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      /  We're being beaten to the punch again
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Samurai_Crow 
We're being beaten to the punch again
Posted on 14-Nov-2019 2:35:36
#1 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2003
Posts: 2195
From: Ft. Collins, Colorado, USA

https://hacks.mozilla.org/2019/11/announcing-the-bytecode-alliance/

If we had gotten over our intraplatform infighting and gotten together with each other (Amiga Inc. included) we'd have been ahead of the ballgame now. Bytecode Alliance includes Red Hat but not Microsoft or Google.

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DiscreetFX 
Re: We're being beaten to the punch again
Posted on 14-Nov-2019 9:33:56
#2 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Feb-2003
Posts: 1794
From: Chicago, IL

@Samurai_Crow

Interesting stuff.

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Steady 
Re: We're being beaten to the punch again
Posted on 15-Nov-2019 2:31:57
#3 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 1-Nov-2004
Posts: 174
From: Melbourne, OZ

@Samurai_Crow

Very interesting.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: We're being beaten to the punch again
Posted on 15-Nov-2019 17:40:42
#4 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11221
From: Norway

@Samurai_Crow

«beaten to the punch» let’s get one thing clear we are not the people who can dictate standards, we are people trying to catch up to everyone else’s standard. and always have to stay one step behind, becouse once we catch up, its changed again.

This kind thing I noticed I think first on Android where you see what program did what, and you agree to or disagree to installing based on what program needed access too. It's doable whit scripts, and its doable whit token based languages

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 15-Nov-2019 at 07:51 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 15-Nov-2019 at 07:49 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 15-Nov-2019 at 05:45 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 15-Nov-2019 at 05:42 PM.

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Samurai_Crow 
Re: We're being beaten to the punch again
Posted on 15-Nov-2019 19:09:49
#5 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2003
Posts: 2195
From: Ft. Collins, Colorado, USA

@NutsAboutAmiga

AmigaDE predated Android by a few years and this standard by almost 20 years.

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Kronos 
Re: We're being beaten to the punch again
Posted on 15-Nov-2019 19:14:25
#6 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2204
From: Unknown

@Samurai_Crow

Quote:

we'd have been ahead of the ballgame now. .


Who is "we" and what exactly was "the ballgame".


The only thing somewhat related I can see is AmigaDE but thats also makes no sense, cos:

- Apart from putting a name-sticker on it it had no connection to "Amiga"

- It was really just TAO's product

- TAO would have failed with or without Amino

- AInc never had any intention to really bring any relevant tech to the market

- AInc only did what was needed to look big so the could cash in in an IPO(scam)

- When that failed the started scamming users.


-> never even a remote chance that anything "Amiga" could have been at the center of a global standard.

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Samurai_Crow 
Re: We're being beaten to the punch again
Posted on 15-Nov-2019 19:57:41
#7 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2003
Posts: 2195
From: Ft. Collins, Colorado, USA

@Kronos

That's the Amiga Inc. intraplatform infighting I'm referring to. Tao Elate and Amiga Inc.'s partnership included AmigaE author Dr. Wouter van Oortmerssen who wrote the Sheep language included with AmigaDE. Other Amigans were involved since day 1 also. I don't know what kind of voodoo you practice divining what Amiga Inc. started out as but by the end they were quite a nasty mess.

@Amiga parties

Can the parties still involved in this mess at least get on the bandwagon of the open source bytecode standard today?

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: We're being beaten to the punch again
Posted on 15-Nov-2019 20:09:32
#8 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11221
From: Norway

@Samurai_Crow

Quote:
Can the parties still involved in this mess at least get on the bandwagon of the open source bytecode standard today?


you need to virtualize Amiga first, that kind done whit EUAE, but not really too tied to the hardware, the AROS API is not a wrapper, it has way too many things included, and it’s depends on shared memory old style messaging, and shared lists and structs.

So something new needs to be in place to do this, and I guess that might as well be a standard that everyone else going for like WebAssembly, so we can just wait for the big companies to do the work..

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 16-Nov-2019 at 09:55 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 16-Nov-2019 at 09:54 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 15-Nov-2019 at 08:17 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 15-Nov-2019 at 08:16 PM.

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Samurai_Crow 
Re: We're being beaten to the punch again
Posted on 15-Nov-2019 21:01:33
#9 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2003
Posts: 2195
From: Ft. Collins, Colorado, USA

@NutsAboutAmiga

I agree except that WebAssembly is the bytecode in question and it already puts JavaScript to shame in the browser. Pulling it out of the browser is a good thing too. This could render the browser obsolete after a while even.

Note also that this Bytecode Alliance IS the big companies doing the work for us.

This fills the same void that Hollywood's bytecode could have filled. I wonder if Andreas Falkenhahn is into this.

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OneTimer1 
Re: We're being beaten to the punch again
Posted on 15-Nov-2019 22:28:54
#10 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 3-Aug-2015
Posts: 560
From: Unknown

@Samurai_Crow

Meaningless

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Samurai_Crow 
Re: We're being beaten to the punch again
Posted on 16-Nov-2019 4:41:45
#11 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2003
Posts: 2195
From: Ft. Collins, Colorado, USA

@OneTimer1

Quote:

OneTimer1 wrote:
@Samurai_Crow

Meaningless


...a chasing after the wind. (Excerpt from the biblical book of Ecclesiastes).

Back when Microsoft had a near monopoly, this would have been useful. Now? Maybe for third-party POSIX OS like Haiku but not Amiga. (Sigh.)

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Kronos 
Re: We're being beaten to the punch again
Posted on 16-Nov-2019 9:18:40
#12 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2204
From: Unknown

@Samurai_Crow

Quote:


That's the Amiga Inc. intraplatform infighting I'm referring to.



Nope, thats just pointing out the obvious. One could argue wether Amino was just incompetence or bad intentions with my guess being both, but one can never argue that those clowns would ever been able to produce anything worthwhile.

Heck what little development they did pretty much stopped when the got evicted from their office, longe before red vs. blue, PPC vs. x86 or NG vs. classic had any impact.

Quote:
Tao Elate and Amiga Inc.'s partnership included AmigaE author Dr. Wouter van Oortmerssen who wrote the Sheep language included with AmigaDE. Other Amigans were involved since day 1 also.


I'd say there are about 1000 "Amigians" as important as that guy still active in IT, hence by that logic you'd have a hard time finding anything that doesn't have an Amiga connection

Quote:

I don't know what kind of voodoo you practice divining what Amiga Inc. started out as but by the end they were quite a nasty mess.


Plenty of evidence pointing in that direction even with out Barry outright admitting it when drunk (which he did)

Quote:

@Amiga parties

Can the parties still involved in this mess at least get on the bandwagon of the open source bytecode standard today?


To what point? So I can run Amiga in a browser (I can already do that) or so I can run applets in OWB (most of which will turn out to be adds and downright malware just as it did with Flash)?

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Samurai_Crow 
Re: We're being beaten to the punch again
Posted on 17-Nov-2019 2:50:43
#13 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2003
Posts: 2195
From: Ft. Collins, Colorado, USA

@Kronos

The Bytecode Alliance is about running WebAssembly outside of the browser to eliminate overhead or someday, the need of a browser at all.

The rest of what you say seems about right though. (Sigh.)

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Kronos 
Re: We're being beaten to the punch again
Posted on 17-Nov-2019 10:40:48
#14 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2204
From: Unknown

@Samurai_Crow

Did they ever hear of Java ?






yawn

Last edited by Kronos on 17-Nov-2019 at 12:41 PM.

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simplex 
Re: We're being beaten to the punch again
Posted on 17-Nov-2019 11:18:10
#15 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Oct-2003
Posts: 786
From: Hattiesburg, MS

@Kronos

You mean the proprietary language that has dominated the programming language charts for decades, despite being controlled by a lawsuit-happy company?

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Kronos 
Re: We're being beaten to the punch again
Posted on 17-Nov-2019 11:56:15
#16 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2204
From: Unknown

@simplex

*shrug*



I still don't get why "we" "are beaten to the punch" by any of this.

Maybe we need another car analogy for it:

20 years ago some 3rd grade chop-shop ripped the engine out of old Golf_II, installed a bunch of lead batteries and a motor from the junkyard and called it revolution in motoring.

Guess they are now beaten to the punch by Tesla

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simplex 
Re: We're being beaten to the punch again
Posted on 18-Nov-2019 21:38:38
#17 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Oct-2003
Posts: 786
From: Hattiesburg, MS

@Kronos

Shrug dismissively at Java's success all you want; I can, too, but shrugging isn't an argument. The absence of Java was certainly an impediment for some people to use the Amiga, and Android's use of Java doesn't seem to have hurt its progress in the market one whit.

As for being "beaten to the punch"; I didn't really get SamuraiCrow's point there, myself, except perhaps that an outfit that once bore the Amiga name proposed a product vaguely similar to what the WebAssembly group is proposing. Honestly, I think they proposed something closer to Android's API's, but unlike Google they were dumb enough not to steal someone else's API; they tried paying for it, then selling it to a world that either didn't get it or didn't care. Sort of like Commodore paid quite a bit to whoever it was that held the XOR patent -- money that could have kept them afloat.

As for the Golf analogy, that isn't very clever of you, either. On the one hand, battery-powered cars have been around since before Henry Ford's wife was driving one; Tesla doesn't claim to have invented it, and they wouldn't be dumb enough to, since Saturn Corporation was mass-producing a battery-powered car back in the 90s, and there's a reason those didn't stick around. What Tesla has done is a lot stronger than what you suggest -- but it might not be enough, either.

On the other hand, even Java and WebAssembly byte code are not particularly revolutionary in and of themselves. As just one example, P-code was in common use in the 70s and early 80s. But Java did make it possible to run useful software on multiple systems at once, which was especially nice when the internet was getting started, and WebAssembly byte code hopes to take this idea & remove it from the proprietary domain of Oracle, the same way HTML5 has pretty much killed Flash.

That would be something to cheer about, not to shrug at.

Last edited by simplex on 18-Nov-2019 at 09:45 PM.

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Kronos 
Re: We're being beaten to the punch again
Posted on 19-Nov-2019 16:53:50
#18 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2204
From: Unknown

@simplex

Your kinda funny, 1st you claim my car-analogy was stupid and then you go on making all the points for it....

Inten/AmigaDE for sure wasn't the 1st "write once run everywhere" attempt (Basic comes to mind) and the Webassembly guys hopefully don't claim to have invented it.

So yeah spot on 2bit backalley company making something that is 100% useless but can be marketed as great invention, and some other for real company/organization doing it "right" 15 years later.

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Samurai_Crow 
Re: We're being beaten to the punch again
Posted on 20-Nov-2019 3:01:29
#19 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2003
Posts: 2195
From: Ft. Collins, Colorado, USA

Update:

https://bytecodealliance.org/ is up and has many questions answered on their page. Their standard is POSIX: Linux and Unix based for starters. Win10 is supported but not earlier versions. Mac is not mentioned but coders and organizations are welcome to join. Code generator is x86-64 only at this point due to the dependency on Mozilla's Cranelift compiler framework written in Rust.

Last edited by Samurai_Crow on 20-Nov-2019 at 03:02 AM.
Last edited by Samurai_Crow on 20-Nov-2019 at 03:01 AM.

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