@ppcamiga1

Quote:

Zero millions of course. The idea is to use AROS x86 developers and members of out community that has problems with ppc to work for free, on necessary improvements of ZUNE to get it to state when it will be compatible with at least MUI 3.8 form 1997, then port it to unix.

You expect AROS developers to work on what you want for free?

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"AROS is prolly illegal ~ Evert Carton" intentionally quoted out of context for dramatic effect

@OlafS25

Quote:

in my view Aros on X86 should concentrate on hosted and on virtual environments because the problem of missing drivers is not solvable, at least not with the extreme limited development resources

Some of us don't want a hosted environment and the second AROS goes to a primary hosted environment with no native support is the day I drop all future funding.

However if you want AROS to go in a specific direction you have three choices. Pay for development, work, Start coding yourself or find a developer who agrees with your viewpoint and is willing to work on it for free.

Last edited by terminills on 25-Nov-2019 at 11:22 AM.

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"AROS is prolly illegal ~ Evert Carton" intentionally quoted out of context for dramatic effect

@terminills

I have only expressed my view

You or anyone else can go in any direction

@Srtest
Quote:

It's almost as if you are going word-for-word about what I suggested regarding ScummVM being the model moving forward, only to be bashed by the likes of you, who are now talking about de-emphasizing the os.

I don't recall your ScummVM concept, and I doubt I bashed it. But if I came down on the negative side at the time, I'm sure it was within context.

The 3rd computer revolution is more than just de-emphasizing the OS. I've been researching and formalising this platform since 2001. It started as just a research paper, but it grew into a much larger project.

Again @Srtest, if my previous comments regarding similar ideas were construed as "bashing", I apologise.

@megol
Quote:

People have burned through much more that $10M in search for a new paradigm, just look at HP's The Machine[sic]. What did that give them? Not much, something that at best combines the practices of today with the nonvolatile memory of yesterday (like core memory).

Many big companies don't know how to think small and nimble, like most startups do. Almost every industry that has been disrupted has been done by upstarts with much less funding. And even when these giants spend stupendous amounts of money, they still can't seem to execute to the same level. There's always a think patina of bureaucracy and shareholder responsibility all over it.

I am very familiar with HP's The Machine initiative. If HP was serious about disrupting its market, then they would've done it. These things are more often showcases designed to attract interest from volume server buyers. If the interest is not there, then they don't pursue it. Many startup would kill for what these large companies write-off in a quarter.

Plus, hardware always costs more than software. Which is why I wouldn't start with hardware.

_________________
All the way, with 68k

@terminills

Quote:

You expect AROS developers to work on what you want for free?

Yes, of course.

To sum it up.
AROS x86 is worth nothing crap that is as slow as ppc NG/uae, is as outdated as ppc/68k Amiga oses,
is not binary compatible with 68k amiga software, and has gui not source compatible with ppc/68k Amiga oses,
without any new software.
There is no reason to it, uae is better.

Why?

Because AROS x86 developers where too stupid to get that they have support 68k/ppc from the beggining
for testing their software with 68k software.
And because they are too stupid to get that breaking binary compatybility with 68k software,
should be used to solve problems like lack of memory protection, unix compatybility, and worth of use drivers.

Who?

AROS x86 developers and these x86 followers that has problems with ppc.

How?

Cancel AROS x86. Get ZUNE to state when it will be compatible with at least MUI 3.8 form 1997, then port it to unix.
Just Amiga gui and graphics on top of unix, everything below should be cut off.

What We get?

Something that at least will be better than uae.
And even very small, it will have some chances to be used by new devs/users outside our community.

@ppcamiga1

Why do you think MUI on a changed Linux would attract developers?

To be modern MUI has to be changed drastically, no chance with MUI from 1997

And you already have lots of desktops on Linux, I do not think they wait for another one. My prediction is... amiga users will not use it because it is not amiga and users outside will not use it because not enough new and no specific software.

Amiga software will not be available too because of no amiga compatible API

@ppcamiga1

Quote:

Cancel AROS x86. Get ZUNE to state when it will be compatible with at least MUI 3.8 form 1997, then port it to unix. Just Amiga gui and graphics on top of unix, everything below should be cut off.

Cancel AROS x86: No, I don't think so. The people who are working on it do so at their own pleasure, and they don't need unsolicited feedback from us on how they should be spending their time. Let people work on what they want, and if it all comes to nothing in the end, then that's how it is.

Zune on Unix: A better UI on Unix/Linux is not a bad idea. There is obviously a dissatisfaction with what is available now, since most Linux respins are based on alternate DEs. But MUI is probably not it. Something new that doesn't carry baggage of the past would be better. It's not like there's a huge repository of MUI software out there waiting to be built.

Last edited by bison on 26-Nov-2019 at 11:25 PM.

_________________
"Unix is supposed to fix that." -- Jay Miner

To continue a little from:
https://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=43514&forum=15&start=40&viewmode=flat&order=0#829164

So, for Amiga FOURTH generation some new ISA most likely need to be taken in use (~in y2028 or so).
Currently AMD64 has the advantage of having built-in Radeon technology, so perhaps we could have native drivers more easily than for Intel/Nvidia/ARM solutions.
Amiga dealer could have one AMD64 motherboard based device that can be sold to Windows and Linux users.
Same board could have WinUAE/ALICE/Berniethlon/Morph/AROS/AmigaOS6 installed, so one board could be sold to wider range of users.

The board should be (needs to be) a long-term-supported industry board or a custom made "Amigan" board with long-available components.

But, IMO, no hurry yet. More important R&D to do on SW before AmigaOS ISA change.
And in the long run, we do not know if x86/A64 survives or if ARM or Risc-V becomes a better (or equal) alternative in the future.

+I do not see IBM giving up on Power Architecture yet... there is very tiny (lottery kind of) possibility of a new embedded Power chip via Open Power partners.
(two...four core 4Ghz Power SoC ... ?
Current in-production example: "Basic Blackbird™ Bundle (4-Core CPU)" Order online for $1,470 https://www.raptorcs.com/content/base/products.html )

-> IMO, it is ok for AmigaOS to continue to THIRD generation (multicore, 36bit, memory protection) with PPC & develop a better future proof APIs (third and fourth generation) + sandbox for SecondGeneration SW binaries.

(AROS and MorphOS will be pioneering alternative ISAs anyway, that is good development towards long term future systems & future of Amiga)


I would love to see (because I'm lazy to do it by myself?):
-study on (current) long term supported x86 motherboards (what exist, what they cost, how long their production and support is planned to last)
-study on (current) ARM boards with PCIe card slots (IMO: Amiga High-end version need to have two PCIe slots)
-study on developing drivers for RPi4 onboard components (IMO: RPi4 is the first model that would seem useful as low-end computer)
-study on ARM driver status for modern Linux vs Radeon and Nvidia 3D cards.

Last edited by KimmoK on 27-Nov-2019 at 10:38 AM.
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Last edited by KimmoK on 27-Nov-2019 at 10:35 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 27-Nov-2019 at 08:35 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 27-Nov-2019 at 08:35 AM.

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

@ppcamiga1

Quote:

@terminills Quote: You expect AROS developers to work on what you want for free? Yes, of course.

If developers are not being paid they have no obligation to work on anything you desire. It's a pretty simple concept.

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Support AROS sponsor a developer.

"AROS is prolly illegal ~ Evert Carton" intentionally quoted out of context for dramatic effect

@terminills

That is not entirely true but you sure got a point :)

@all

The fact is that AROS is almost not being developed anymore. Almost everyone left. It is at least left in a quite good state. On the right hardware it is a stable OS.
It is the software that can be unstable just like on classic AmigaOS.

I don't understand much of what you want from NG AmigaOS. There are 3 alternatives. They all have their strong and weak points. What they all share is that they are outdated compared to modern operative systems and no money in the world will change that. Be happy about what it is or move on.

Amiga Classic live fine with Amiga OS 3.1 for 30 years! and still do.

Make some good native software!! that is what is needed.

Last edited by nikosidis on 27-Nov-2019 at 11:25 AM.
Last edited by nikosidis on 27-Nov-2019 at 11:23 AM.

@nikosidis

no development is not entirely true

there is activity but only regarding ARM and 68k

on X86 (or AMD64) development has stopped

@OlafS25

AROS 68k, yes. ARM I lost belive in. One Developer is not enough.

AROS 68k still have a way to go and with classic AmigaOS being updated it will probably be a day where Vampire hardware and classic AmigaOS will join forces.
Vampire will be Amiga branded. It all just make scence.
Even Hyperion understood that it is in the classic the moneys at.

@nikosidis

I have donated for the developer who is updating Amos to support AGA (and more)

this makes sense to me because it will help to get more unique software (here games)

software finally decides, people do not buy hardware or OS

at 68k I have hopes to get at least some unique software. I do not see that on NG

I am not as pessimistic as you regarding Aros 68k. It offers advantages compared to 3.1 and it can be developed and adapted. I do not see that on 3.1. And it includes components not existing on 3.1 with good API compatibility. But yes it needs improvements, expecially regarding speed on real 68k hardware and some bugs sorted out.

Last edited by OlafS25 on 27-Nov-2019 at 11:57 AM.

@ppcamiga1

Quote:

Because AROS x86 developers where too stupid to get that they have support 68k/ppc from the beggining for testing their software with 68k software. And because they are too stupid to get that breaking binary compatybility with 68k software,

first you want the developers to ensure compatibility, just to break it as a second step? sounds dumb to me. probably just looking for whatever reason to bash people and call them names.

Quote:

Cancel AROS x86.

you dont need to cancel any particular platform, since aros supports a number of them alongside. yes, even ppc and it is working. i checked it in qemu.

Quote:

Just Amiga gui and graphics on top of unix, everything below should be cut off.

as others said, simply take hosted. other than that you should have supported arix (or anubis), since this is/was even more than what you want. you didnt, right?

@OlafS25

Sure. You are 100% correct.
I will also donate to AMOS AGA. This is what we need to support.
Classic is where it all happen.
New quality game, demos released recent years.

Check out this fantastic game coming up called Inviiya. Search on Facebook and you follow the progress. Demo will be released in 2 weeks and the full game beginning of NeXT year.

Deamon Claw from bitbeamcannon.

https://bitbeamcannon.com/daemonclaw/

Rotator

http://www.psytronik.net/newsite/index.php/amiga/121-rotator

Proxima III

http://www.indieretronews.com/2019/10/reshoot-proxima-iii-next-amiga-game.html

Music and demos from the scene.

www.pouet.net

And more :D

It is also a happy community. We all know what it is and are happy about that.
We don't need internet and all that shit
Internet is even on you phone. I'm sick of it allready

Last edited by nikosidis on 27-Nov-2019 at 12:05 PM.
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@nikosidis

for what do you need internet? ;)

seriously... one reason why NG will always fail. We simply do not have enough resources to update a modern web browser

and if you want to use a device as first machine today up to date web browser is needed

if you use something as a second device just for hobby and fun you do not need it

in your list you forgot Reshoot

Last edited by OlafS25 on 27-Nov-2019 at 12:11 PM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 27-Nov-2019 at 12:07 PM.

@OlafS25

I did not Olaf. It is called Proxima III :) But to be 100% correct. Reshoot - Proxima III

Only "Reshoot" is an old game and last year they released the fantastic Reshoot R and from the same People Reshoot - Proxima III

Metro Siege I forgot ;)

https://bitbeamcannon.com/metro-siege/

There are even more in Development but some will never happen. The titles I mention will happen.

It is not only about recources to update a web-browser but it is the OS itself. It is not secure. It is not made for internet and never will.

Last edited by nikosidis on 27-Nov-2019 at 12:25 PM.
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Last edited by nikosidis on 27-Nov-2019 at 12:14 PM.

@nikosidis

I meant Reshoot-R

I bought it because it is great to have new high-quality games again

People always mainly used amiga for gaming, if you would ask someone who was amiga user in 80s or 90s he will propably say he had A500 (and/or A1200) and used it for gaming

for me it is critical to get exclusive good games to win back users

for productivity amiga misses all needed software and even basic OS components, I do not see a realistic chance there

@OlafS25

Yes, almost all software for NG Amigas are evil, not native software. SDL and that crap.
The games I mention are games to be released. I have completed Reshoot R. Almost completed Worty :) For sure we must buy and support these productions.
I'm also patron to bitbeamcannon and the guys behind Reshoot series.

Also demo sceners do fantastic prods.

I'm using my A1200 almost every day. Thank god it is no internet on it :D
It is where I have fun and relax.

Last edited by nikosidis on 27-Nov-2019 at 12:32 PM.
Last edited by nikosidis on 27-Nov-2019 at 12:32 PM.