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bison 
Re: Getting outside programmers interested
Posted on 16-Sep-2019 21:39:19
#21 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1441
From: N-Space

@amigadave

If you want better feedback, you should probably post this question on Linux forums where Linux developers are going to see it. I don't think you will get much in the way of constructive feedback from mainstream projects such as Gnome, but some of the smaller and/or more developer-oriented projects may provide useful information. Some suggestions, in alphabetical order:

https://forum.artixlinux.org

https://forums.gentoo.org

https://forum.mxlinux.org

https://www.raspbian.org/RaspbianForums

https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/forumdisplay.php?forumid=14

http://forum.tinycorelinux.net

https://voidlinux.org

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Rob 
Re: Getting outside programmers interested
Posted on 16-Sep-2019 22:51:13
#22 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 5823
From: S.Wales

@ferrels

Quote:
The Amiga (both NG and classic) have been dead for years. There's not a single commercial software development house that creates anything for the Amiga


Holding my Worthy box set as I type one handed.

Quote:
The last company to do so for classic Amigas was Marble Eyes Development and they went out of business in 1998 after releasing Genetic Species.


Funny that Napalm, T-Zero, Payback and a bunch of other games came after Genetic Species then.

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OldFart 
Re: Getting outside programmers interested
Posted on 17-Sep-2019 9:45:45
#23 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Sep-2004
Posts: 2925
From: Stad; en d'r is moar ain stad en da's Stad. Makkelk zat!

@Zylesea
Quote:
I think Amiga et al. is attractive to those programmers who have some intrinsic fun to code(i.e. not for money or career) and like a personal coupling to the user base.

You could be quite right there!

And yes, the drive from inside of the community is still awesome, albeit on the decline. And that makes it less of an anonymous community.

@jPV
Quote:
But generally speaking I'm afraid you can't attract outside programmers no matter what you would try if they aren't otherwise interested about the platform.

You too could be quite right there!

@bison
Quote:
1. The hardware is obscure and expensive, which means the user base is very small, which means that it's not really worth the time writing software for the system.
Now there's always a stick at hand to hit a dog.

Just getting started is the best way to carry on.

Quote:
2. The system software is owned by a company that seems more interesting in suing people than writing software. AROS might be a solution.
Now that's an argument! Or is it just anoyher stick? I dunno...

Quote:
3. The tool chain is old and proprietary. The GNU or BSD tool chain might be a solution.
So THAT's the reason so little people contribute. But hey, some do manage to work with that old set. This was stick #3, me thinks?

@AmigaMac
Quote:
Imagine Amiga programmers working alongside programmers from the Atari, Haiku, and other such alternative/retro communities to develop and build application ecosystems.
Imagine the horror of so many vastly different API's to cater for.

@sTix
Quote:
I agree, kids want shiny things so they won't be interested (yet). Linux developers aren't interested in alternative OS:es. Linux is very far from 'alternative' nowadays.
And you too could be very right there!

Quote:
I think we should look for developers with 10-20 years of industrial experience that have become utterly disillusioned and bored. Perhaps we should scrape GitHub for suspects?
Hear, hear! I like this way of thinking.The amount of tinkering involved could be a challenge for these people. Actually, it would not surprise me if a good number of these people has had access to Amiga in the past.

@ferrels
Quote:
To what end do you want to attract new programmers to a dead platform?
As per AmigaDave's request: please keep it positive!

Quote:
The API is also part of the problem. There's no 64-bit support which is important in terms of memory access greater than the 1.5 or 2GB limit of OS4.
.64 bit support might be beneficial to the parts that really bang the metal, like Exec and Dos and Intuition. For user programs 32 bit might be just ok. When memory is addressed by an unsigned 32 bit integer we might have the full 4Gb at our fingertips, but maybe this is not a possibillity.

Quote:
There's also no process separation nor memory protection.
Yet we got this far! Amazing, isn't it?

Quote:
The API is also very primitive and quite difficult for coders to learn.
'Alien' coders are probably not used to the amazing amount of shared libraries the Amiga sports. Access to the various parts of the documentation wiki might be upgraded, like providing every function with its own dedicated page, with the Table of Contents consisting of hyperlinks to those pages. Just an idea.


Quote:
The Amiga (both NG and classic) have been dead for years.
No they have not! Merely vastly sleeping, eagerly awaiting a new spring, a renaissence even!

@ppcamiga1
Quote:
1. work on cheap hardware
Yawn...
Quote:
2. has memory protection
Where did I hear that one before?
Quote:
3. has unix compatibility
Go Unix/Linux/BSD and Bill is your uncle! Raspberry Pi with Raspian? Really, really cheap harware.

@Samurai_Crow
Quote:
ARM-EB AROS will probably displace PPC AROS outright because it is big-endian and will run on RasPi 4 while PPC machines are too expensive to compete.
Now that is what I like, Amiga on a Rasp!

Quote:
Retro is at least a challenge.
The entire Amiga ecosystem is a challenge! I like it that way.

If you want to keep this small niche alive, then contribute, please! It's only for fun, but hey! great fun it is! Anyone can learn to code, but atmittedly some get to grips faster than others.
Sadly currently I cannot contribute due to the fact that my X5000 is in storage. I hope that in the foreseeable future room will there be again to actively code. I've got some ideas up my mind that form an irresistable challenge you know.

OldFart

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sTix 
Re: Getting outside programmers interested
Posted on 17-Sep-2019 10:30:36
#24 ]
Member
Joined: 22-Oct-2003
Posts: 69
From: Lund, Sweden

@bison

I really don't think that the Linux community is a good source if we want to attract developers.

Maybe, maybe someone could be interested in working on AROS hosted. Then they could keep on working with Linux, but with a slight twist that would benefit us.

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amigang 
Re: Getting outside programmers interested
Posted on 17-Sep-2019 11:24:41
#25 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2005
Posts: 1461
From: Cheshire, England

I agree the number of devs left is a little worring, I think hollywood is the current best solution to the probelm as if devs can make games or apps for amiga, mac, pc, android etc its make it worth there while.

I think another way around the lack of apps on Amiga is we just need a modern browser with the lastest stardands so it can run some of the cool HTML5 apps that have come out, google docs is a great office soultion now in the cloud, I seen great photo editiors, video editors and even 3d gaming is becoming more common in your browser. I know not many like working online or find this as a happy soultion to the problem but its one way around it.

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bison 
Re: Getting outside programmers interested
Posted on 17-Sep-2019 13:45:56
#26 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1441
From: N-Space

@sTix

Quote:
I really don't think that the Linux community is a good source if we want to attract developers.

I agree. As @amigadave said, it's a hard sell. But the other options are worse.

Last edited by bison on 17-Sep-2019 at 01:46 PM.

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thellier 
Re: Getting outside programmers interested
Posted on 17-Sep-2019 13:53:51
#27 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2009
Posts: 256
From: Paris

@NutsAboutAmiga

>and other where easy to use development tools for games, like Game Maker

Game Maker Studio can somehow be used for Amiga games as there is a partial support on Amiga systems with my GMAP
http://aminet.net/package/misc/emu/GMAP

I mean you can create a game on Game Maker Studio for PC that will works on an Amiga with GMAP (but if you use only the supported functions)

But keep in mind that Indy devs that create games with Game Maker Studio produce horrible code
1) There are not structured programmers
2) Game Maker eats lots of ressource with his object oriented way of managing game/collisions/events

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Zylesea 
Re: Getting outside programmers interested
Posted on 17-Sep-2019 18:58:58
#28 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 16-Mar-2004
Posts: 2159
From: Ostwestfalen, FRG

@bison

Quote:

bison wrote:
@sTix

Quote:
I really don't think that the Linux community is a good source if we want to attract developers.

I agree. As @amigadave said, it's a hard sell. But the other options are worse.


I don't think that to attract new coders the operating system they currently use is of much importance. It's the attitude and situation that has to fit.
I think there are two major groups:

- those bored with the stuff they have now
- "rebellish" ones (wanting something different because of difference)

group 2 is rather wide spread among younger folks (of course there are also older ones)
group 1 is more heterogenious. The already mentioned bored professionals may be a good example, or the just retired or the currious...

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ppcamiga1 
Re: Getting outside programmers interested
Posted on 18-Sep-2019 9:17:37
#29 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 141
From: Unknown

MUI/Reaction are nice, lightweight API, mamy developers will use them if they are will be available on top of unix.

Something like Amiga Os X - Amiga gui and graphics on top of unix still have chance.

Last edited by ppcamiga1 on 18-Sep-2019 at 09:17 AM.

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drstrangelove 
Re: Getting outside programmers interested
Posted on 18-Sep-2019 12:33:36
#30 ]
Member
Joined: 16-Aug-2005
Posts: 91
From: Unknown

@amigadave
@all

Some time ago, my colleagues and me considered the possibility of recreating a Debian-based Amiga Like OS. We use a small HP Mini 5101 notebook for this.

The idea was to port Scalos + Feelin and create a bash script (Startup-secuence) that organized the entire structure of directories inside /home/usr/. All this happened in the user space and the perception was that '/ home / usr /' appeared like 'sys:'

In the first execution of the script, he created directories and copied files necessary for the execution of Scalos. Subsequently, the script, after checking the existence of directories and files, this script executed Scalos. Over time, we would carry other small programs and an emulator to run old Amiga programs. All without running an X server.

Next, we decided to create a file 386.deb and another 64.deb to automate the installation of our development. The intention was to put it in Git Hub for those who would like to use it or contribute by expanding its possibilities ... but an attentive reading of licensing problems eventually made us give up releasing the work done.

Maybe the time has come to wake up our 'sleeping beauty'

(Sorry for my bad english)


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bison 
Re: Getting outside programmers interested
Posted on 18-Sep-2019 13:42:55
#31 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1441
From: N-Space

@ppcamiga1

Quote:
Something like Amiga Os X - Amiga gui and graphics on top of unix still have chance.

Yes, I think so too. I've been beating that drum for years.

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sTix 
Re: Getting outside programmers interested
Posted on 18-Sep-2019 13:49:33
#32 ]
Member
Joined: 22-Oct-2003
Posts: 69
From: Lund, Sweden

@bison

I think we should aim for something more exciting.

I'm really impressed with the work these guys have done:

https://genode.org/

Great documentation as well.

Of course, talking is cheap

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Lou 
Re: Getting outside programmers interested
Posted on 18-Sep-2019 16:36:40
#33 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 3983
From: Rhode Island

@Samurai_Crow

Quote:

Samurai_Crow wrote:
@Lou

Mono is dependant on LLVM JIT. If we had LLVM running we could use WebAssembly on AROS runtimes and be cross architecture without .NET bloat.

That's the beauty of DotNetCore3.0 ... there is no bloat.

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klx300r 
Re: Getting outside programmers interested
Posted on 18-Sep-2019 20:27:13
#34 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 4-Mar-2008
Posts: 3490
From: Toronto, Canada

@amigadave

Let's first properly support the great developers we have currently in the scene before we worry about 'the future' and by doing that keep the community active ! The past 5 years or so have been totally amazing for both new games/software and hardware development so lets keep the party going

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Samurai_Crow 
Re: Getting outside programmers interested
Posted on 19-Sep-2019 4:04:26
#35 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2003
Posts: 2164
From: Ft. Collins, Colorado, USA

Re:AROS hosted

AROS hosted is much more compact than LXDE or LXQT as a whole and that includes the whole hosted environment. The reason why is that it is all in one slab of memory without MMU based memory protection.

Re:Mono and .NET on 68080

Getting managed code is probably worth it if we can get it without MMU based memory protection. Vampire has a memory-protection unit independent of its MMU so the page size of the MMU gets larger and still gets single-byte resolution for memory protection as a result! The unconventional MMU/MPU split is one thing I like about the Apollo core.

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sTix 
Re: Getting outside programmers interested
Posted on 19-Sep-2019 6:46:00
#36 ]
Member
Joined: 22-Oct-2003
Posts: 69
From: Lund, Sweden

@klx300r

Quote:
Let's first properly support the great developers we have currently in the scene before we worry about 'the future' and by doing that keep the community active ! The past 5 years or so have been totally amazing for both new games/software and hardware development so lets keep the party going


I totally agree with this. And also; I think it's a lot easier to convince one of the current members of the community to start programming than to attract a developer from 'the outside'.

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saimon69 
Re: Getting outside programmers interested
Posted on 19-Sep-2019 21:46:59
#37 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 7-Dec-2007
Posts: 274
From: Los Angeles, CA

@sTix

Quote:
I totally agree with this. And also; I think it's a lot easier to convince one of the current members of the community to start programming than to attract a developer from 'the outside'.


Well, there is another problem well known, mostly in the classic amiga scene but i suspect it spreads also in the NG one: talent retention; there is a well known fame of some people to denigrate any attempt on making code or programs because it does not match their vision or expectations, and this attitude is around at least since the early 90s.

I know that one of the recommendation for those that want to get involved on open source (and by extension retro programming) is to have a thicker skin, however most of the time if the most vocal naggers just keep the mouth shut would help on the long term...

[edit] wow, i still have my christmas avatar since at least 2015, i guess is time to change ^^ [/edit]

Last edited by saimon69 on 19-Sep-2019 at 09:48 PM.

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sTix 
Re: Getting outside programmers interested
Posted on 20-Sep-2019 9:14:01
#38 ]
Member
Joined: 22-Oct-2003
Posts: 69
From: Lund, Sweden

@saimon69

Quote:
Well, there is another problem well known, mostly in the classic amiga scene but i suspect it spreads also in the NG one: talent retention; there is a well known fame of some people to denigrate any attempt on making code or programs because it does not match their vision or expectations, and this attitude is around at least since the early 90s.

I know that one of the recommendation for those that want to get involved on open source (and by extension retro programming) is to have a thicker skin, however most of the time if the most vocal naggers just keep the mouth shut would help on the long term...


Yes, it's a shame really, since this is one those things that we could do a lot better than, let's say, the Linux community which can be a bit harsh at times. We're older and there's not any real money involved, there's no point in trying to build a resumé or being 'better' than anyone else. The idea that one needs thick skin to pursue your hobby is sad and absurd IMO.


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kolla 
Re: Getting outside programmers interested
Posted on 20-Sep-2019 11:20:54
#39 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 1315
From: Trondheim, Norway

@saimon69

Quote:

I know that one of the recommendation for those that want to get involved on open source (and by extension retro programming) is to have a thicker skin, however most of the time if the most vocal naggers just keep the mouth shut would help on the long term...


Another recommendation, is for projects to have mentors - seasoned programmers with special focus on mentoring the "newbs", acting as an interface between them and the project at large.

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bison 
Re: Getting outside programmers interested
Posted on 20-Sep-2019 13:26:52
#40 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1441
From: N-Space

@sTix

Quote:
the Linux community which can be a bit harsh at times.

Exhibit A

http://heretic.net-ronin.org/~ramune/humor/viro/

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