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asymetrix 
Re: Third gen Amiga?
Posted on 29-Sep-2019 11:41:19
#21 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 856
From: United Kingdom

@thread

Most Linux needs 1GB+ as minimum.

What one needs is a statistical analysis on the files to find common data.
Is it the UI ? Control logic ?

Amiga was always about optimization between hardware and software.

Today its called hardware acceleration.

Most PC games and apps follow the same design patterns, the same algorithms.

EG Most Doom1 clones use the same code base, but no one thinks to create accelerated code blocks for games & applications.

Why don't we have DoomEngine1.h

Why not CLI.h, application.h, UI.h

We don't need unhelpful header files just use : QuakeEngine2.h, DoomMenu1.h, SoundBlaster.h, XBoxOneController.h

Game logic : PlatformGame.h

If porting a word processor use : WordProcessorUIControl.h etc

We don't even have a repository of source fragments that are compatible across Amiga systems. We just have code snippets and a old, outdated Hardware Reference Manual designed for NASA Engineers.



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Kronos 
Re: Third gen Amiga?
Posted on 29-Sep-2019 17:57:26
#22 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2209
From: Unknown

@asymetrix





Yeah maybe a bit harsh, but your post just makes 0 sense.

"Doom clones" use the same code base cos they use the same engine *doh*

Same goes for the rest, one WTF after the other....

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pavlor 
Re: Third gen Amiga?
Posted on 29-Sep-2019 18:41:12
#23 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9114
From: Unknown

@Samurai_Crow

Easiest way would be to use Linux, add our own desktop with full Workbench look and feel and use something like RunInUAE for full 68k and OS4 compatibility. Simple, cheap and doable in two years with modest budget and developer resources.


Sure, with enough money and developers, one can dream about real new OS.

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Samurai_Crow 
Re: Third gen Amiga?
Posted on 30-Sep-2019 3:14:18
#24 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2003
Posts: 2222
From: Minnesota, USA

@pavlor

With Google's money, Fuschia will dump the Linux kernel from ChromeOS and Android and replace them with something based on BeOS as a kernel. Once that happens all Linux-based bets are off. Linux has grown too bloated.

When I said Haiku can run comfortably on 1 Gig of RAM, I meant running the most demanding apps available for it. Most BSD software recompiles for it handily. They are as close to a full release as AROS ABI v1 and have shaved memory usage off of the kernel since the last time I looked. All this is because their OS is written in C++ rather than C. Very little Assembly code needed. It's fast, free and maintainable... Once you get over the fact that it's x86_64-based BeOS equivalent. It runs LibreOffice via Qt5. Its WebPositive browser is about to get WebKit2 support with full multithreading. If it had Hans de Reuter's Radeon drivers and Daytona's OpenGL-ES2 wrappers I would consider Haiku to be feature complete.

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bison 
Re: Third gen Amiga?
Posted on 30-Sep-2019 4:04:56
#25 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1644
From: N-Space

@Samurai_Crow

Quote:
With Google's money, Fuschia will dump the Linux kernel from ChromeOS and Android and replace them with something based on BeOS as a kernel.

Did you read that somewhere, or are you speculating? I don't keep up on industry news or rumors very well, so I may have missed something, but I think the probability of this happening is extremely low, base on how heavily Google is invested in Linux. Or maybe you're joking? -- I can't tell...

Last edited by bison on 30-Sep-2019 at 04:07 AM.
Last edited by bison on 30-Sep-2019 at 04:05 AM.

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Samurai_Crow 
Re: Third gen Amiga?
Posted on 30-Sep-2019 5:28:19
#26 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2003
Posts: 2222
From: Minnesota, USA

@bison

I've read that Fuschia is in the experimental stages. Whether or when it replaces the other 2 Linux-based operating systems is anyone's guess but the engineers that work on it worked on BeOS back in the 90's. Both Fuschia and Haiku are open source but unlike Haiku, Fuschia is targeted to touchscreens.

Edit:
Heavy investing in the Linux kernel can also mean that it's high maintenance code. Fuschia may just be a long-term solution to some short-term workarounds.

Last edited by Samurai_Crow on 30-Sep-2019 at 06:08 AM.

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bison 
Re: Third gen Amiga?
Posted on 30-Sep-2019 15:44:58
#27 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1644
From: N-Space

@Samurai_Crow

OK, so the some of the people who work on Fuschia used to work on BeOS. Now that I can believe.

It's probably reasonable to expect that Fuschia will have some BeOS influence. I haven't followed this much, being that I'm so *not* into Google.

You're right about Linux -- it's too big. Fortunately, since Linux is used in embedded systems, one can still construct a fairly lean Linux-based desktop system.

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Rose 
Re: Third gen Amiga?
Posted on 30-Sep-2019 15:58:21
#28 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Nov-2009
Posts: 708
From: Unknown

@bison

It uses Zirkon micro-kernel which is based on Little kernel https://github.com/littlekernel/lk/wiki/Introduction .

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outlawal2 
Re: Third gen Amiga?
Posted on 30-Sep-2019 16:16:34
#29 ]
Member
Joined: 16-Apr-2010
Posts: 88
From: Unknown

Please NO... If Amiga becomes another flavor of Linux I am done with the entire scene. If I wanted to play with Linux and once in a while I do, I will install Manjaro and use Linux. Do not kill of Amiga with Linux back end PLEASE



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megol 
Re: Third gen Amiga?
Posted on 30-Sep-2019 17:04:10
#30 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 17-Mar-2008
Posts: 344
From: Unknown

@Samurai_Crow
Fuschia isn't in any way or form based on BeOS, it's using a new microkernel. And why do you think an OS have to be designed for a certain user interface? Android and iOS are mostly used on touchscreen devices while being based on the Unix design...

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bison 
Re: Third gen Amiga?
Posted on 30-Sep-2019 17:08:28
#31 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1644
From: N-Space

@outlawal2

Quote:
Do not kill of Amiga with Linux back end PLEASE

Amiga is already dead, so you concern is probably unwarranted.

Have you ever used AROS hosted? It would be a lot like that.

Last edited by bison on 30-Sep-2019 at 05:21 PM.

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megol 
Re: Third gen Amiga?
Posted on 30-Sep-2019 17:09:32
#32 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 17-Mar-2008
Posts: 344
From: Unknown

@outlawal2
You do understand that using a 3rd gen AOS based on Linux wouldn't necessarily be anything like using a normal Linux distribution? Linux is a kernel and almost everything a user sees comes from other projects.

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outlawal2 
Re: Third gen Amiga?
Posted on 30-Sep-2019 18:33:51
#33 ]
Member
Joined: 16-Apr-2010
Posts: 88
From: Unknown

@bison
Yes I have used Aros and again if I wanted to mess with something hosted I would use AROS


@megol
Regardless, if you had to do anything under the hood (and you often do especially with Amiga) then you would still be hit in the face with Linux.. And again I am not interested in Linux unless I want to do something with Linux




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ppcamiga1 
Re: Third gen Amiga?
Posted on 30-Sep-2019 20:30:48
#34 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 207
From: Unknown

Comparison to Google does not make sense.
Amiga community has not Google money and will never have.
Google has millions to pay for drivers, Amiga community not and will never have.

It is simple.
Nvidia makes drivers only for win, linux, osx (darwin), bsd. And do not release documentations for their chips.
Third gen Amiga will be based on linux, darwin, bsd or on x86 it will be worth nothing crap like AROS x86 is now.
We have year 2019 not 2006. cpu provides only small part of processing power and good drivers for gfx are important. So no haiku, no home made kernel, no fuchsia.

People who don't like unix may still use classic or good old second gen NG ppc Amiga.


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ppcamiga1 
Re: Third gen Amiga?
Posted on 30-Sep-2019 20:42:27
#35 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 207
From: Unknown

Third gen Amiga should be endian agnostic.
First it should have memory protection so no peek and poke into os and other apps.
Second we do not need another split in out community.
People who will want to continue use of ppc hardware should be able to use it.
Biggest mistake of AROS team was not support of ppc.



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ppcamiga1 
Re: Third gen Amiga?
Posted on 30-Sep-2019 20:46:59
#36 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 207
From: Unknown

Exec. We do not need exec. It is too outdated and makes introducion of memory protection impossible.
Third gen Amiga should have memory protection, unix compatybility, good drivers.
Everything which make it not possible should be dropped.
Everything below Amiga gui and graphics should be dropped.

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Samurai_Crow 
Re: Third gen Amiga?
Posted on 30-Sep-2019 21:33:31
#37 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2003
Posts: 2222
From: Minnesota, USA

@megol

Quote:

megol wrote:
@Samurai_Crow
Fuschia isn't in any way or form based on BeOS, it's using a new microkernel. And why do you think an OS have to be designed for a certain user interface? Android and iOS are mostly used on touchscreen devices while being based on the Unix design...

Well that's disappointing. I was hoping Fuschia would be designed like a portable BeOS. As for the touchscreen interface, it would be a driver issue if you tried for a desktop version.

Re:Android being Linux based

How many people want to hook a floppy disk drive to a cell phone? It was possible via the MicroUSB interface until very recently because the Linux kernel was not modular enough to remove the floppy support from the USB drivers. Need I say more?

Re:BSD and Haiku

Haiku uses BSD drivers for its ethernet support, why not do the same for the graphics drivers? As long as there are equivalent functions to map to... Wine? ReactOS?

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bison 
Re: Third gen Amiga?
Posted on 1-Oct-2019 4:38:59
#38 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1644
From: N-Space

@Samurai_Crow

Quote:
Haiku uses BSD drivers for its ethernet support, why not do the same for the graphics drivers?

Most BSD graphics drivers come from Linux; at least that's where DragonFly gets their Intel drivers from. I'm not sure how they work around the licensing issues.

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BigD 
Re: Third gen Amiga?
Posted on 1-Oct-2019 8:17:31
#39 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5380
From: UK

@ppcamiga1

Quote:

ppcamiga1 wrote:
Exec. We do not need exec. It is too outdated and makes introducion of memory protection impossible.
Third gen Amiga should have memory protection, unix compatybility, good drivers.
Everything which make it not possible should be dropped.
Everything below Amiga gui and graphics should be dropped.


Yeah, and the Tabor should be given away with tokens from cornflakes packets and chip foundries should restart 060 cpu manufacture 😋

Pigs might fly in other words! There's no cheap CURRENT NG Amiga and the Tabor launch is failing before its started. What makes you think ANYONE would invest in this mess?

It's a miracle we've got the Vampire Standalone. Just buy that and stop trying to chart the future course of Amiga when it's been a rudderless ship ever since Hi-Torro sold out to avoid being dissolved into a Atari custom chip R&D outfit!

A-EON will approach Varysis and they will suggest a compromised SoC machine with difficult to support on board sound, graphics and networking but they will have no other options. They'll buy Hyperion and struggle on until Trevor gets fed up and then FPGA and emulation will be all we have.

How's that for a 'roadmap'?

Whose going to make the decision to scrap Exec? Thomas Richter, Trevor, Matthew from AmigaKit? There's no will for shaking things up in the middle of court case, only survival which isn't guaranteed.

Vampire doesn't need an OS license from Hyperion or Cloanto and steals sales from A-EON. Without profits or at least a break even point for A-EON there are no more NG machines full stop IMHO.

Last edited by BigD on 01-Oct-2019 at 08:59 AM.
Last edited by BigD on 01-Oct-2019 at 08:19 AM.

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kolla 
Re: Third gen Amiga?
Posted on 1-Oct-2019 9:20:37
#40 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1511
From: Trondheim, Norway

@bison

Quote:

bison wrote:
Most BSD graphics drivers come from Linux; at least that's where DragonFly gets their Intel drivers from. I'm not sure how they work around the licensing issues.

It's not that difficult to figure it out:

https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/master/drivers/gpu/drm/i915/i915_drv.c

vs.

https://gitweb.dragonflybsd.org/dragonfly.git/blob/HEAD:/sys/dev/drm/i915/i915_drv.c

Last edited by kolla on 01-Oct-2019 at 09:22 AM.

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