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ppcamiga1 
Amiga NG Third Generation - a viable way
Posted on 20-Nov-2019 21:19:11
#1 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 165
From: Unknown

Amiga NG Third Generation - a viable way

Since the "attracting outside developers" "Third gen Amiga" and threads derailed as usually with discussion about modernizing Amiga,
I'm starting a new thread. Now I'm going to pose a few questions:

Why AROS on x86 failed?

Should Amiga NG Third Generation be bi-endian like AROS? Little endian? Or endian agnostic?

Should Amiga NG Third Generation abandon the Exec.library kernel?

Who will supply drivers?

How to attract outside developers?

Should Amiga-like be Open Source?

What Amiga NG Third Generation should be?

How to do it?

My thoughts on it:

Why AROS on x86 failed?

Compatybility.

Main problem of amiga community is that many people in amiga community
fool themselves that a change of cpu to x86 or ARM does not change anything when in fact a
change of cpu to x86 or ARM changes everything.
It is simple. Amiga Os 1.x API was designed when all 32 bit cpu was big endian and is cpu dependent.
Amiga Os 1.x API works only on cpu that can work in 32 bit big endian mode.
Amiga Os 1.x API depends on sharing memory between os and apps.
Apps peek and poke into os and other apps. All used data they are expect are in 32 bit big endian mode.
Only cpu that may work in 32 bit big endian mode are source and binary compatible with Amiga Os 1.x API at the some time.
One exception is some ugly hacks to gcc for amithlon but that sometime not work and slowdown cpu.

Quality.

It is not possible to provide compatible software without testing with 68k software.
After twenty three years after first source release AROS still has not Amiga compatible gui.

Competition.

Many AROS x86 developers and users thinks that on x86 they not compete with windows, linux and os x. This is dumb.
In real life nobody will wait a hour on AROS x86 to render scene in raytracing software
instead of five minuts on win/lnx/osx on the same computer,
just because AROS x86 has not drivers that support CUDA.
In real life nobody will wait a whole day on AROS x86 to process movie
instead of five minuts on win/lnx/osx on the same computer,
just because AROS x86 has not drivers that support DXVA or VDPAU.
AROS x86 has crappy drivers that are teen time slower than drivers for win/lnx/osx.
In real life nobody will optimize software that use 3D for example game,
when just switch to win/lnx/osx will result in ten times more fps.
Maybe some extreme fanatics, maybe first time, maybe second, but at third time they switch to os with
proper graphics card support on the same computer.

Should Amiga NG Third Generation be bi-endian like AROS? Little endian? Or endian agnostic?

Amiga NG Third Generation should be software solution, endian agnostic.
Everyone should be able to use Amiga NG Third Generation on any hardware that they want.
Developers/Users want to use Amiga NG Third Generation on PowerPC?
It is ok. On 68k with MMU? Also ok. On x86 or ARM? Ok.
We do not need another split in our community.
So, no big or little endian but endian agnostic.

Should Amiga-like systems abandon the Exec.library kernel?

Who will supply drivers?

Exec and entire Amiga Os 1.x API which means anything below gui and graphics,
is not endian agonostic and works only on 32 bit big endian cpu.
As was explained, after change cpu to little endian,
Amiga Os 1.x API will be not original API, but original API in the mirror.
Nobody need it and there is no problem to dropp it.

Java require separate adress spaces for threads support.

Nvidia make only drivers for windows and unix (osx,lnx,bsd).

Open Source community ask Nvidia for documentation for many years,
but Nvidia do not release documentation for their graphics cards and make only closed source binaty drivers.
Open source drivers for Nvidia cards called noveau used also in AROS x86 are worth hothing crap
slower at least ten times than Nvidia commercial closed source binary drivers.
Noveau is so slow so 3D work faster even on mac G5 win Radeon 9600 than AROS x86 on supported NVidia cards.
3D is slower on native AROS x86 than uae which is able to use host 3D drivers.
Some x86 followers in our community often lie about performance of AROS, but it is road to nowhere.
It is something that will soon be discovered.
So if We want something usable, not worse uae like AROS x86, We have to drop Exec.

If We want new users and developers We have to drop exec and everything below gui and graphics,
and replace it unix.

How to attract outside developers?

To get outside programmers interested, Amiga community have to provide something which:

1. is hardware agnostic
2. has memory protection
3. has unix compatibility
4. has good quality drivers
5. is open source

Should Amiga-like be Open Source?

Developers outside our community trust more open source solutions, independent of any company.

What Amiga NG Third Generation should be?

Nice, lightweight, software only solution, that everyone may use on what ever hardware want, at any time.
With memory protection, good quality drivers, with all necessary tools avaible.
This means Amiga gui and graphics on top of unix.

How to do it?

AROS x86 and AROS ARM are worth nothing because they are not binary compatible with 68k software and have not memory protection.
AROS x86 also has outdated super slow drivers, more outdated and slower than drivers current ppc solutions.
AROS x86 and AROS ARM should be canceled.
Saved resources should be used to add 68k binary compatybility layer to AROS PPC.
It allows to find errors in zune and fix it.
After few years when zune will be worth of use, it can be ported to unix.
Then We will have something that really deserve to be called Amiga NG Third Generation.
Something that may be used by new people outside our community.

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sTix 
Re: Amiga NG Third Generation - a viable way
Posted on 20-Nov-2019 22:32:12
#2 ]
Member
Joined: 22-Oct-2003
Posts: 80
From: Lund, Sweden

@ppcamiga1

That is perhaps the most dull vision I've seen so far. It makes AmigaDE look sexy.

I think you should take it one step further though; the driver situation on Linux (I assume that's what you're referring to) is also "crap" compared to Windows. Why not go for that instead? Zune on .NET perhaps? Lots of potential Amiga developers in that space. They might be interested in a new GUI framework.

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Samurai_Crow 
Re: Amiga NG Third Generation - a viable way
Posted on 21-Nov-2019 0:34:22
#3 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2003
Posts: 2176
From: Ft. Collins, Colorado, USA

@ppcamiga1

Re:ARM AROS

There are 2 versions of ARM AROS. The newer ARM EB AROS is big endian and has a 68k JIT just like Petunia on OS4 and Trance on MorphOS.

The rest of your arguments I have yet to read but cancelling AMD64 AROS would lose Kalamatee, one of the most prolific developers on the AROS team, and cause development to slow even more. The budget of AROS isn't money, it's developer interest.

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Argo 
Re: Amiga NG Third Generation - a viable way
Posted on 21-Nov-2019 7:46:23
#4 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 307
From: St. Lawrence Co., NY, USA

@ppcamiga1

Why do you have hardon to kill AROS
AROS on PPC is dead
PPC is dead
ARM and X86/64 is the way forward
68K is great for running old software, but it is the past
AROS lives on the precious little time of its precious few developers
AROS only competes with Amiga OS, if you consider it competing with anything
No Schedule n' Rocking

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BigD 
Re: Amiga NG Third Generation - a viable way
Posted on 21-Nov-2019 8:14:35
#5 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5069
From: UK

@Argo

Quote:
PPC is dead


Not quite. New A-EON machines and a laptop under ACube's guidance will be released.

Beyond that Vampire and AROS are fine for dabbling. The court case has stopped a lot of the roadmapping possible at present. We'll see how MorphOS does with an ISA change. Other than that A-EON has it's work cut out with Enhancer, rewritting classic software and actually releasing hardware. Hyperion is in stasis and can barely recompile AmigaOS for different AmigaOne models on a timely basis and Vampire is taking all the cash.

Not much room for vision men like yourself IMHO. Maybe join the ExecSG team if you think you can help 'guide the way'!

P.S. Cancelling AROS x86/64 this late in the day is suicide. It's a valuable fall back if/when Hyperion becomes bankrupt. The Apollo team have already had a use for it on 68k. By cancelling AROS you would lose more Amiga developers not simply redistribute them to do your bidding!

Last edited by BigD on 21-Nov-2019 at 08:54 AM.
Last edited by BigD on 21-Nov-2019 at 08:54 AM.

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terminills 
Re: Amiga NG Third Generation - a viable way
Posted on 21-Nov-2019 11:19:14
#6 ]
AROS Core Developer
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 1385
From: Unknown

@BigD

Quote:
Maybe join the ExecSG team


Unless there has been some major enhancements the AROS kernel is much more advanced than ExecSG.

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paolone 
Re: Amiga NG Third Generation - a viable way
Posted on 21-Nov-2019 12:00:51
#7 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Sep-2007
Posts: 1054
From: Unknown

@ppcamiga1

Whilist I generally consider repeating twice, three or more time, the same stuff in different topics an abuse (mainly of other people's patience), some of your arguments deserve other answers (by the way: if you already know answers, why are you repeating the same questions over and over again?).

Quote:

ppcamiga1 wrote:
Amiga NG Third Generation - a viable way

Since the "attracting outside developers" "Third gen Amiga" and threads derailed as usually with discussion about modernizing Amiga,
I'm starting a new thread. Now I'm going to pose a few questions:

Why AROS on x86 failed?


Because people have been dumb. Don't look at me that way: you made a provocative question, I'm giving you a provocative answer.

As I said many many times, when the AROS project was born back in 1995, the Amiga community had the knowledge, the numbers, the people and the money to take the huge task of rewriting AmigaOS and enhancing it in a open-source fashion, but not only declined the invitation: it even fought it as much as it could, frightened by the idea that the open-source effort would drain resources and blood from those almost-vapourware companies which made their equally ill-fated OSes for pathetically slow and ridiculously costy exotic PPC-based motherboards, or older Macs becoming obsolete. And nothing, absolutely nothing made them change mind.

No matter if their silly, pointless, futile war against standards (IDE? Puah, let's go SCSI... oh no, well, IDE is good), processors ("look at my INTEL OUTSIDE logo? isn't it cute?"), operating systems (Windows is crap, Linux is crap...), common sense (We could choose this cheap, commodity and well known solution: but why? let's dream about that exotic option instead) was DOOMED FROM START, Amigans always dreamt about the commercially not-viable, unknown, rare, niche solutions, in every field, and I absolutely don't understand why.

Are you proposing a Linux-kernel based solution? You'll get a big "NO!": Amigans will list you at least a dozen of rarest alternatives, with absolutely NO TECHNICAL KNLOWLEDGE about them. Just because 'they are DIFFERENT'.

I have a hint for you all: 'different' does NOT necessarily mean 'better'.

Quote:

Should Amiga NG Third Generation be bi-endian like AROS? Little endian? Or endian agnostic?


It doesn't matter, for the very simple reason there won't be any 'third generation' Amiga platform. Unless someone picks up the name rights and creates something out of it, completely different from what we're all accustomed to.

Quote:

Should Amiga NG Third Generation abandon the Exec.library kernel?


Obviously. It's utter crap for today's standards. We're not in 1985 anymore: even Windows and Linux kernels are not the ones of 30 years ago.

Quote:

Who will supply drivers?
How to attract outside developers?


It depends.

Quote:

Should Amiga-like be Open Source?


Obviously, yes. But more than opened, sources of AmigaOS should be opened and placed in a 'museum', for educational purposes, like it happened for other very old Mac and PC projects sources. The fact that 30+ years old code is still considered 'commercially viable' is simply PATHETIC.

Quote:

What Amiga NG Third Generation should be?


Something that probably doesn't even work on computers, but on different devices (to come).

Quote:


Many AROS x86 developers and users thinks that on x86 they not compete with windows, linux and os x. This is dumb.
In real life nobody will wait a hour on AROS x86 to render scene in raytracing software
instead of five minuts on win/lnx/osx on the same computer,
just because AROS x86 has not drivers that support CUDA.
In real life nobody will wait a whole day on AROS x86 to process movie
instead of five minuts on win/lnx/osx on the same computer,
just because AROS x86 has not drivers that support DXVA or VDPAU.
AROS x86 has crappy drivers that are teen time slower than drivers for win/lnx/osx.
In real life nobody will optimize software that use 3D for example game,
when just switch to win/lnx/osx will result in ten times more fps.
Maybe some extreme fanatics, maybe first time, maybe second, but at third time they switch to os with
proper graphics card support on the same computer.


This is the only part where I can really agree with you. That's why Icaros provides HostBridge after all, and that's why I am silently working on a more integrated Linux+Icaros solution.

Quote:

AROS x86 and AROS ARM are worth nothing because they are not binary compatible with 68k software and have not memory protection.
AROS x86 also has outdated super slow drivers, more outdated and slower than drivers current ppc solutions.
AROS x86 and AROS ARM should be canceled.
Saved resources should be used to add 68k binary compatybility layer to AROS PPC.
It allows to find errors in zune and fix it.
After few years when zune will be worth of use, it can be ported to unix.
Then We will have something that really deserve to be called Amiga NG Third Generation.
Something that may be used by new people outside our community.


Here's the same, pathetic, silly sad song about how people should use their free time in your opinion. Who would decide that someone working on x86-based AROS would work on 68K or any 'more compatible to 68k' instead? Or on "zunifying Unix"? You? By the way, AROS on PPC had been completely pointless, just a little more than the whole "Amiga going PPC" journey had been. But it helped increasing hardware support and fixing bugs, LIKE EVERY AROS VERSION DID.

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KimmoK 
Re: Amiga NG Third Generation - a viable way
Posted on 21-Nov-2019 12:39:37
#8 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5177
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@ppcamiga1

draft version of my thoughts:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/14Y3H0UY-0adiU2xG_xyP4H61DreP2Zw0/view?usp=sharing

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

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OlafS25 
Re: Amiga NG Third Generation - a viable way
Posted on 21-Nov-2019 13:49:37
#9 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5638
From: Unknown

@KimmoK

Wow

and yes

In a perfect world all camps would have worked together with a common technical base but different houses (desktops) on it. What happened was a huge waste of resources and incompatible APIs.

Finally a loose for everyone

but as I wrote "in a perfect world"

and yes all platforms are heading in different directions (regarding hardware)

AROS future will be mainly on ARM and 68k
MorphOS will be on AMD64
and AmigaOS will stay on PPC

Last edited by OlafS25 on 21-Nov-2019 at 01:53 PM.

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IridiumFX 
Re: Amiga NG Third Generation - a viable way
Posted on 21-Nov-2019 13:54:56
#10 ]
Member
Joined: 7-Apr-2017
Posts: 23
From: London, UK

I like the fact that in our community we always end up having the illuminated genius willing to decide the fate and task of "the developers" according to his own wishlist.

Can't we just enjoy what we have?

Amiga OS is fantastic, so is AmigaOS 4, I love AROS, especially Icaros that lets me install & use it without spending an evening in configs and downloads.
I liked to toy with MorphOS on an iBook G4. To my regret I never managed to get it to run on two G5 machines which I gave away as useless because of that.
WinUAE is on every PC I have (yes, including Amiga Forever).
I confess I am getting intrigued by Amithlon as well.

Do you really need more variety than this?
Well, bring it on. The more, the merrier.

But please, pretty please: Stop commanding and start Coding

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terminills 
Re: Amiga NG Third Generation - a viable way
Posted on 21-Nov-2019 14:05:45
#11 ]
AROS Core Developer
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 1385
From: Unknown

@IridiumFX

Quote:


by IridiumFX on 21-Nov-2019 8:54:56

I like the fact that in our community we always end up having the illuminated genius willing to decide the fate and task of "the developers" according to his own wishlist.

Can't we just enjoy what we have?

Amiga OS is fantastic, so is AmigaOS 4, I love AROS, especially Icaros that lets me install & use it without spending an evening in configs and downloads.
I liked to toy with MorphOS on an iBook G4. To my regret I never managed to get it to run on two G5 machines which I gave away as useless because of that.
WinUAE is on every PC I have (yes, including Amiga Forever).
I confess I am getting intrigued by Amithlon as well.

Do you really need more variety than this?
Well, bring it on. The more, the merrier.

But please, pretty please: Stop commanding and start Coding



I wish we had a like button for this.

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BigD 
Re: Amiga NG Third Generation - a viable way
Posted on 21-Nov-2019 15:16:41
#12 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5069
From: UK

@terminills

Quote:
Unless there has been some major enhancements the AROS kernel is much more advanced than ExecSG.


All the more reason to work on it then to get it up to speed!

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sTix 
Re: Amiga NG Third Generation - a viable way
Posted on 21-Nov-2019 16:13:22
#13 ]
Member
Joined: 22-Oct-2003
Posts: 80
From: Lund, Sweden

@IridiumFX

I couldn't agree more.

I think the diversity, quirkiness and, to some extent, the drama in this community is what keeps it alive. IMHO the worst thing we could do, is to go down the sane path, it would lead to pure boredom. If you want to attract developers, the last thing you should do is to provide something that reminds them too much of their daytime job.

@ppcamiga1

Why not start experimenting with AROS hosted? It's obvious that you're not particularly fond of AROS, but given what you want to achieve, it should be your best friend.

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bison 
Re: Amiga NG Third Generation - a viable way
Posted on 21-Nov-2019 17:17:16
#14 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1500
From: N-Space

@paolone

Quote:
But more than opened, sources of AmigaOS should be opened and placed in a 'museum', for educational purposes, like it happened for other very old Mac and PC projects sources.

That would be nice. Something like Lion's Commentary on Unix, but for the Amiga. The source would have to be cleaned up a lot to make it useful for study.

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Zylesea 
Re: Amiga NG Third Generation - a viable way
Posted on 22-Nov-2019 0:59:33
#15 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 16-Mar-2004
Posts: 2165
From: Ostwestfalen, FRG

Quote:


Quote:
PPC is dead


Not quite. New A-EON machines and a laptop under ACube's guidance will be released.



ppc is alive as the northern white rhino...

_________________
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MorphOS user since V0.4 (2001)

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agami 
Re: Amiga NG Third Generation - a viable way
Posted on 22-Nov-2019 7:07:06
#16 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 555
From: Melbourne, Australia

@ppcamiga1
I've gone on the record before and I'll happily do it here again.

AROS failed the same way 100+ other operating systems have failed to gather enough developer/user base. They are obscure and esoteric. The development tools are not powerful enough, and there are no compelling apps. And apart from curiosity, what is the end goal?

Don't get me wrong, I love what the folks involved with AROS have been doing, and with some serious funding there could be quite the interesting product there. But funding is the same as time, why spend $n on AROS, when there are better returns elsewhere.

Operating systems the way most Amiga die-hards think of them are very last century. Very few people care what the OS is on a PS4 or XBox One. It's about ecosystems and environments. Fully realised platforms.

With the right development tools, nobody should care which endian a platform is. We can all geek out about the obscure tech behind the scenes, but for the vast majority of developers the attraction is having good development tools, APIs, and SDKs which allow for rapid application/game development. And a ready marketplace to commercialise their efforts.

Amiga NG should be in spirit only. There is absolutely nothing appealing to a non-Amigan about making the next Amiga more like AmigaOS 4, or 3. Abandon everything I say (and I've said it before). You want to have an Amiga inspired system as even a minor player in the 3rd computer revolution, you have to give up the legacy.

Initially drivers to support major component providers would be commissioned by the venture that is backing the true next gen of platforms. Apple did this as it clawed back from the brink in the late '90s and early 2000s. You pay AMD to write the GPU drivers. You provide the systems, and even offer to embed some of your own developers with the driver team to help things along.

Once there is a user and developer base, then having a driver API for others to freely implement will take care of the rest.

"If you build it, they will come". Like any creative urge, developers are drawn to the platform that helps them realise their vision. That was the same for Amiga when it first came out. Developers started imagining all the things they could create with the new system. Nothing has changed in that regard. It's the reason people are drawn to iOS and Android, and Raspberry Pi, and Arduino: They see the system as a way to make real that which they dream.

And of course, if developers can make some money with their manifestations, then that's a huge bonus and an incentive for those that were waiting on the sidelines.

Rather than be a late comer to the 2nd computer revolution, the new system would be an early entrant in the 3rd computer revolution. It may have parts of the ecosystem open, but to make it completely open source would be a poor choice. When the 3rd computer revolution reaches a maturity and proliferation level that personal computers did by 1995, then making things completely open source would make sense. Initially though, the value of the system would in large part rest in its IP.

The new system would carry on the spirit of the Amiga and help usher in the 3rd computer revolution. It would provide a completely new computing paradigm. Challenge conventions and break with tradition. It can only be a broad-spectrum operating environment. Personal computing as we know it will be gone in 10 years. The goal is to "skate where the puck is going". This ISA vs that, endianness, backend, frontend, server, client, desktop, mobile: None of these terms will be relevant.

How to do it?
That is the quintessential question. All of the other stuff is otherwise just academic.
In my business plan it starts with about a $10m seed fund to develop the new computing paradigms that would initially piggy-back on top of the existing platforms: Windows, macOS, Linux, iOS, Android, etc. The team would create the new ecosystem, the new "language" for building and deploying in this new ecosystem, and build the proprietary sub-systems that would manage it all. (2-3 years)

Once that is achieved, new rounds of funding would be sought to make the new ecosystem no longer require piggy-backing and have it deployed on it's own, supporting a substantial variety of hardware. This next phase would require somewhere in the realm of $100m. 50% of that would be used to define and develop a new hardware reference ecosystem and prototypes. This is also where money would be spent to gather all the key driver support required for success. (3-4 years).

Phase 3 = Profit.
All those investors would like to see the returns on their investment. Licensing of proprietary tech, licensing to hardware partners for developing and marketing the hardware based on the reference platform, and % of commercialisation of apps in the ecosystem.

In 10 years, the ecosystem would be worth at least $1B worldwide. Guided by the pioneering spirit that gave the world the Amiga, but called something else, and I'm sure someone would write an emulator so that the nostalgic crowd can fire up DPaint or Shadow of the Beast.

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KimmoK 
Re: Amiga NG Third Generation - a viable way
Posted on 22-Nov-2019 7:35:11
#17 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5177
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

Tiny updated to my draft response:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/14Y3H0UY-0adiU2xG_xyP4H61DreP2Zw0/view?usp=sharing

(adding my ideas for "developer attracting")

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// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

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Argo 
Re: Amiga NG Third Generation - a viable way
Posted on 22-Nov-2019 8:45:50
#18 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 307
From: St. Lawrence Co., NY, USA

@BigD

Cancel AROS, that's Rich and impossible It will go on irrespective of anything else as always
Slow and steady wins the race, though AROS isn't even in the race so I guess there isn't one
It's just off doing its own thing as it always has and the other project will take from it what they need as they have in the past

PPC is a deadend, AmigaOS is only alive at the expense of a hobby of a man of means, even after he got screwed over in a joint business venture, a bit of payback maybe

MorphOS is irrelevant

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Deniil715 
Re: Amiga NG Third Generation - a viable way
Posted on 22-Nov-2019 9:03:12
#19 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-May-2003
Posts: 4188
From: Sweden

@ppcamiga1

We only need an up-to-date browser for OS4 and we are fine

Unfortunately, even porting an already ported browser is too much for the remaining developers (like me) to handle. How on earth should we handle all these dreams of a 3rd gen Amiga?

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> Amiga Classic and OS4 developer for OnyxSoft.

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BigD 
Re: Amiga NG Third Generation - a viable way
Posted on 22-Nov-2019 9:34:30
#20 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5069
From: UK

@Deniil715

People are remaking Classic 'miggy PCB and repopulating them from scratch with NOS chips. The classic Amiga is a cottage industry now! It's awesome. All the NG stuff is a bonus. I'll need to see the Tabor in the flesh to believe it's on its way. Any planning beyond current IP court case survival by the companies involved (and A-EON / Stephen Jones etc who are directly affected) is not realistic sadly.

Last edited by BigD on 22-Nov-2019 at 12:04 PM.

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