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ASiegel
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Re: Modern web browsers Posted on 1-Apr-2020 6:47:58
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Regular Member |
Joined: 22-Oct-2013 Posts: 212
From: Unknown | | |
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| @Hans
Quote:
Out of curiosity. What exactly were the changes needed for MorphOS? I've seen references to changes needed to NetStack, exec, and GCC, but no specifics. |
I am afraid I am the wrong person to answer this. The release notes of MorphOS 3.14 will likely feature an extensive list of many related changes. So, maybe that is something to look forward to in the hopefully not to too distant future. |
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BigD
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Re: Modern web browsers Posted on 1-Apr-2020 7:22:57
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Elite Member |
Joined: 11-Aug-2005 Posts: 7307
From: UK | | |
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| @BSzili
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BSzili wrote: @BigD
Where did I say a word about WebKit? |
So you were only talking about core OS components and SDK then? Fine. I thought this thread was primarily about modern browsers of which WebKit is an important codebase! I guess if both OSes just upgraded their core components and SDKs thereby giving developers the tools they need this problem is as good as solved? Nevermind the man hours required to still chase a moving modern browser feature set and standards! The things you mention maybe get us back in the game but the endeavour is ongoing and as shown with Timberwolf not enough developers means that supporting modern browser features will still be a huge challenge!
_________________ "Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art." John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios |
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BSzili
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Re: Modern web browsers Posted on 1-Apr-2020 7:26:16
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Regular Member |
Joined: 16-Nov-2013 Posts: 447
From: Unknown | | |
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| @BigD
Again, you are putting words into my mouth. Maybe you meant to reply to someone else? _________________ This is just like television, only you can see much further. |
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Templario
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Re: Modern web browsers Posted on 1-Apr-2020 10:46:59
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Elite Member |
Joined: 22-Jun-2004 Posts: 3663
From: Unknown | | |
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| @BigD
As always doing damage to someone, this time to MorphOS team for not pay to webkit, why do you ask to A-EON for the money of Timberwolf bounty? or for the browser I remember that money reached the alomost the 4000 euros or more. The problem is here in A-EON not in the MorphOS team. |
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BigD
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Re: Modern web browsers Posted on 1-Apr-2020 12:20:54
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Elite Member |
Joined: 11-Aug-2005 Posts: 7307
From: UK | | |
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| @Templario
I'm doing damage to no one! I only suggest that webkit / browser solutions for both AmigaOS and MorphOS are approached as a joint effort. In the meantime good browsers are available for the smart phone in your pocket, your tv and heck even the PS3 one is still pretty good!
Is this about growing the market or just trying to save face since most other platforms have this sorted? The flip side to that is no one is going to see it as a killer app since it is an expected norm so all that hard work just for parity? I think that Hypex's suggestion was a good one where we just have an abstraction layer of a Remote Desktop style Android hosted 'app' displayed on the Workbench. That way the Android developers can keep it up to date for us! Last edited by BigD on 01-Apr-2020 at 12:22 PM.
_________________ "Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art." John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios |
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jacadcaps
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Re: Modern web browsers Posted on 1-Apr-2020 16:45:27
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Regular Member |
Joined: 20-Nov-2007 Posts: 203
From: Canada | | |
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| @BigD
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That way the Android developers can keep it up to date for us! |
Sure, for the price of new A-Eon hardware, they could just throw a Raspberry Pi inside the case to do the webpage rendering for you! |
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bison
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Re: Modern web browsers Posted on 1-Apr-2020 22:15:48
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Elite Member |
Joined: 18-Dec-2007 Posts: 2112
From: N-Space | | |
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| @jacadcaps
Yeah. That's what I was thinking over here.
A Broadcom BCM2711B0 SoC + Intel Cyclone V FPGA + TI PCM5122 audio DAC + SATA would make a pretty nice hobby system.
_________________ "Unix is supposed to fix that." -- Jay Miner |
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Hans
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Re: Modern web browsers Posted on 2-Apr-2020 4:32:27
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Elite Member |
Joined: 27-Dec-2003 Posts: 5066
From: New Zealand | | |
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| @jacadcaps
I asked this before, but it got buried by bickering...
Out of curiosity. What exactly were the changes needed for MorphOS? I've seen references to changes needed to NetStack, exec, and GCC, but no specifics.
Hans
_________________ http://hdrlab.org.nz/ - Amiga OS 4 projects, programming articles and more. Home of the RadeonHD driver for Amiga OS 4.x project. https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work. |
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sTix
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Re: Modern web browsers Posted on 2-Apr-2020 7:37:52
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Regular Member |
Joined: 22-Oct-2003 Posts: 138
From: Lund, Sweden | | |
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Hans
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Re: Modern web browsers Posted on 2-Apr-2020 8:16:34
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Elite Member |
Joined: 27-Dec-2003 Posts: 5066
From: New Zealand | | |
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| @sTix
Quote:
Thanks, but I'm not interested in the source-code. I just want to know what features/functionality needed to be added.
Hans
_________________ http://hdrlab.org.nz/ - Amiga OS 4 projects, programming articles and more. Home of the RadeonHD driver for Amiga OS 4.x project. https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work. |
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sTix
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Re: Modern web browsers Posted on 2-Apr-2020 10:45:08
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Regular Member |
Joined: 22-Oct-2003 Posts: 138
From: Lund, Sweden | | |
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| @Hans
Fair enough. I know; it's in the source is a lazy, slightly annoying answer. But that might be the only form of support available in this case. The incentives aren't really there in this case, unfortunately. Last edited by sTix on 02-Apr-2020 at 10:47 AM.
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jacadcaps
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Re: Modern web browsers Posted on 2-Apr-2020 13:46:24
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Regular Member |
Joined: 20-Nov-2007 Posts: 203
From: Canada | | |
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| @Hans
You need good C++ 11 and newer coverage in GCC 9, basically. That means that your libnix/newlib/whatever needs to be up to speed with this as well as things like pthreads (not just "oh, we have that", but actually covering all the required functionality and working well). You also need a good and fast TLS implementation.
For a quick test, see if the example from https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/thread/call_once compiles and works as expected. |
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ggw
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Re: Modern web browsers Posted on 2-Apr-2020 14:39:52
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Super Member |
Joined: 24-May-2003 Posts: 1106
From: Austin, TX | | |
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| @jacadcaps
Would be better than the sneakerNet which many (most?) of us do stay with our Amiga OS4+. _________________ ..effects of civilization upon...nature, the growing gap between what education was supposed to accomplish and what it consisted of, the national debt and...high taxes, the problem of the excess cost of medical care -- Philip Wylie, 1951 |
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TRIPOS
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Re: Modern web browsers Posted on 2-Apr-2020 18:18:38
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Super Member |
Joined: 4-Apr-2014 Posts: 1204
From: Unknown | | |
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| @BSzili
From Morph.zone:
Quote:
Note! Captured running in QEmu, so the speed in the clip does NOT reflect the real native performance!
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kas1e
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Re: Modern web browsers Posted on 2-Apr-2020 19:50:57
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Elite Member |
Joined: 11-Jan-2004 Posts: 3549
From: Russia | | |
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| @jacadcaps
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Tried on our 8.3.0, and it compiles fine for both newlib and clib2, and i can run it, but seems it didn't works as expected in both cases (be it newlib or clib2). That what i have when run it from shell:
Quote:
ram:> jada_check Simple example: called once throw: call_once will retry
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And then nothing happens anymore.
Cpu loading 100% like waiting for some input from somewhere and nothing else.
Through the same output i have on Cygwin when compile it natively for x86. Through it then exit after those strings, and not waiting in loop.Last edited by kas1e on 02-Apr-2020 at 07:56 PM. Last edited by kas1e on 02-Apr-2020 at 07:54 PM.
_________________ Join us to improve dopus5! zerohero's mirror of os4/os3 crosscompiler suites |
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jacadcaps
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Re: Modern web browsers Posted on 2-Apr-2020 20:06:17
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Regular Member |
Joined: 20-Nov-2007 Posts: 203
From: Canada | | |
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| @kas1e
Well, this is just one random test (but related to JavaScriptCore). There's way more that you'd likely need to fix. |
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kas1e
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Re: Modern web browsers Posted on 2-Apr-2020 20:28:05
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Elite Member |
Joined: 11-Jan-2004 Posts: 3549
From: Russia | | |
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| @jacadcaps
The only one who works on GCC for us is SBA, but he surely out of time and motivation now. So one who will try to do the same as you do now for MorphOS will surely have needs to fix GCC too. Through it opensourced with all aos4 patches.
Newlib os4 version, on the other hand, is closed source by Hyperion (so no way to works with them fast and on acceptable framerate), but there is clib2 which is better supported for all that new c++ stuff, and also open-sourced. So that can be used and fixed at least theoretically.
So GCC and CLIB2 are kind of possible to be dealing with without involving Hyperion's mumbo-jumbo, but if it will be kernel, elf loader, or something like roadshow, or anything closed sourced and what in hands of Hyperion, and which impossible to workaround, then we out of luck surely. Hoping they will work on something in the fast timeframe and release things kind of naive today of course. Last edited by kas1e on 02-Apr-2020 at 08:28 PM.
_________________ Join us to improve dopus5! zerohero's mirror of os4/os3 crosscompiler suites |
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TRIPOS
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Re: Modern web browsers Posted on 2-Apr-2020 23:05:42
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Super Member |
Joined: 4-Apr-2014 Posts: 1204
From: Unknown | | |
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| Quote:
kas1e wrote: @jacadcaps
The only one who works on GCC for us is SBA, but he surely out of time and motivation now. So one who will try to do the same as you do now for MorphOS will surely have needs to fix GCC too. Through it opensourced with all aos4 patches.
Newlib os4 version, on the other hand, is closed source by Hyperion (so no way to works with them fast and on acceptable framerate), but there is clib2 which is better supported for all that new c++ stuff, and also open-sourced. So that can be used and fixed at least theoretically.
So GCC and CLIB2 are kind of possible to be dealing with without involving Hyperion's mumbo-jumbo, but if it will be kernel, elf loader, or something like roadshow, or anything closed sourced and what in hands of Hyperion, and which impossible to workaround, then we out of luck surely. Hoping they will work on something in the fast timeframe and release things kind of naive today of course. |
@sTix, BigD
Well, there you have some nice input from both jacadcaps and kas1e about the Browser and the OS4 situation.
But I suppose there is always "the enhancer software", where all the cool things happens...
Well, in fact kas1e may be wrong in one point: when it comes to "kernel" it may already be destined to be in some upcoming "the enhancer software" update, since that apparently no longer is in Hyperion's hands but in AeonKit's!
Please don't look at my posts in this thread as sinister. I know you are, but they were never meant to be. But some of you may want to snap out of the delusion you are currently in and open your eyes, and try to understand the situation OS4 is in. And don't follow your knee-jerk reaction to blame MorphOS (or its developers, or its enthusiast supporters) as some devils off-spring that is the cause of this. They are not. The MorphOS developers are among the last men standing, the heroes when it comes to the required competence. Even AeonKit knows this, and they have publicly expressed appreciation and acknowledge on MorphOS Team members contribution to OS4's driver support of the Cyrus Plus motherboard that they used in the X5000 system.
Maybe this is a disguised work proposal to AeonKit? As in "we can deliver all necessary MorphOS components rebranded (OS components and/or SDK/Toolchain stuff) to your "enhancer software" in order to bring contemporary browsing technology to OS4 despite Hyperion's vegetative state? And then maybe the Browser itself to follow as well?
MorphOS is an art project, it's a work of love. OS4 is work for money. If money could flow in one direction, then maybe some love might flow in the other? It was done before, after all...
- In OS4 drivers. - In various Open Source stuff that the MorphOS team made available under *certain licenses*(!) - In the Odyssey browser.
But the flow in the other direction?
No TimberWolf browser for MorphOS No IBrowse for MorphOS? No X5000 GFX drivers for MorphOS
Last edited by TRIPOS on 02-Apr-2020 at 11:13 PM.
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Rob
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Re: Modern web browsers Posted on 3-Apr-2020 0:15:33
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Elite Member |
Joined: 20-Mar-2003 Posts: 6344
From: S.Wales | | |
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| @TRIPOS
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- In OS4 drivers. -- Paid work, which I understand resulted drivers for MorphOS too. - In various Open Source stuff that the MorphOS team made available under *certain licenses*(!) - In the Odyssey browser. -- Bounty paid to Fab.
But the flow in the other direction?
No TimberWolf browser for MorphOS -- The source code has been public for years. No IBrowse for MorphOS? -- I'm sure the 68k version runs but it is hopelessly outdated anyway. No X5000 GFX drivers for MorphOS -- I thought you didn't want support for "ancient" video cards.
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I have been told that A-EON want to bring more of their I.P. to MorphOS but it largely depends on time available to developers like Bigfoot.
Dan Müßener has always made MorphOS version of his games available.
Claus Desler has supported MorphOS with Cinnamon Writer and after a period of apparent inactivity he does seem to be working on it again.
Perhaps there would be more co-operation between developers if we users weren't so hostile towards one another. We all came from the same shared platform in the 80's and 90's. |
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outrun1978
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Re: Modern web browsers Posted on 3-Apr-2020 0:44:43
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Cult Member |
Joined: 22-Feb-2015 Posts: 596
From: Unknown | | |
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| @Rob
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Perhaps there would be more co-operation between developers if we users weren't so hostile towards one another. We all came from the same shared platform in the 80's and 90's. |
Big plus +1 on that comment
As a X5000 user (and Amiga user In general since 1992) the latest update to Odyssey on AmigaOS 4 makes it even less likely that you would want to use MorphOS given the existing graphic card limitations in place for that particular OS on an X5000.
Regular visitors to this forum will now notice from my signature that I am running a Polaris based graphics card in my machine. I’m not foolish enough to expect MorphOS to support this card either, but it is an indication that quite a lot of things run really well under OS4 on the X5000 using this type of graphics card. For the £40 the RX550 cost it cost me for a re-conditioned from manufacturer on EBay I’d say it was much more useful upgrade for the X5000 than a MorphOS subscription.
Well done to Kas1e and all those involved in updating Odyssey for AmigaOS 4, We are realistic enough not to expect to watch Netflix in 4K but I can appreciate you have done an excellent job here updating this. The browser Is really quick, I really appreciate being able to spoof as per my current iPad OS 13 and Chrome 80 so that more of the Internet is opened up and we finally have full screen YouTube videos after all this time._________________ Amigaone X5000/20 4GB Radeon RX 550 Polaris 12 AmigaOS4.1 Final Edition Update 1 Amiga 1200 Workbench 3.1.4 Amiga CD32 |
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