. There's no 64-bit support which is important in terms of memory access greater than the 1.5 or 2GB limit of OS4. There's also no process separation nor memory protection. Mainstream operating systems got these enhancements over 13 years ago. The API is also very primitive and quite difficult for coders to learn.

Quote:
How can we keep the Amiga platform (in its many different forms now) from dying a slow and complete death


The Amiga (both NG and classic) have been dead for years. There's not a single commercial software development house that creates anything for the Amiga. The last company to do so for classic Amigas was Marble Eyes Development and they went out of business in 1998 after releasing Genetic Species. Even that game was targeting the most powerful Amigas at that time which were 060 equipped. The Amiga isn't going to rise again from the ashes. It died in the 1990's and no amount of brainstorming or wishful thinking is going to change that. It's been relegated to the retro-hobby scene and that's were it will forever stay.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
ppcamiga1 
Re: Getting outside programmers interested
Posted on 16-Sep-2019 18:35:19
#16 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 126
From: Unknown

To get outside programmers interested, Amiga community have to provide something which:

1. work on cheap hardware
2. has memory protection
3. has unix compatibility
4. has good drivers
5. is open source

It should be something like Mac OS X - Amiga OS X with Amiga gui and graphics on top of unix.

How to get it?

AROS x86 and AROS ARM are worth nothing because they are not binary compatible with 68k software and have not memory protection.
AROS x86 and AROS ARM should be canceled.
Saved resources should be used to add 68k binary compatybility layer to AROS PPC.
It allows to find errors in zune and fix it.
After few years when zune will be worth of use, it can be ported to unix.
Then Amiga community will have something worth of use for outside developers.





 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
wawa 
Re: Getting outside programmers interested
Posted on 16-Sep-2019 19:43:06
#17 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6173
From: Unknown

@ppcamiga1

Quote:
AROS x86 and AROS ARM are worth nothing because they are not binary compatible with 68k software and have not memory protection.
AROS x86 and AROS ARM should be canceled.


it was repeatedly told that introducing memory protection does not comply with shared memory space which is a requirement to retain backwards compatibility. no matter what platform of aros, os4 or morphos, no amiga offshot is going to get it .

Quote:
Saved resources should be used to add 68k binary compatybility layer to AROS PPC.


aros ppc exists and worked here in qemu last i remembered. but the big endian arm target is much more likely to receive transparent 68k binary compatibility like morphos or os4.

Last edited by wawa on 16-Sep-2019 at 07:43 PM.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Samurai_Crow 
Re: Getting outside programmers interested
Posted on 16-Sep-2019 19:44:08
#18 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2003
Posts: 2162
From: Ft. Collins, Colorado, USA

@ppcamiga1

x86_64 and ARM AROS actually have as much memory protection as AmigaOS 4. Only 68k AROS lacks MMU support as standard. PPC AROS lacks a maintainer and appears to be almost discontinued except for a build-bot running on SAM 460.

ARM-EB AROS will probably displace PPC AROS outright because it is big-endian and will run on RasPi 4 while PPC machines are too expensive to compete.

Also noteworthy is that AROS and MorphOS require cache coherence while AmigaOS 4 doesn't so my MicroA1 can't run AROS, for example.

@thread
Running software on semi-modern hardware is too much like work. Retro is at least a challenge.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Lou 
Re: Getting outside programmers interested
Posted on 16-Sep-2019 19:44:09
#19 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 3976
From: Rhode Island

Port Mono
Run DotNetCore3.0 (it's open source)

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Samurai_Crow 
Re: Getting outside programmers interested
Posted on 16-Sep-2019 19:47:00
#20 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2003
Posts: 2162
From: Ft. Collins, Colorado, USA

@Lou

Mono is dependant on LLVM JIT. If we had LLVM running we could use WebAssembly on AROS runtimes and be cross architecture without .NET bloat.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Goto page ( 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 Next Page )

[ home ][ about us ][ privacy ] [ forums ][ classifieds ] [ links ][ news archive ] [ link to us ][ user account ]
Copyright (C) 2000 - 2019 Amigaworld.net.
Amigaworld.net was originally founded by David Doyle