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KimmoK 
Re: What do you want from Amiga
Posted on 24-Oct-2019 11:33:44
#21 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5160
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@OlafS25

>People use a computer not because of hardware or OS but software (or apps how it is called today)
>and there I mean exclusive software

I know a lot of people that are not happy how Windows or Linux or OSX affect the way they would like to use their computers.

So I think the OS is very important.
And for me, it's perhaps the most important building block to get nice computing experience.

>That will be the critical point... do we get enough exclusive software that makes it interesting to use amiga or not

I think "exclusive software" is not mandatory.

The more user use-cases are covered, the better.
Some of the mainstream use-cases can be done nicer.

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// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
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// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

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OlafS25 
Re: What do you want from Amiga
Posted on 24-Oct-2019 12:47:51
#22 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5615
From: Unknown

@KimmoK

the normal use-cases are the problem... people want to use a up-to-date browser, they want to answer in facebook or whatsapp, they want to hear music saved in the cloud. Most of this is closed

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KimmoK 
Re: What do you want from Amiga
Posted on 24-Oct-2019 13:38:10
#23 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5160
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@OlafS25

"people want to use a up-to-date browser, they want to answer in facebook or whatsapp, they want to hear music saved in the cloud"

We might need RPi inside every Amiga(like)OS system for that.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bPEplSHnsL4Eqsg0tiJq9xtBTEdVoosc/view

(untill we have robust system on x64 that can use virtual environment for foreign OS&apps)

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icbrkr 
Re: What do you want from Amiga
Posted on 24-Oct-2019 14:05:24
#24 ]
Member
Joined: 30-Jul-2005
Posts: 18
From: Particles! BBS

I think I echo a few people on here.

I'm pretty happy with my x5000 - yeah it's not completely "modern" and that's fine with me, I wouldn't have bought it in the first place if I wanted it to look/feel like everything else on the market.

I do want a browser that works everywhere, not one that's 6 years behind.

I'd like my second core to be used.

I'd like some newer PPC software. Heck, I'd like some support for the stuff I've bought. I still can't get A-EON to reply to my numerous messages and emails about some software I bought on the AmiStore requiring a registration key. It's pointless without it.

I love the idea about building your own classic using a website and have it delivered to you. I'd do this in a heartbeat.


And of course, stop the whole legal mess. It's ridiculous.

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BigD 
Re: What do you want from Amiga
Posted on 24-Oct-2019 16:06:44
#25 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5032
From: UK

@KimmoK

Quote:
I know a lot of people that are not happy how Windows or Linux or OSX affect the way they would like to use their computers.


OSX can be hacked to a point of being fairly pleasant e.g. XtraFinder / cDock etc. Windows 7 is passable for the odd bit of Elite Dangerous or Sonic Mania with just some patching needed to use a Bluetooth PS3 controller

It's the old productivity packages I miss on the Amiga. The A-EON team should spruce them up and make PPC versions and give the Tabor a USP.

IT SIMPLY ISN'T GOOD ENOUGH IMHO TO SELL A SYSTEM SIMPLY ON THE BACK OF AN OS AND A UNIQUE (some might say archaic) WAY OF OPENING AND CLOSING WINDOWS!!

It's the programs stupid!

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BigD 
Re: What do you want from Amiga
Posted on 24-Oct-2019 16:14:15
#26 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5032
From: UK

@Thread

... the problem is that we failed to continue the Amiga ecosystem evolving fast enough after C=, Escom, Gateway screwed everything up. We failed to keep the likes of EA, Grasshopper LLC, NewTek and IrseeSoft interested and hence we no longer have the developers available to keep our favourite programs up to date! A-EON bought up the the IP to some of them but haven't the manpower to get the job done in a manageable time frame hence a slllooooowwwww stagnation!

Throw the court case into the mix and we are practically going backwards!

Last edited by BigD on 24-Oct-2019 at 04:14 PM.

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Zylesea 
Re: What do you want from Amiga
Posted on 24-Oct-2019 16:50:40
#27 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 16-Mar-2004
Posts: 2161
From: Ostwestfalen, FRG

@OlafS25

Quote:

OlafS25 wrote:
@KimmoK

the normal use-cases are the problem... people want to use a up-to-date browser, they want to answer in facebook or whatsapp, they want to hear music saved in the cloud. Most of this is closed


I agree. But I also disagree.
I agree that _people_ want this and that. Serving ppl taht would be just more of the same coffee that's alredy there (Win,Android iOS, OS X).
So f*ck the people! I don't care what the people (=!Amiga usrs) want. I want a system that does it alternatively, in a way that Amiga did. Clean and easy to control.

i mean the entire IT idustry is kind of borked. Just yesterday I installed Chemdraw on my Windows box. I first needed to generate an account, then select the products, generate a key, download a download manager (sic!) to get the actual program files that then get installed (all in all about 800MB - all that just to draw a few molecules.
And is the program intuitive? Well, not too much. Similar to Adobe products. And it's similar expensive, too.
Of course the cost is generally okay if you use all the advanced functions, but that's not the case for _many_ users. They just want to draw molecules and reaction schemes.

Gimme a clean lean 5-10 mb binary for 20 EUR to draw a few simple molecules and arrange a few arrows. Heck, I am close to hack such a program myself in Hollywood...

And that example is so typical for the entire IT-industry. They all suffer from featuritis and controlling as well as from ever updating and changing working programs.

Hence, I don't want more of the same. I want it differently. And if it does not play all the songs from the cloud or has a Whatsapp clent - well , yeah, rock'n'roll! I mean am really pretty satisfied with MorphOS, it does much of the stuff I want and that with a tiny user base and few developers. I guess i even know half the MorphOS community by name! More users would be helpful, but not for any price (i.e. make it "normal/standard").

The only thing where we cannot circumvent the big beasts is the browser. I would prefer a cleaner and lighter web, but it just isn't. It's full of frameworks that do this and that, but _often_ don't provide that much benefit (I know there are also sites that really do well and incredible and feature bringing stuff with these techniqusa and hence it's okay).

Hence for me: A lightweight and controllable OS + good browser and a few programs that do quite some stuff, but differently than many standard solutions. I am rather confident that MorphOS x64 will offer that, AROS too. OS4 - dunno, rather doubt it though in limbo since years, wrong ISA).


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nikosidis 
Re: What do you want from Amiga
Posted on 24-Oct-2019 17:02:35
#28 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Dec-2008
Posts: 933
From: Norway, Oslo

Great, original software takes time to develop. We seen very little of that already. Why would that suddenly change?
I agree that Amiga NG hardware been way to expensive. We have MorphOS running on cheap MAC hardware and the same can be said for AROS even running on a cheap i386 laptop. That does not seam to help much.

I would say that the OS is best when used as a gaming, multimedia platform. Other than that the OS is not that clever anymore compared to alternatives.

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asymetrix 
Re: What do you want from Amiga
Posted on 25-Oct-2019 9:01:26
#29 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 840
From: United Kingdom

@thread

As users they all want different things, sometimes work, sometimes play.

I think the most important thing is the users want the tools to be creative.

Video professionals need 32 GB memory as a minimum, with hardware accelerated encode decode, that is quicker than the competition.

For games Unity is an industry standard.

Personally I want to see really creative engineering combined with a developer team that has vision and coordination like a military unit.

Computer hardware is being made the same way as everyone else but hardware keeps forgetting about the data.

We need DATA orientated hardware, intelligent installers.
Software written to be dynamic, optimized with true object oriented - data oriented design.

Like the old original OO lecture course at :

OO Course

The developer team needs Devops experts, Full stack developers, Mathematicians and data scientists.

I want Amiga developer courses that are certified.

Like the professionals at Pluralsight.

https://www.pluralsight.com

We need a game engine Framework.

A UI/AX, services Framework that's portable on new architecture in days.

Hardware is a state machine, each component has a state so software development can also be FIXED.

Why cant I develop a midi player in days if someone else also created a midi player in the past, just reuse the core technology.

Why cant I just create a game in an hour ?

Superfrogs menu api + Zool2D api + custom game logic api + Tablet api = new Tablet game ?





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OlafS25 
Re: What do you want from Amiga
Posted on 25-Oct-2019 9:42:35
#30 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5615
From: Unknown

@nikosidis

the chance to get games is much bigger than new productivity software

There will be (hopefully) updated version of Final Writer for the different platforms but that will be the exception. Even in the golden age (beginning 90s) serious applications were the exception, most amiga software were games.

The only hope is that some of the old 68k software (when the authors are still there and interested) might be updated

Worst case is in my view if the old sources are sold to commercial NG entities who want it on PPC at any price. That will not work. We see that already.

To hope for really new and competitive software in todays terms is simply unrealistic

One example is this:

https://youtu.be/YDn0-g-kpDY

A game of 90s unreleased and now released with improved graphics

I hope this will happen more frequently if a market is visible developing (for both games and applications). It is much easier to use existing sources and improve that than to create something from scratch or port it to a different ISA like some try with PPC

Last edited by OlafS25 on 25-Oct-2019 at 10:02 AM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 25-Oct-2019 at 09:43 AM.

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BigD 
Re: What do you want from Amiga
Posted on 25-Oct-2019 10:38:49
#31 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5032
From: UK

@OlafS25

Quote:
To hope for really new and competitive software in todays terms is simply unrealistic


I don't think so. Tell me about a good modern alternative to Deluxe Paint, DrawStudio and PageStream on the Mac/PC and I'll believe you. Sadly, bloatware is king on modern platforms and UI and ease of use to aid creativity is a dead art

Last edited by BigD on 25-Oct-2019 at 10:39 AM.

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OlafS25 
Re: What do you want from Amiga
Posted on 25-Oct-2019 11:04:13
#32 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5615
From: Unknown

@BigD

it is not only bloatware. Most software has (of course) much more functionality (f.e. video editing). As a example I use new software for printing/web design on winows. It simulates f.e. print colours. The requirements and expectations have changed, at least if you want to use something professionally. But as I wrote... I hope for updated amiga 68k software (both applications and games)

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KimmoK 
Re: What do you want from Amiga
Posted on 25-Oct-2019 11:09:31
#33 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5160
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@ web browsing

In the past I could flick between web browser tab's nearly as fast as with screens on Amiga.

Nowdays, with mainstream browsers, the page on a tab seem to reload nearly every time (from cache?) when I go back to a tab.
Because of that I have to wait for a while between tabs. Same in all 2...8GB RAM devices (Android&Windows, especially Chrome&Firefox). Even with just two tabs.

So, IMO, we do not need THOSE browsers on Amiga.
But do we ever get enough momentum to get our own "stupendously smart and fast" (but anyway compatible) browser developed?

@Olaf

"Most software has (of course) much more functionality"

Most often very little of that is needed by average user.
That fact should be handled in some smarter way than bloating the SW with unnecessary stuff.
(eg. I would love to be able to continue using google docs without needing 10Ghz+16GB, resource need for gdocs have gone through the roof in ~two years.
+
I would love to be able to start word processor in a second rather than wait half a minute of libreoffice to load up on low end x64/8GB/SSD laptop.)

Last edited by KimmoK on 25-Oct-2019 at 11:22 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 25-Oct-2019 at 11:22 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 25-Oct-2019 at 11:11 AM.

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// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

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OlafS25 
Re: What do you want from Amiga
Posted on 25-Oct-2019 11:32:33
#34 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5615
From: Unknown

@KimmoK

I agree that many programs include software that most average users never use (mostly not even know that those exist). Typical example is MS Office.

You could have a office package with much lower requirements that is easier to use and would run easily on any amiga platform. But for that you need someone writing such a package and even then there is the problem the people know the bloated packages. Average users dislike changes. And of course you need modern interfaces to exchange data.

Final Writer will be coming but it shows (as other examples) how complicated it is to port amiga sources to the different platforms. It would be better to use existing sources to offer updated software even if it means that it will never run native on PPC or whatelse except 68k. It would also create incentives for 68k users (the vast majority) to buy it. Personal Paint was in that sense a disappointment because I am not interested in PPC. And there were no real updates regarding functionality if you look at it from the view of a 68k user. And the other sources bought by aeon are for me lost products and I do not expect new versions. The community should concentrate on 68k...

Last edited by OlafS25 on 25-Oct-2019 at 11:39 AM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 25-Oct-2019 at 11:38 AM.

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BigD 
Re: What do you want from Amiga
Posted on 25-Oct-2019 12:14:01
#35 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5032
From: UK

@OlafS25

Quote:
And the other sources bought by aeon are for me lost products


What do you mean by that? Surely it's possible to rerelease them / update them? Heck someone claims to have seen A-EON's ImageFX boxed product at Amiga34 (unconfirmed by AmigaKit).

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terminills 
Re: What do you want from Amiga
Posted on 25-Oct-2019 13:05:06
#36 ]
AROS Core Developer
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 1376
From: Unknown

@OlafS25

Quote:
Final Writer will be coming but it shows (as other examples) how complicated it is to port amiga sources to the different platforms.




Actually yes it is more complicated to port across the platforms but not as complicated as you would make it out to be. Finalwriter had issues with old programing mentalities that needed to be updated for modern systems.

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BigD 
Re: What do you want from Amiga
Posted on 25-Oct-2019 13:07:59
#37 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5032
From: UK

@terminills

Quote:
Finalwriter had issues with old programing mentalities that needed to be updated for modern systems.


You use the past tense. When is the release date?

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Lou 
Re: What do you want from Amiga
Posted on 25-Oct-2019 13:33:50
#38 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 3996
From: Rhode Island

ARM needs to be the unifying platform.

Port everything to ARM. Emulate PPC & 68K.

Stop dependency on dead end and/or over-priced hardware.

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KimmoK 
Re: What do you want from Amiga
Posted on 25-Oct-2019 13:44:37
#39 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5160
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@Lou

>ARM needs to be the unifying platform.
>Port everything to ARM. Emulate PPC & 68K.

Need to make sure the 2D+3D+audio etc. driver developer documentation is openly available for the target system.

>Stop dependency on dead end and/or over-priced hardware.

The niche can not support many HW variants.

Is there PCIe capable ARM boards readily available?
(we have know how vs RadeonHD driver development in the developer community)

(doubt any custom ARM board would be cheaper than custom PPC board)

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// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
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Lou 
Re: What do you want from Amiga
Posted on 25-Oct-2019 13:57:31
#40 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 3996
From: Rhode Island

@KimmoK

I can hack on a PCIe port onto a Raspberry Pi 4 for ~$100.
Besides, the stock gpu can stream 4k video - what PPC hardware is doing that?
...for $35...

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