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bennymee
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Re: Vampire V4 Standalone - Details and Price Posted on 1-Oct-2019 16:38:52
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Cult Member |
Joined: 19-Aug-2003 Posts: 696
From: Netherlands | | |
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| @Lou
What benefit would be a PCIe card or do you think the cpu is fast enough to feed the PCIe card?
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OneTimer1
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Re: Vampire V4 Standalone - Details and Price Posted on 1-Oct-2019 18:01:39
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Cult Member |
Joined: 3-Aug-2015 Posts: 962
From: Unknown | | |
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| @Overflow
Your test pictures are proofing a terrible thing, the video display is distorted.
Maybe you should not scale a 4:3 picture up to 16:9 |
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NutsAboutAmiga
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Re: Vampire V4 Standalone - Details and Price Posted on 1-Oct-2019 18:36:20
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Elite Member |
Joined: 9-Jun-2004 Posts: 12795
From: Norway | | |
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| @bennymee
It's the GPU displays the graphics, the GPU is also doing a lot of moving, blending, and drawing 3d geometry, graphic is also stored in graphic cards memory. the CPU does not need to feed it for every single frame, only when your changing something you need update it. Also on the PC the GPU fetch memory from system memory, without CPU having to do it. _________________ http://lifeofliveforit.blogspot.no/ Facebook::LiveForIt Software for AmigaOS |
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Lou
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Re: Vampire V4 Standalone - Details and Price Posted on 1-Oct-2019 22:06:27
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Joined: 2-Nov-2004 Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island | | |
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| @bennymee
Depending on the card... ...you have 1400 to 3000+ SIMD units compared to the Vampire's 1 4 to 16 GB of RAM that can store all your audio and video... OpenCL computing...
Basically nothing.
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bennymee
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Re: Vampire V4 Standalone - Details and Price Posted on 1-Oct-2019 23:09:56
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Cult Member |
Joined: 19-Aug-2003 Posts: 696
From: Netherlands | | |
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| @Lou
Yes, I know. Opencl, who is gonna do the Amiga conversion? AmigaNG is capable, just backport it ;) |
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Lou
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Re: Vampire V4 Standalone - Details and Price Posted on 2-Oct-2019 2:14:52
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Elite Member |
Joined: 2-Nov-2004 Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island | | |
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| @bennymee
No point in porting something until there is a reason to port it. IIRC OpenGL is being ported so baby steps. However - the baby must exist in order to take those steps.
Porting OpenGLES/CL etc...to current Amiga chipsets is like adding a 10 speed transmission to a 2 horsepower lawnmower motor.
2 hp might be extremely generous... Last edited by Lou on 02-Oct-2019 at 02:16 AM. Last edited by Lou on 02-Oct-2019 at 02:15 AM.
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amigang
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Re: Vampire V4 Standalone - Details and Price Posted on 2-Oct-2019 4:42:28
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Elite Member |
Joined: 12-Jan-2005 Posts: 2018
From: Cheshire, England | | |
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| Dam, was hoping for it to be cheaper, but still tempted. I would love to get this put it inside one of the new A1200 cases, and keyboard and have a great all in one Amiga solution. V4 £500, case £150, keys £150 would make it £800 project, witch is just a bit much.
Might have to go the emulation root, raspberry pi it....but I’m going to wait a bit longer To see if a1200.net announces anything on its keyboard solution they have planned.
_________________ AmigaNG, YouTube, LeaveReality Studio |
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kolla
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Re: Vampire V4 Standalone - Details and Price Posted on 2-Oct-2019 6:09:18
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Elite Member |
Joined: 20-Aug-2003 Posts: 2859
From: Trondheim, Norway | | |
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| @amigang
When you have a whole A1200 case to fill, why a raspberry pi and not a much more capable amd64 based board? _________________ B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC |
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amigang
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Re: Vampire V4 Standalone - Details and Price Posted on 2-Oct-2019 7:35:33
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Elite Member |
Joined: 12-Jan-2005 Posts: 2018
From: Cheshire, England | | |
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| @kolla
Price is a big one, Pi are only £25, next support, there a whole little community around the Pi for cool little projects/programs and retro Pi get some pretty good easy to set up build made and optimised for the Pi.
I have consider buying a old laptop for this project too, one with maybe dead screen but still works and has hdmi out so I could get it cheap and be fairly easier to fit inside a1200 case.
its a project I’m still in two mind weather to do next year. _________________ AmigaNG, YouTube, LeaveReality Studio |
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bennymee
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Re: Vampire V4 Standalone - Details and Price Posted on 2-Oct-2019 8:26:51
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Cult Member |
Joined: 19-Aug-2003 Posts: 696
From: Netherlands | | |
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| @Lou
You are completly right.
No point at all, but the question raise from: usb 3 adapter to PCIe on a hypothetical Vampire with usb 3 (no usb 3 driver), a PCIe card (with no 2D/3D drivers), which makes no sense at all with the current Vampire and the current 68080 cpu.
The Vampire is the very best in replacing a classic machine and taking it a few steps further. On the AmigaNG systems OpenCL could make sense, but for these systems there isn't even started anything for that matter.
Last edited by bennymee on 02-Oct-2019 at 08:27 AM.
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Lou
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Re: Vampire V4 Standalone - Details and Price Posted on 2-Oct-2019 13:49:12
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Elite Member |
Joined: 2-Nov-2004 Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island | | |
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| @bennymee
Quote:
bennymee wrote: @Lou
You are completly right.
No point at all, but the question raise from: usb 3 adapter to PCIe on a hypothetical Vampire with usb 3 (no usb 3 driver), a PCIe card (with no 2D/3D drivers), which makes no sense at all with the current Vampire and the current 68080 cpu.
The Vampire is the very best in replacing a classic machine and taking it a few steps further. On the AmigaNG systems OpenCL could make sense, but for these systems there isn't even started anything for that matter.
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I think it's you who is a bit confused. 1 SIMD unit is useless for 3D...well unless you don't mind 20k plain old polygons at 10 fps in 480p and no custom shading. How much more would it have cost to support USB 3.x?
For reference: https://www.techrepublic.com/article/want-your-raspberry-pi-4-to-run-a-modern-graphics-card-this-engineers-working-on-it/ A $35 machine that can run a video card is a big deal. Just seems off that a 500-600 piece of hardware can't.
I have personally used such an adapter in one of my PC's to run a 2nd video card to do some dual card Ethereum mining. Whatever is running on the GPU runs at full speed from it's own memory.
AMD drivers are open source ... in fact the Linux drivers are superior to the Windows drivers, FYI.
On second thought let's wait another 10 years for FPGAs to become fast enough to render 100,000 polygons at 30fps...cuz that's a great upgrade path... Last edited by Lou on 02-Oct-2019 at 01:53 PM.
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Hypex
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Re: Vampire V4 Standalone - Details and Price Posted on 2-Oct-2019 16:57:13
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Elite Member |
Joined: 6-May-2007 Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia | | |
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| @Lou
Quote:
A $35 machine that can run a video card is a big deal. Just seems off that a 500-600 piece of hardware can't. |
But is the point of the Vampire to run like a video card? A lot of effort has been put into the SAGA core. Extending AGA that one part better and integrating RTG along with other features. In fact, given the nature of the hardware, the point of it really is to go backwards with playfields, sprites and bitplanes. Not forwards to chunky and 3d acceleration, that's just a bonus. Mind you, by comparison to the real deal, it should have a built in 3d accelerator to match a Radeon or whatever the best is an Amiga can do with Warp3d. But, even if it had a PCIe slot for video expansion, that would ruin it, as suddenly you have SAGA separate to RTG and they would need a way to transparently render SAGA into the RTG framebuffer. |
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Lou
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Re: Vampire V4 Standalone - Details and Price Posted on 2-Oct-2019 20:50:14
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Elite Member |
Joined: 2-Nov-2004 Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island | | |
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| @Hypex
Quote:
Hypex wrote: @Lou
Quote:
A $35 machine that can run a video card is a big deal. Just seems off that a 500-600 piece of hardware can't. |
But is the point of the Vampire to run like a video card? A lot of effort has been put into the SAGA core. Extending AGA that one part better and integrating RTG along with other features. In fact, given the nature of the hardware, the point of it really is to go backwards with playfields, sprites and bitplanes. Not forwards to chunky and 3d acceleration, that's just a bonus. Mind you, by comparison to the real deal, it should have a built in 3d accelerator to match a Radeon or whatever the best is an Amiga can do with Warp3d. But, even if it had a PCIe slot for video expansion, that would ruin it, as suddenly you have SAGA separate to RTG and they would need a way to transparently render SAGA into the RTG framebuffer.
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But the SAGA "core" is not an enhanced chipset or even a chipset at all. It's another thread on the cpu doing functions that the PAULA and the blitter would normally do. Marketing vs reality. SAGA is already RTG+AHI. Why not just let a real gpu chipset do it's job rather than create another mis-guided 68K version of the CELL processor but with only 1 or 2 SPUs?
Letting a 68k machine use a modern video card solves a lot of problems.Last edited by Lou on 02-Oct-2019 at 08:52 PM.
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Overflow
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Re: Vampire V4 Standalone - Details and Price Posted on 3-Oct-2019 10:00:37
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Super Member |
Joined: 12-Jun-2012 Posts: 1628
From: Norway | | |
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| @Lou
Im not a developer, so Im talking out of ignorance.
BUT wont allowing 3rd party graphics cards introduce the driverhell that X1000/5000 has been suffering? Hans has done a heroic job developing the driver, but I get a feeling that Apollo Team is not even contemplating that option to avoid "omg! I have a $700 3D card, and its not supporting xyz feature!" complaints on the forums. |
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OlafS25
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Re: Vampire V4 Standalone - Details and Price Posted on 3-Oct-2019 10:38:43
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Elite Member |
Joined: 12-May-2010 Posts: 6321
From: Unknown | | |
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| @Overflow
the devs can control how hardware behaves
that has many advantages
of course Vampires will never beat a modern graphic card |
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kolla
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Re: Vampire V4 Standalone - Details and Price Posted on 3-Oct-2019 13:59:30
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Elite Member |
Joined: 20-Aug-2003 Posts: 2859
From: Trondheim, Norway | | |
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| @OlafS25
Quote:
OlafS25 wrote: @Overflow
the devs can control how hardware behaves
that has many advantages
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Exactly. And then there was this... let us not forget it.
http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=1¬e=5768
_________________ B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC |
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megol
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Re: Vampire V4 Standalone - Details and Price Posted on 3-Oct-2019 15:00:23
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Regular Member |
Joined: 17-Mar-2008 Posts: 355
From: Unknown | | |
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| @Lou
You keep repeating this however to me that seem unlikely, why handle something in a slow second thread of a slow softcore when it would be easy and quick to do in hardware? Have anything to support that claim? |
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NutsAboutAmiga
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Re: Vampire V4 Standalone - Details and Price Posted on 3-Oct-2019 15:29:07
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Elite Member |
Joined: 9-Jun-2004 Posts: 12795
From: Norway | | |
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| @Hypex
"Even if it had a PCIe slot for video expansion" who says it has to be for video expansion, there is lots of interesting stuff to plug into PCIe, USB3, sound cards, SATA controllers, PCIe active raiser cards. There is also the mini PCIe standard used on laptops, some solidstate disks can pluged direct into PCIe slot.
I think it be great if as many developers as possible where able to write drivers for new modern PCIe explanation cards. And the only way for this to happen is access to commuters that has that connector.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 03-Oct-2019 at 03:36 PM. Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 03-Oct-2019 at 03:34 PM. Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 03-Oct-2019 at 03:30 PM.
_________________ http://lifeofliveforit.blogspot.no/ Facebook::LiveForIt Software for AmigaOS |
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Lou
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Re: Vampire V4 Standalone - Details and Price Posted on 3-Oct-2019 17:27:02
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Elite Member |
Joined: 2-Nov-2004 Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island | | |
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| @megol
Quote:
megol wrote: @Lou
You keep repeating this however to me that seem unlikely, why handle something in a slow second thread of a slow softcore when it would be easy and quick to do in hardware? Have anything to support that claim? |
Repeating what?
That SAGA is just the 2nd cpu thread performing blit and audio operations?
Perhaps you haven't done enough research into what it is yourself. They couldn't "enhance" the AGA chipset so as not to break compatibility.
Perhaps you should do your own research rather than question mine?
FYI an 020 with FASTRAM can blit faster than the blitter/Agnus.
In case you aren't sure, "blitter" is just a chip that copies memory from one place to another. If you declare a range of memory for your frame buffer - anything that can access that memory can be used to "animate"/draw. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blitter
So why is the fact that SAGA is just the thread of the cpu that the OS generally doesn't know how to access being used to 'blit' or combine audio 'channels'...? This is done in the DDR memory and that memory contains the frame buffer for the HDMI output. |
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ErikBauer
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Re: Vampire V4 Standalone - Details and Price Posted on 3-Oct-2019 19:21:00
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Super Member |
Joined: 25-Feb-2004 Posts: 1141
From: Italy | | |
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| Plus, SAGA has enhanced sprites and afaik every screen mode can be "coppered". Audio has been enhanced too: Pamela hs 8 Stereo channels with 16 bit audio
_________________ God created Paula so that Allister Brimble and Dave Whittaker could do music
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