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      /  [POLL] Is AMOS / Hollywood a dead end for AmigaOS software development?
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Poll : Is AMOS / Hollywood a dead end for AmigaOS software development?
Yes, without any doubt - AMOS / Hollywood harms the Amiga platform
No, I see no threat in either one
 
PosterThread
Petah 
[POLL] Is AMOS / Hollywood a dead end for AmigaOS software development?
Posted on 14-Sep-2019 12:25:37
#1 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 357
From: Unknown

With the recent discussion on AmigaWorld.net about proper software development for AmigaOS in mind, concerns have been raised about AMOS and Hollywood and how much they really add to the platform versus the harm they cause. In this special AmigaWorld.net poll, you are kindly asked to approach the ballot box and let the world know what you believe.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: [POLL] Is AMOS / Hollywood a dead end for AmigaOS software development?
Posted on 14-Sep-2019 12:35:54
#2 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11118
From: Norway

@Petah

I know raised a few red flags about Amos, but in general if Linux program or game is coded that is syntax compatible and use the same commands with AMOS is written outside of Amiga community, then it can be good thing for the platform. Sure you will not need an Amiga run the games or programs but, but it goes bout ways.

It all good as long as the developers decides to stay with the Amiga.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 14-Sep-2019 at 12:44 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 14-Sep-2019 at 12:38 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 14-Sep-2019 at 12:37 PM.

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Bugala 
Re: [POLL] Is AMOS / Hollywood a dead end for AmigaOS software development?
Posted on 14-Sep-2019 12:53:55
#3 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2007
Posts: 604
From: Finland

@Petah

Im not going to to pick either choice, since I havent seen enough information which way to decide.

Taking myself as an example. I had pretty much given up making games anymore, until I saw Hollywood. My problems were that I didnt have enough interest in making games, unless they would work with Amigas. At same time, I saw there wasnt enough market in Amiga to make it as a good plan.

Had there been easy enough way to make games for Amiga, I could have done that maybe, in way of Game Makers on PC, but there werent. And PC Game Makers wouldnt make Amiga versions.

When Hollywood came, it was both powerful enough, easy enough (C/python etc. were all available on Amiga too to make code for both Amiga and PC, but they seemed too difficult for me to learn that much), and you could make code work on PC as well (I think that was from version 4 on).

Without Hollywood, I would likely not be making games, unless my desire had grew strong enough that I would have too C or something, in which case I might be able to do some even more difficult things, but more likely I wouldnt be doing anything, unless Amos2 maybe had peeked my interest again.

Downside however is, that Hollywood doesnt really work for classic Amigas, it is too heavy to sensibly be making stuff that would work both on Classics and modern machines, so I am not doing anything for classics, only NG machines.


Amos2, if you can use it to make also Classic stuff, however could work for some people. I know there is one who have made games for PC, C64 etc. and he once asked me about Hollywood language with idea that he would learn it, since basically he would like to make something for A500 or A1200, but he is missing an easy enough tool to do so. I told him Hollywood is too power hungry, so he havent explored that further yet, but if Amos2 is both usable for modern machines, and at same time using same language, although avoiding some commands, you could make old kind Amos games, well, that could be something he might be interested in learning and get a game done.

And I wonder if there would be even more people like that?

So Amos and Hollywood are both a bit of a question wether more harm than good done.

At least for next gen they are good in that someone can make a game for NG amigas and still make money on PC side. This was basically how "the Secret of Middle city" came I suppose.

But at same time Hollywood practically rules out classic machines quite much, although there is planarama plug in etc. which do make it possible.

Amos2 on the other hand, if it does gain interest, and it could bring even old Amos users who havent used Amigas anymore, then if you can still make games with Amos2 to classic amigas at same time by using old commands only, that could well yield some interest in making Amiga games.

However, how much use is games like these is different question, since I dont really see them jumping into making AOS specific stuff like drivers or anything anyway, and you could also argue that if Amos people who dont jump into classics start making classic games, it also takes attention away from those who would make them using C or something and actually could start at later point to produce drivers etc. So this lack of attention could theoretically mean they never get as far as making drivers.

Any other thoughts/expreriences about these two?

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: [POLL] Is AMOS / Hollywood a dead end for AmigaOS software development?
Posted on 14-Sep-2019 13:25:56
#4 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11118
From: Norway

@Bugala

Quote:
since I dont really see them jumping into making AOS specific stuff


I can agree with that, coding AMOS is not the same as coding an Amiga program; you are in your own bobble. But you can probably say the same thing about python and other languages as well.

Most AMOS stuff you ever see is games, thats what its made for.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 14-Sep-2019 at 01:29 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 14-Sep-2019 at 01:26 PM.

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jPV 
Re: [POLL] Is AMOS / Hollywood a dead end for AmigaOS software development?
Posted on 14-Sep-2019 14:36:36
#5 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 11-Apr-2005
Posts: 676
From: .fi

@Petah

Quote:

Petah wrote:
versus the harm they cause.

What kind of harm they can cause?

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kamelito 
Re: [POLL] Is AMOS / Hollywood a dead end for AmigaOS software development?
Posted on 14-Sep-2019 17:27:22
#6 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 26-Jul-2004
Posts: 699
From: Unknown

@Petah

If Hollywood produce exécutables as fast as compile C code or near then it is a good product, if it is slow the it should improve its performance instead of adding features.

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Samurai_Crow 
Re: [POLL] Is AMOS / Hollywood a dead end for AmigaOS software development?
Posted on 14-Sep-2019 20:14:19
#7 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2003
Posts: 2162
From: Ft. Collins, Colorado, USA

@Petah

Amos 2 runs on a browser in JavaScript. If we had a decent browser it would be no problem.

Amos runs on Classic Amiga so no problem there.

Hollywood runs on anything so it's just needing a better bytecode engine for the 68020+.

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OneTimer1 
Re: [POLL] Is AMOS / Hollywood a dead end for AmigaOS software development?
Posted on 14-Sep-2019 20:31:42
#8 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 3-Aug-2015
Posts: 487
From: Unknown

@Petah

Sorry IMHO you did not understand what might be dead end and why.

1.
The Amiga itself might be a dead end, people starting programming projects for the Amiga should have the idea of portability to other platforms (Amigoid or not) in their mind or they should see this as a pure retro thing.


2.
AMOS itself is a dead end, it is not supported any more and its programming model bound to 68k and doesn't support RTG, AHI(?). It might be OK for retro programming.

3.
Hollywood is totally different from AMOS, it could generate content for various Amigaoid systems, supports modern features and can generate software for Windows or Linux as well (AFAIK). It might have problems on small 68k Amigas.

Neither Hollywood nor AMOS are harming the Amiga or the AmigaNGs.

Last edited by OneTimer1 on 14-Sep-2019 at 08:33 PM.

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Samurai_Crow 
Re: [POLL] Is AMOS / Hollywood a dead end for AmigaOS software development?
Posted on 14-Sep-2019 21:44:18
#9 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2003
Posts: 2162
From: Ft. Collins, Colorado, USA

@Petah

First, are we talking about regular Amos or the JavaScript-based Amos 2 that is backward compatible?

Last edited by Samurai_Crow on 14-Sep-2019 at 09:44 PM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: [POLL] Is AMOS / Hollywood a dead end for AmigaOS software development?
Posted on 14-Sep-2019 22:00:01
#10 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11118
From: Norway

@OneTimer1

Quote:

2.
AMOS itself is a dead end, it is not supported any more and its programming model bound to 68k and doesn't support RTG, AHI(?). It might be OK for retro programming.


Yes it does now support RTG and AHI, its work in progress but Amos Kittens is able to run Amos programs on RTG and is able play samples on AHI.

It's open source and is portable to MorphOS and AROS, currently runs on AmigaOS4.x.

We do not have a dedicated Amos Kittens Editor, so you need edit your AMOS programs under UAE in Amos Pro, until we have that solved.

(However there is tool to convert ASCII to AMOS code, but its not 100% compatible yet, don't expect source code converted that way to work in AmosPro)

you can read more about it here:

https://github.com/khval/AmosKittens/blob/master/README.md

https://github.com/khval/AmosKittens/milestones

What can say about Amos it is not an excellent language it has its quacks, but it does have a rich set of commands you can do almost everything with it, (with exception of network (there are work arounds) )

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 14-Sep-2019 at 10:34 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 14-Sep-2019 at 10:31 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 14-Sep-2019 at 10:18 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 14-Sep-2019 at 10:15 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 14-Sep-2019 at 10:10 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 14-Sep-2019 at 10:07 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 14-Sep-2019 at 10:02 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 14-Sep-2019 at 10:00 PM.

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ferrels 
Re: [POLL] Is AMOS / Hollywood a dead end for AmigaOS software development?
Posted on 14-Sep-2019 23:33:05
#11 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 825
From: Arizona

@Petah

Any form of development on the Amiga is essentially dead, so this poll is a bit pointless.

Last edited by ferrels on 15-Sep-2019 at 01:04 AM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: [POLL] Is AMOS / Hollywood a dead end for AmigaOS software development?
Posted on 15-Sep-2019 8:15:15
#12 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11118
From: Norway

@ferrels

I think wrong way to look at it, if I see development I see people being active and productive, and active and productive people are happy people. Something for everyone right.

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OneTimer1 
Re: [POLL] Is AMOS / Hollywood a dead end for AmigaOS software development?
Posted on 15-Sep-2019 10:01:27
#13 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 3-Aug-2015
Posts: 487
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:


Yes it does now support RTG and AHI, its work in progress


"work in process" means "it doesn't exist"

Thank you for the confession of non existing RTG or AHI compatibility of AMOS.

I don't want to badmouth your work, I believe a modern hardware independent BASIC with some backwards compatibility is a great idea. But I hate this stupid steam ware announcements the Amiga community was fed with the last 20 years.

A product can be public available or it doesn't exist to me ... period.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: [POLL] Is AMOS / Hollywood a dead end for AmigaOS software development?
Posted on 15-Sep-2019 12:13:36
#14 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11118
From: Norway

@OneTimer1

Quote:
A product can be public available or it doesn't exist to me ... period.


To download Amos Kittens go to Clone or Download project

https://github.com/khval/AmosKittens

The project is changed almost every day so it hard to make a well-tested 100% working precompiled binary for you to download. I decided to do this as a open source project, so developers can contribute and help complete project faster, the idea hers is that grumpy old men who do not contribute except complain can wait for it to be done, people who know what a C/C++ compiler work can help out.

I believe in open source cooperation, and I believe it’s the only thing that makes sense in this tiny community. And lot better then trying to drag etch other down in mud on the forums.

I also believe this community is too tiny for commercial products for programs or games, on one is getting rich, in this community.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 15-Sep-2019 at 12:43 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 15-Sep-2019 at 12:42 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 15-Sep-2019 at 12:18 PM.

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ferrels 
Re: [POLL] Is AMOS / Hollywood a dead end for AmigaOS software development?
Posted on 15-Sep-2019 18:39:51
#15 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 825
From: Arizona

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
I think wrong way to look at it, if I see development I see people being active and productive, and active and productive people are happy people. Something for everyone right.


Well, be so kind as to show us the software "development" that you see, because I haven't seen any development for the Amiga in years. Certainly not any development that produces a profit for any company that allows it to become self-sustaining and conduct further development. Those days are long past and ended in the late 1990's.

Consumers can't even buy new hardware, and even if they could, why would they buy an Amiga? An Amiga doesn't offer anything that the average consumer would want so developers naturally moved on when the Amiga died. Developers go where the money is, and that isn't the Amiga.

Bedroom coders who occasionally create a lame platform game or a 2D scroller isn't what anyone can call active development or being productive. Active software development produces income and is self-sustaining and entails producing something that people actually want to buy. The hobbyist coding that goes on here and there doesn't fall into that category.

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OldAmigan 
Re: [POLL] Is AMOS / Hollywood a dead end for AmigaOS software development?
Posted on 15-Sep-2019 22:56:51
#16 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 25-Dec-2003
Posts: 587
From: Dumfries, Scotland

@ferrels

I've just been offered a Vampire card for my Amiga 600 from the Apollo team.
They are looking at very shortly announcing the standalone V4 and the A1200 V4 for sale.

Hollywood is being constantly updated.

Python has been upgraded for AOS4.1

X5000?

There has been an announcement for a 68060 accelerator for the A1200

No development?

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kolla 
Re: [POLL] Is AMOS / Hollywood a dead end for AmigaOS software development?
Posted on 16-Sep-2019 0:25:39
#17 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1296
From: Trondheim, Norway

@OldAmigan

Does that mean 5 euros less for AROS from the Apollo team? :)

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ferrels 
Re: [POLL] Is AMOS / Hollywood a dead end for AmigaOS software development?
Posted on 16-Sep-2019 3:59:59
#18 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 825
From: Arizona

@OldAmigan

Quote:
I've just been offered a Vampire card for my Amiga 600 from the Apollo team. They are looking at very shortly announcing the standalone V4 and the A1200 V4 for sale. Hollywood is being constantly updated. Python has been upgraded for AOS4.1 X5000? There has been an announcement for a 68060 accelerator for the A1200 No development?


I think you're seriously confused as to what constitutes software development. Someone giving you a Vampire board isn't software development, and the Vampire is just a classic Amiga recreated in an FPGA with some improvements.

Oh, you mean the PC versions of Hollywood because the Amiga versions haven't been updated in years. I don't know a single person who uses Hollywood for ANYTHING and not a single person in my circle of IT professionals have ever heard of it, let alone heard of an Amiga, except for me. Great, OS4 got a python update. No one writes serious apps in python and even if they did, they wouldn't do so on an Amiga. Sorry, but a python update on a dead system doesn't constitute development....it is what it is....and that's simply an update or point revision.

When you can show me a company that makes a profit from developing Amiga software that can also pay its bills and pay its employees strictly from Amiga software development, then I will retract my remarks, but again, those days are long past and ended in the 1990s. Same goes for hardware. Not a single company selling Amiga hardware is making a profit from the sales, not the Apollo team, not Hans, and certainly not A-Eon according to Trevor himself. They all have day jobs and Amigas are a hobby and labor of love.....neither of which pay the bills. This is exactly why Amigas fall into the category of a dead platform for retro-hobbyists.

Last edited by ferrels on 16-Sep-2019 at 04:11 AM.
Last edited by ferrels on 16-Sep-2019 at 04:02 AM.

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jPV 
Re: [POLL] Is AMOS / Hollywood a dead end for AmigaOS software development?
Posted on 16-Sep-2019 6:18:52
#19 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 11-Apr-2005
Posts: 676
From: .fi

@ferrels

Quote:

Oh, you mean the PC versions of Hollywood because the Amiga versions haven't been updated in years. I don't know a single person who uses Hollywood for ANYTHING

WTF are you talking? Hollywood updates all supported platforms simultaneously always, including the Amiga versions. The latest major version is from this year.

Here is a person who uses Hollywood for all his programming nowadays. Click the Software link in my signature, all programs under Applications are made with Hollywood, and coded&compiled under MorphOS. And I've made all this within the three years... first I banged my head to the wall for 20 years with C and other languages and didn't get anything bigger done, but then I bought Hollywood three years ago and that let me be this productive.

It's really nice I can compile programs for all platforms without needing to even own them, coding is also very rapid and I can make quick sketches for my own use for anything I happen to need. I don't have to worry about all low level stuff for each project, because Hollywood offers so many higher level solutions already.

Last edited by jPV on 16-Sep-2019 at 06:36 AM.
Last edited by jPV on 16-Sep-2019 at 06:30 AM.

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ferrels 
Re: [POLL] Is AMOS / Hollywood a dead end for AmigaOS software development?
Posted on 16-Sep-2019 8:29:13
#20 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 825
From: Arizona

@jPV

Quote:
Here is a person who uses Hollywood for all his programming nowadays.


Nope you're wrong. The 68K version of Hollywood hasn't been updated in years. And so what? There are Amiga programmers using Amos for all their programming too and that doesn't mean they're creating anything that they can sell and pay their bills with, nor is it self-sustaining. Again, when someone can show me that there's a company out there that's developing Amiga applications on Amigas for Amigas and selling said applications at a profit that not only support the company doing the development, but also paying its developer(s) a living wage, then I'll retract my comments.

There simply isn't a market large enough to support any software company targeting either NG or classic Amigas. Amiga development has been dead for years and just because you cling to Hollywood and make a few Amiga apps here and there's doesn't mean that the Amiga is now somehow "alive" again. It's a dead platform and you're just a necro-programmer.

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