Click Here
home features news forums classifieds faqs links search
5729 members 
Amiga Q&A /  Free for All /  Emulation /  Gaming / (Latest Posts)
Login

Nickname

Password

Lost Password?

Don't have an account yet?
Register now!

Support Amigaworld.net
Your support is needed and is appreciated as Amigaworld.net is primarily dependent upon the support of its users.
Donate

Menu
Main sections
» Home
» Features
» News
» Forums
» Classifieds
» Links
» Downloads
Extras
» OS4 Zone
» IRC Network
» AmigaWorld Radio
» Newsfeed
» Top Members
» Amiga Dealers
Information
» About Us
» FAQs
» Advertise
» Polls
» Terms of Service
» Search

IRC Channel
Server: irc.amigaworld.net
Ports: 1024,5555, 6665-6669
SSL port: 6697
Channel: #Amigaworld
Channel Policy and Guidelines

Who's Online
21 crawler(s) on-line.
 17 guest(s) on-line.
 3 member(s) on-line.


 OneTimer1,  Fl@sh,  Exfso

You are an anonymous user.
Register Now!
 OneTimer1:  5 secs ago
 Fl@sh:  42 secs ago
 Exfso:  2 mins ago
 Rob:  6 mins ago
 Dege:  8 mins ago
 Hypex:  9 mins ago
 cap:  17 mins ago
 Spectre660:  27 mins ago
 zipper:  34 mins ago
 Gregor:  42 mins ago

/  Forum Index
   /  General Technology (No Console Threads)
      /  Modern web browsers
Register To Post

Goto page ( 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 Next Page )
PosterThread
bison 
Modern web browsers
Posted on 19-Mar-2020 22:25:17
#1 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1572
From: N-Space

For those wanting a modern web browser on Amiga, be careful what you wish for!

The reckless, infinite scope of web browsers

_________________
"Unix is supposed to fix that." -- Jay Miner

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Fairdinkem 
Re: Modern web browsers
Posted on 20-Mar-2020 1:13:29
#2 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Feb-2010
Posts: 485
From: Victoria, Australia

@bison

I don’t think anyone in the community is wanting the wheel reinvented. I think people wanted the Frieden bro to deliver a complete Firefox other than what was given for the bounty taken.

I think the community would appreciate co operation to bring Odyssey web browser to full maturity.

I think the community would appreciate co operation to bring all required libraries etc necessary to complete the web browsing experience on Amiga platforms.

_________________
Pegasos 2 G4 - AmigaOS 4.1 FE / MorphOS 3.6

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
tonyw 
Re: Modern web browsers
Posted on 20-Mar-2020 7:38:05
#3 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 3194
From: Sydney (of course)

@Fairdinkem

There is no such thing as "full maturity". It's a moving target, moving faster than any finite-sized development team can keep up.

The giants of the art (Mozilla, Google, Microsoft) all continue to add their own enhancements, so that no single browser can even decode/display everything that one of its competitiors can do.

_________________
cheers
tony

Hyperion Support Forum: http://forum.hyperion-entertainment.biz/index.php

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
TRIPOS 
Re: Modern web browsers
Posted on 20-Mar-2020 9:18:37
#4 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1021
From: Unknown

@Fairdinkem

Quote:

Fairdinkem wrote:

I think the community would appreciate co operation to bring Odyssey web browser to full maturity.


I think Odyssey stalled a long time ago, for quite many reasons.

Albeit not Amiga(tm) related, MorphOS developers are workong on an entirely new browser project. This is not an upgrade to Odyssey, but something brand new from scratch based on a more modern version of WebKit. This is a project of Jacadcaps, but it is tightly connected to -and made possible by- all the work conducted by the MorphOS Team over the last two years in improving the MorphOS SDK and entire toolchain, even resulting in changes in compilers and libraries. So it’s a big project, made possible by the entire active MorphOS Team!

Things are moving, and I have no doubt it will get there. Jacadcaps Is one of the remaining “super developers” with the ability to pull something like this off. Just look at the Iris E-mail client! But it will obviously take time! And some of the Amiga legacies and limitations are already providing challenges that will affect the feature level.

Anyway, there is a thread about it over at Morph Zone, where progress is posted occasionally:

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=12823&forum=9

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
sTix 
Re: Modern web browsers
Posted on 20-Mar-2020 12:49:45
#5 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Oct-2003
Posts: 111
From: Lund, Sweden

@TRIPOS

As much as I appreciate MorphOS and the efforts of the developers behind it, it's a real shame that this isn't a cross platform initiative (I know, it's been said a million times, but it's worth repeating).

Nevertheless, kudos to Jacadcaps for taking on such a suicide mission. Let's hope it works out and that their AMD64 plans come to fruition so that they'll have the hardware to carry the weight of such a monster.

IMO though, AROS would be a better initial target, it has the hardware support already, and, even more important, the openness needed to avoid a bus factor of 0.1.

_________________

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
TRIPOS 
Re: Modern web browsers
Posted on 20-Mar-2020 16:48:25
#6 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1021
From: Unknown

@sTix

If you read the linked-to thread, you'll learn that the most work for the new browser this far has been about bringing the MorphOS SDK and toolchain up to the task of being able to actually handle the new WebKit beast at all. In other words, the most work this far has been about improving the MorphOS platform itself, and not about the actual WebKit. This fact can't be ignored. Perhaps the common starting-point of MorphOS, AROS and OS4 -the 3.1 API 20 years ago- deludes people to believe that they are all interchangeable. But they are not. And AROS and OS4 seems kind of stalled since quite some time now, especially OS4 perhaps, which is something you can't blame the MorphOS devs for, right? The MorphOS Team takes responsibility for the MorphOS development, not the development of other platforms, and MorphOS has pressed ahead in its own direction the whole time. I think that you must accept that at a certain point there won't be such a thing as an easy "cross-platform" compatibility anymore. Maybe for simple stuff, but WebKit seems to be a demanding beast that requires a lot from the platform itself (which includes its SDK and toolchain). But who knows what will happen in the future? Odyssey became cross platform at some point. But the finalization of this browser project could be a year or a couple of years in the future. Is AROS and OS4 even present and still being developed by then? Will their SDK/Toolchain be up for the task? Who knows. In the meantime, MorphOS is of course available to everyone interested. And even without this new browser, the MorphOS itself is by far the most mature and the most feature-rich implementation of a Next Generation Amiga, feel free to enjoy...

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
sTix 
Re: Modern web browsers
Posted on 20-Mar-2020 18:20:01
#7 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Oct-2003
Posts: 111
From: Lund, Sweden

@TRIPOS

You don't need to convince me, I've read the thread and currently own (and enjoy) two MorphOS machines, had a Pegasos I and then II ages ago

As far as the platforms drifting apart is concerned, the pace of development in Amiga land is moderate (to say the least), so they really aren't that far apart. As far as I'm concerned, the hardware support is the big difference. I haven't found what you refer to as MorphOS own direction yet (despite staring at it for almost 20 years), which is not a bad thing, I appreciate the slow but steady pace along a path without surprises.

As for things going away, stalling and so on, do you follow AROS and OS4 development?


_________________

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
TRIPOS 
Re: Modern web browsers
Posted on 20-Mar-2020 20:14:16
#8 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1021
From: Unknown

@sTix

Quote:

sTix wrote:

do you follow AROS and OS4 development?


Not very closely to be honest, mostly what I read about on this site. With OS4 the final edition was released in December 2014. An update which AFAIK mostly was a bugfix release came out in 2016. Spread over half a decade, that's not what I call a pulse, it's a flatline. Especially the happenings the last couple of years regarding Hyperion's crashed economy, lawsuits and developers that left. AROS has always been slow, even when it was at its peak many, many years ago. A couple of weeks ago I read some posts here suggesting that the entire x86 branch has kind of stalled, some dev is still fiddling with an ARM distro, but that seems to be about it? Compared to the amount of work and progress we have seen on the MorphOS SDK alone during the past two years, and then the progress on the actual OS on top of that (and on top of that the new x64 work being shown in public, running albeit early stages), things looks kind of bleak I must say. To get back on topic - you say "why isn't this new browser a multi platform effort?", but honestly, is the infrastructure even there? Is the required SDK there? Is there anyone left who can work on the necessary OS/platform improvements including new SDK/toolchain, let alone the actual porting and development of WebKit? On MorphOS - quite obviously! On OS4/AROS - I see no sign of that whatsoever.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
sTix 
Re: Modern web browsers
Posted on 20-Mar-2020 22:26:33
#9 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Oct-2003
Posts: 111
From: Lund, Sweden

@TRIPOS

It doesn't make sense to say that AROS is just 'some dev fiddling with an ARM distro' while at the same time admitting that the only source of information you have is this forum. It's also not fair to not acknowledge the achievements of the OS4 developers; when it comes to graphics card support OS4 is doing really well for an alternative operating system, it's in fact ahead of MorphOS. What I'm after is some intellectual honesty, otherwise discussions like this become pointless.

_________________

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
asymetrix 
Re: Modern web browsers
Posted on 20-Mar-2020 22:29:01
#10 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 852
From: United Kingdom

@thread

One needs to break the pieces up and make Amiga libraries.

Find slow areas and speed them up.

There is a very small GUI which some people like :
Maybe its easier to write and has smaller footprint.

imgui

cimgui c api for imgui

Last edited by asymetrix on 20-Mar-2020 at 10:32 PM.

_________________
Download 499.26 Mbps, 659.94 Mbps Upload :)

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
kolla 
Re: Modern web browsers
Posted on 21-Mar-2020 7:05:33
#11 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1470
From: Trondheim, Norway

@asymetrix

Amiga doesn’t need another GUI toolkit, what’s “needed” is a lightweight web renderer - that is a lightweight yet capable html+css+ecma/javascript parser+renderer.

_________________
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
hUMUNGUs 
Re: Modern web browsers
Posted on 21-Mar-2020 7:58:22
#12 ]
Member
Joined: 27-Nov-2012
Posts: 43
From: Norway

@kolla

I dont often agree with you, kolla fra norge, but this time i do. I am desperate for something more modern. it has to be lightweight and speedy

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
OneTimer1 
Re: Modern web browsers
Posted on 21-Mar-2020 9:08:31
#13 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 3-Aug-2015
Posts: 584
From: Unknown

Quote:

asymetrix wrote:

There is a very small GUI ...


Nice, but is there any desirable software using this GUI ?

Having libraries, GUI toolkits and frameworks may be nice, but they where invented for a cause.

 Status: Online!
Profile     Report this post  
asymetrix 
Re: Modern web browsers
Posted on 21-Mar-2020 10:41:07
#14 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 852
From: United Kingdom

@kolla

Quote:
Amiga doesn’t need another GUI toolkit, what’s “needed” is a lightweight web renderer - that is a lightweight yet capable html+css+ecma/javascript parser+renderer.


You need all tools as small as possible and reusable.

for example
Use libcurl to download the html, convert it into fast effecient asm written library.

Use htmltidy to clean the html, convert to asm written as a library

note, these all will need to be rewritten to your target architecture, memory layout cache effeciency considerations etc.

One also need to build an effecient DOM, (Document Object Model) library to store the html and fast traversal, maybe realtime compression could be used.

There are other more powerful tools out there, but need more work to breakdown into Amiga optimized files.

I only suggested the GUI, because it is favored by asm developers, if your happy with your favorite GUI, use it.

Amiga also needs fast effecient Javascript engine, preferably optimized in asm.

Most of the APIs should have been provided by Hyperion - it a shame they dont have a clue, as usual.

I also had hoped the Vamipre team take on some serious software challenges, but they are so busy creating demos and converting games they dont have the manpower.

Maybe one could get it working using Python as its easier to use, but slow, just to get it to work, then start optimizing pieces at a time.


webscrape example

webscrape using pythons beautiful soup

_________________
Download 499.26 Mbps, 659.94 Mbps Upload :)

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
asymetrix 
Re: Modern web browsers
Posted on 21-Mar-2020 10:42:39
#15 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 852
From: United Kingdom

@OneTimer1

software using imgui

_________________
Download 499.26 Mbps, 659.94 Mbps Upload :)

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
bison 
Re: Modern web browsers
Posted on 21-Mar-2020 14:41:46
#16 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1572
From: N-Space

@Fairdinkem

Quote:
I don’t think anyone in the community is wanting the wheel reinvented. I think people wanted the Frieden bro to deliver a complete Firefox other than what was given for the bounty taken.

I think even maintaining a port of Firefox would be too much. It's huge, and constantly updated. A port would likely fall behind on security updates. Of course, on Amiga that probably doesn't matter much.

It might be more feasible to start with a smaller, older version of Firefox that's still semi-maintained, such as Pale Moon or Basilisk.

_________________
"Unix is supposed to fix that." -- Jay Miner

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Samurai_Crow 
Re: Modern web browsers
Posted on 21-Mar-2020 15:36:26
#17 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2003
Posts: 2202
From: Ft. Collins, Colorado, USA

@bison

Firefox is being rewritten in Rust as we speak for greater parallelism. Rust currently requires LLVM as a backend and toolchain. LLVM is too big to compile on a 32-bit architecture. Do you see where this is going?

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
BSzili 
Re: Modern web browsers
Posted on 21-Mar-2020 18:49:57
#18 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 16-Nov-2013
Posts: 373
From: Unknown

@asymetrix

I'm always amused by people who are still dreaming about making new browsers from scratch. Meanwhile in the real world Google is slowly pushing out all the competition, making the modern web more vendor locked than it was when Internet Explorer dominated the scene. Speaking of Microsoft, they already rebuilt Edge on Cromium, so Firefox is the last major non-Chromium based browser out the. Firefox has a large corporation behind it, but who knows how long will they be able to keep up with Google.

_________________
I see the jimmies have been rustled.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
ASiegel 
Re: Modern web browsers
Posted on 21-Mar-2020 19:46:33
#19 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Oct-2013
Posts: 195
From: Unknown

@BSzili

Quote:
Speaking of Microsoft, they already rebuilt Edge on Cromium, so Firefox is the last major non-Chromium based browser out the.


If you include "mobile devices" (tablets, phones, etc.), Safari has a substantially higher market share than Firefox.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
BSzili 
Re: Modern web browsers
Posted on 21-Mar-2020 21:35:52
#20 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 16-Nov-2013
Posts: 373
From: Unknown

@ASiegel

I was mainly talking about desktop, but yes, on mobile Safari is a significant "player", because Apple has its own hardware/software ecosystem. Even third party i(pad)OS browsers have to use WebKit, so websites have to support it, unlike Firefox. That being said WebKit is still relatively similar to Blink.

_________________
I see the jimmies have been rustled.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Goto page ( 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 Next Page )

[ home ][ about us ][ privacy ] [ forums ][ classifieds ] [ links ][ news archive ] [ link to us ][ user account ]
Copyright (C) 2000 - 2019 Amigaworld.net.
Amigaworld.net was originally founded by David Doyle