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PosterThread
TRIPOS 
Re: Modern web browsers
Posted on 30-Mar-2020 22:44:13
#41 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1041
From: Unknown

@BigD

In a thread devoted entirely to what it takes to bring a modern web browser to Amiga, how is ”enhancer software” relevant? And regarding to sTix’s call for ”cross platform initiatives” - is it really the ”enhancer software” (and not stuff like competent developers and SDK/toolchain) that will be the enabler for this?

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sTix 
Re: Modern web browsers
Posted on 30-Mar-2020 23:13:49
#42 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Oct-2003
Posts: 114
From: Lund, Sweden

@TRIPOS

Quote:
I pointed out the obvious fact that there are no signs of OS4 being developed much since 2014 and practically not at all since 2016. Then you say that this is "intellectually dishonest" based on a third party having released a stand-alone product offering external GFX support of an ancient 2013 level GPU as proof. Do you really think that OS4 in its current state and situation (meaning the vegetative coma and legal limbo it has been in during the last half decade with its Exec "brain" even being removed from its body) --including its SDK/Toolchain and team of active developers-- does match the one of MorphOS? On MorphOS, years has been spent on preparing the ground and bringing the OS and SDK/Toolchain up to the challenge, and much more time and work is going to be put into this before the new browser gets realized. On OS4, who is doing all this grunt work? Please answer as intellectually honest as you can.


Ok, I'll be honest: I don't know, because I, just like you, don't follow OS4 developments very closely, It just puzzles me that you're so sure of everything related to OS4 and AROS while admitting that you don't follow these developments. You forgot about AROS by the way.

Anyway, this was supposed to be about browsers.

My 5 cents; I think we should extend the AmigaGuide format and create a glorious parallel MultiView driven internet.

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SHADES 
Re: Modern web browsers
Posted on 31-Mar-2020 0:57:12
#43 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 657
From: Melbourne

@Fairdinkem

Yup.
Or continued bounties for continued work by the Friedens.

The version of Firefox they ported is far too old, even now.
The moving "goalposts" of browsers would mean constantly playing catch-up so, funding for each major release would need to be done.

A lot like graphics drivers I would suppose. New GPUs, more updates.

Last edited by SHADES on 31-Mar-2020 at 01:26 AM.
Last edited by SHADES on 31-Mar-2020 at 01:00 AM.

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It's not the question that's the problem, it's the problem that's the question.

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Samurai_Crow 
Re: Modern web browsers
Posted on 31-Mar-2020 0:58:03
#44 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2003
Posts: 2222
From: Minnesota, USA

@sTix

Quote:

sTix wrote:
My 5 cents; I think we should extend the AmigaGuide format and create a glorious parallel MultiView driven internet.

AmigaGuide is not designed to be secure and the AROS version of AmigaGuide.datatype sucks. Change it to Hollywood using RapaGUI plugin v2 and you might be onto something.

Last edited by Samurai_Crow on 31-Mar-2020 at 12:58 AM.

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Hans 
Re: Modern web browsers
Posted on 31-Mar-2020 4:44:07
#45 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 4927
From: New Zealand

@TRIPOS

Quote:

TRIPOS wrote:
@sTix
...


Quote:
[yada yada] ... some intellectual honesty


I pointed out the obvious fact that there are no signs of OS4 being developed much since 2014 and practically not at all since 2016. Then you say that this is "intellectually dishonest" based on a third party having released a stand-alone product offering external GFX support of an ancient 2013 level GPU as proof...

Correction, A-EON is offering support for 2017/2018 level GPUs. Do try to keep up!

Hans

_________________
http://hdrlab.org.nz/ - Amiga OS 4 projects, programming articles and more. Home of the RadeonHD driver for Amiga OS 4.x project.
https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

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BSzili 
Re: Modern web browsers
Posted on 31-Mar-2020 6:34:07
#46 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 16-Nov-2013
Posts: 388
From: Unknown

@TRIPOS

I guess this is an Enhancer thread now, so I'm going to post something off-topic:
https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=9&topic_id=12823&post_id=145162&viewmode=flat&sortorder=0&showonepost=1

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Nibunnoichi 
Re: Modern web browsers
Posted on 31-Mar-2020 8:12:26
#47 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Nov-2004
Posts: 957
From: Roma + Lecco, Italia

@Hans

Quote:

Hans wrote:
@TRIPOS

Quote:

TRIPOS wrote:
@sTix
...


[quote][...]offering external GFX support of an ancient 2013 level GPU as proof...

Correction, A-EON is offering support for 2017/2018 level GPUs. Do try to keep up!

Hans

He's a bit confused and mixed up things related to MorphOS' own graphics support level (or is it even older than 2013?)

_________________
Proud Amigan since 1987
Owner of various Commodore and a SAM440ep\OS4.1FE
See them on http://retro.furinkan.org/

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PR 
Re: Modern web browsers
Posted on 31-Mar-2020 9:48:05
#48 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Sep-2004
Posts: 1939
From: Suomi-Finland

Was waiting for the turboed XE.

Safe and secure.

PC Opera works as waiting still.

Best Regards:

Amiga Customer

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TRIPOS 
Re: Modern web browsers
Posted on 31-Mar-2020 10:34:41
#49 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1041
From: Unknown

@BSzili

Impressive progress!

But again:

“WebKit has changed quite a bit since Orygin's days, enabled by improvements in C++ itself. The current port is generally only possible because we've stepped up our game with the SDK during the last two years (new binutils, gcc7-9, new perl, etc) so even though I'm working on WebKit on my own, this is really a Team effort - so far most of the crashes have been fixed in the compiler and or libnix (by Piru) and not by changing the WebKit source code itself.”

And Now:

“The bad news is that there'll be no public beta before MorphOS 3.14 is out, because getting google.com to load required us to modify Netstack, exec, GCCs and a couple of other components :) Wouldn't be possible without Piru's work there.”

Massive work on updating the SDK/Toolchain, new versions of core OS components etc, before even working on the actual WebKit.

That’s what I’m talking about.

On MorphOS these two efforts seems to go hand in hand.

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sTix 
Re: Modern web browsers
Posted on 31-Mar-2020 11:27:22
#50 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Oct-2003
Posts: 114
From: Lund, Sweden

@BSzili

Very impressive! Looking forward to the next release then. See if this crappy Powerbook can keep up without throwing fans all over the place.

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BigD 
Re: Modern web browsers
Posted on 31-Mar-2020 14:27:43
#51 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5377
From: UK

@TRIPOS

Quote:
... pointed out the obvious fact that there are no signs of OS4 being developed much since 2014 and practically not at all since 2016.


Enhancer is evidence that OS4 is being developed beyond Hyperion's stagnation. You made a general erroneous point about development halting since 2016 and I clarified that A-EON has continued development.

Whether that comment was specifically about webkit stuff or not is irrelevant because your comment was general. If work is done by MorphOS devs to improve SDKs for browsers then I expect their progress will cross over onto AmigaOS. If it doesn't then we still haven't learnt from the Red/Blue wars and we all suffer. Neither side is going away and there is no point both OSes directly competing for so few NG customers while alienating classic/new customers with weird protectionist attitudes! Once the court case is settled there should be enough money and good will to fund joint projects but probably still not enough for each side to go it alone IMHO.

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"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

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kolla 
Re: Modern web browsers
Posted on 31-Mar-2020 16:44:49
#52 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1510
From: Trondheim, Norway

@sTix

Quote:
My 5 cents; I think we should extend the AmigaGuide format and create a glorious parallel MultiView driven internet.


That exists, it's called Gopher :)

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B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC

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sTix 
Re: Modern web browsers
Posted on 31-Mar-2020 17:28:28
#53 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Oct-2003
Posts: 114
From: Lund, Sweden

@kolla

Quote:
That exists, it's called Gopher :)




I didn't know there was an AmigaGuide implementation. Well, problem solved then.

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BSzili 
Re: Modern web browsers
Posted on 31-Mar-2020 19:21:05
#54 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 16-Nov-2013
Posts: 388
From: Unknown

@BigD

How are improvements in core MorphOS components and development tools are supposed to cross over onto OS4? Are the MorphOS team responsible for developing OS4 or else they are weird protectionists?

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I see the jimmies have been rustled.

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BigD 
Re: Modern web browsers
Posted on 31-Mar-2020 20:07:44
#55 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5377
From: UK

@BSzili

We have to pay A-EON for upgraded graphics components so why not MorphOS developers for WebKit code? Surely if it's funded by bounties or A-EON directly anything is possible?

Last edited by BigD on 31-Mar-2020 at 08:08 PM.

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"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

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recedent 
Re: Modern web browsers
Posted on 31-Mar-2020 21:36:59
#56 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 28-Jan-2010
Posts: 225
From: Tarnów

@BigD

Again, it's not just about the code (that - according to Jaca will be published at some point, not sure if as a public one though), it's about all the needed work inside the system itself. If you'd like to pay MorphOS team to do an OS for you then the easiest way to do that is to download, install and register MorphOS.

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BigD 
Re: Modern web browsers
Posted on 31-Mar-2020 22:18:28
#57 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5377
From: UK

@recedent

And if Phase5 was still alive I'd probably be doing just that! However, A-EON are the ones still in the hardware game and their business model funds software development too. I wouldn't buy a niche AmigaNG to run a browser so this is all academic to me. You are acting like the 'Blue' team can get the edge over the 'Red' team and somehow gain market share and increased relevance through WebKit tech; this is a fallacy! Both OSes are irrelevant but the Red team holds the IP whereas you argue that the Blue team has the more motivated developers and a modern browser is within grasp and would tip the balance! So what? BeOS still died! Work together and split the difference!

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"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

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ASiegel 
Re: Modern web browsers
Posted on 1-Apr-2020 3:46:35
#58 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Oct-2013
Posts: 195
From: Unknown

@BigD

Quote:
You are acting like the 'Blue' team can get the edge over the 'Red' team and somehow gain market share and increased relevance through WebKit tech


No, you are reading things into Recedent's post that he did not write.

You suggested that someone might buy "Webkit code" from the MorphOS team but WebKit is by and large an open source project. There is not much to buy right now.

The issue is that recent versions of Webkit will only compile if you have modern development tools and various other things in place. Those are generally based on open source software as well.

There is nothing to license from a third-party that will immediately give you a working port of Webkit - except if you licensed an entire OS, which was Recedent's point that you apparently missed.

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Hans 
Re: Modern web browsers
Posted on 1-Apr-2020 3:59:33
#59 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 4927
From: New Zealand

@ASiegel

Quote:

ASiegel wrote:
The issue is that recent versions of Webkit will only compile if you have modern development tools and various other things in place. Those are generally based on open source software as well.


Out of curiosity. What exactly were the changes needed for MorphOS? I've seen references to changes needed to NetStack, exec, and GCC, but no specifics.

Hans

_________________
http://hdrlab.org.nz/ - Amiga OS 4 projects, programming articles and more. Home of the RadeonHD driver for Amiga OS 4.x project.
https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

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BSzili 
Re: Modern web browsers
Posted on 1-Apr-2020 5:52:46
#60 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 16-Nov-2013
Posts: 388
From: Unknown

@BigD

Where did I say a word about WebKit?

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