@cdimauro

Just sticking to the grab for emulation, later, you might recall from the trademark thread...

Ben Hermans registers the Amiga Forever trademark at euipo

Whereas the many tellings about Manomio received no comment, at least several posters did respond to -that-. heh.

#6

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@number6: I recall it, thanks. But maybe it's good that someone else here takes a look at it.

@cdimauro

Brief curious addition I may never have mentioned:

the Hyperion Cinemaware connection with no mention of Manomio

Yet if we go to archive.org, where deleted history lies...
Brought to you by Cinemaware® in association with Manomio

Weird stuff.

#6

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@number6: thanks. The more is digging, the more the squalor emerges...

@cdimauro

Quote:

t means that ImageFX code has still some 68K assembly code, so it needs to rewritten in PowerPC assembly or, even better, in C/C++ so that it can be compiled with an architecture which is different from 68K.

68k code still runs in OS4.x either via Petnia JIT or interpreted emulation so if the 68k code runs sufficiently fast it's not really necessary to re-write. Some of the Powerstation modules were already converted to PPC by Nova but only MorphOS binaries were included in the retail product.

Quote:

Did Hyperion paid the developers which worked on that stuff?

I don't know but I suspect not. If not, like the 3.1.4 devs they would have been under no illusion that payment would be forthcoming.

Quote:

Wasn't it due to an agreement between Hyperion and Cloanto?

I don't think so but no agreement would have been needed since they were 2 separate products that were simply sold together as a package. It's something that happens all the time in retail.

The reason I included this in the timeline is because it occured after Hyperion included roms and OS 3.1 with 4.1, after they licensed A-EON the right to produce 3.1 roms and after they licensed various roms and OS versions to Individual computers. It suggests that at the time Cloanto didn't take issue with what Hyperion were doing.

@Rob Quote:

Rob wrote: @cdimauro Quote: t means that ImageFX code has still some 68K assembly code, so it needs to rewritten in PowerPC assembly or, even better, in C/C++ so that it can be compiled with an architecture which is different from 68K. 68k code still runs in OS4.x either via Petnia JIT or interpreted emulation so if the 68k code runs sufficiently fast it's not really necessary to re-write. Some of the Powerstation modules were already converted to PPC by Nova but only MorphOS binaries were included in the retail product.

That's OK with with the current ImageFX binary which is for 68K.

But I assume that people wants a native, fully PowerPC, version of that application. In this case you're blocked by the 68K assembly parts, which need to be rewritten (at least in C).
Quote:

Quote: Did Hyperion paid the developers which worked on that stuff? I don't know but I suspect not. If not, like the 3.1.4 devs they would have been under no illusion that payment would be forthcoming.

Indeed and that's my idea.
Quote:

Quote: Wasn't it due to an agreement between Hyperion and Cloanto? I don't think so but no agreement would have been needed since they were 2 separate products that were simply sold together as a package. It's something that happens all the time in retail. The reason I included this in the timeline is because it occured after Hyperion included roms and OS 3.1 with 4.1, after they licensed A-EON the right to produce 3.1 roms and after they licensed various roms and OS versions to Individual computers. It suggests that at the time Cloanto didn't take issue with what Hyperion were doing.

But Cloanto sold OS4 for Hyperion using its digital platform.

So, I doubt that Michele decided to follow the same dirty path of Ben H., by selling products of which he has no IP / rights.

In fact, he decided to go for the lawsuit when it was too much for him...

@cdimauro

Referring to the talk of the "roms" included on the 4.1 release:

The issue, as you might recall, was once again this emulation thing, when the 1.3 Rom was included on that release.

Kickstart-34.4.rom is a 1.3 rom version.
Included in AmigOS 4.1 Update 4, released for download 22 December 2011

#6

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@cdimauro

Quote:

That's OK with with the current ImageFX binary which is for 68K. But I assume that people wants a native, fully PowerPC, version of that application. In this case you're blocked by the 68K assembly parts, which need to be rewritten (at least in C).

ImageFX is modular.

Quote:

But Cloanto sold OS4 for Hyperion using its digital platform. So, I doubt that Michele decided to follow the same dirty path of Ben H., by selling products of which he has no IP / rights.

I never implied Mike did anything wrong in this respect. If you chose to read something else into what I said that's a problem of your misinterpretation.

I will re-iterate my point that if he had a problem with their deals with A-EON and Individual why did help them by boosting sales of 4.1 Classic rather than start legal action against them.

@Rob

I will assume that Mike Battilana got a cut of that sale.
(this some that Mike Battilana had some cooperation with Hyperion to make this happen, as you can’t sell it without valid license code, so buyers / users can register their product.)

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 29-Oct-2020 at 07:52 PM.

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@cdimauro

Quote:

In fact, he decided to go for the lawsuit when it was too much for him...

It clearly building up to this, Mike Battilana securing copyrights used by Hyperion, and securing what ever right Amiga Inc had, this was done to undermined Hyperion business. No doubt.

he had nonexclusive license that covered what he was doing, redistribution and sales of Workbench and ROM’S for use on emulators, he clearly wonted exclusive rights.

It might be that he does not have a problem with sales of AmigaOS as long has he get a fee from Hyperion for using the copyrighted names. Workbench, Amiga, etc. But this does not add any value to the end users, it will just increase the price, this not noble like he claims it is.

It kind remind me of a mob boss that goes around nocking on peoples door, asking if they like to buy security, If you say no he comes and burns down your house.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 29-Oct-2020 at 08:19 PM.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

I don't think undermining Hyperion's business model is Mike's primary goal, but rather to introduce a new order of things.

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Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: It clearly building up to this, Mike Battilana securing copyrights used by Hyperion, and securing what ever right Amiga Inc had, this was done to undermined Hyperion business. No doubt.

The contract and settlement agreement between Amiga Inc and Hyperion describes the business under license allowed by Hyperion and this has not changed with the purchase of Amiga Inc. assets. The only Hyperion business undermined would be that which is in violation of the contract and settlement agreement.

Quote:

he had nonexclusive license that covered what he was doing, redistribution and sales of Workbench and ROM’S for use on emulators, he clearly wonted exclusive rights.

It was up to Amiga Inc. to defend the boundaries of their contract and settlement agreement with Hyperion. Michele likely felt that the boundaries were being violated and it was undermining his business. It would be logical that he approached Amiga Inc. getting clarification on what was covered by the contracts and informing them of the suspected breaches of contract. If they were not willing or capable of defending it then he had added incentive, due to lost revenue from Amiga classic related business, to negotiate to buy their business. I fail to see an ethical problem with this.

Hyperion received a license to develop AmigaOS 4 and was likely given rights to the AmigaOS required for that activity. AmigaOS 68k ROMs for AmigaOS 4 would fit under that category. AmigaOS 68k ROMs for emulated 68k games on smart phones does not. AmigaOS 68k updates for 68k owners does not. AmigaOS 68k licenses for Amiga accelerators does not.

Quote:

Hyperion and Individual Computers sign license agreement Brussels, March 9, 2013 Hyperion Entertainment CVBA (Belgium) and Individual Computers GmbH (Germany) have signed a license agreement for use of Kickstart 1.3 and Kickstart 3.1 ROMs in processor accelerators for Amiga 500, Amiga 1000, Amiga 2000 and Amiga 2500. In addition to the binary license, Hyperion will grant Individual Computers access to the source code of the IDE driver for further development which may facilitate installation of AmigaOS 4.1 and beyond. The first product to make use of this license will be the entry-level accelerator for Amiga 500 called "ACA500": With both Kickstart images in the flashrom of this product,the user will benefit from best compatibility with floppy-based and harddisk-based software.

Is Hyperion really planning "installation of AmigaOS 4.1" on an ACA500 accelerator or is this lip service to say it is AmigaOS 4 related so it falls within the boundaries of their license from Amiga Inc.?

Quote:

It might be that he does not have a problem with sales of AmigaOS as long has he get a fee from Hyperion for using the copyrighted names. Workbench, Amiga, etc. But this does not add any value to the end users, it will just increase the price, this not noble like he claims it is. It kind remind me of a mob boss that goes around nocking on peoples door, asking if they like to buy security, If you say no he comes and burns down your house.

Most of the value of the 68k AmigaOS update comes from the following.

1) updated source code (current developer labor)
2) 68k source code (previous developer labor)
3) Amiga IP rights to names like AmigaOS and Workbench (would the product exist without?)

Who do you think owns and provided 2 and 3 above? Hyperion kept all the profits but what "value" did they provide?

4) distribution and sales (online sales from their website)
5) provided some source code they were contracted to create for Amiga Inc. to facilitate better compatibility with AmigaOS 4.x

Care to assign percentages of the value provided like the following?

Michele 50%
current developers 40%
Hyperion 10%

Hyperion kept 100% of the revenue. Who again is acting like a criminal?

Michele could sell the 68k AmigaOS update for half price and send half the profits to the developers. Would this be criminal or liberation from a criminal?

Last edited by matthey on 29-Oct-2020 at 10:41 PM.

@matthey

Quote:

Is Hyperion really planning "installation of AmigaOS 4.1" on an ACA500 accelerator or is this lip service to say it is AmigaOS 4 related so it falls within the boundaries of their license from Amiga Inc.?

The ACA I believe has A1200 trapdoor slot, that you can plug in a BlizzardPPC, so this is not exactly new hardware platform for AmigaOS4.1.

the source code to A1200 or A590 or something like that ide driver, allows Individual to get work done quicker.

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@number6 Quote:

number6 wrote: @cdimauro Referring to the talk of the "roms" included on the 4.1 release: The issue, as you might recall, was once again this emulation thing, when the 1.3 Rom was included on that release. Kickstart-34.4.rom is a 1.3 rom version. Included in AmigOS 4.1 Update 4, released for download 22 December 2011 #6

I see, thanks. Those threads on the MorphOS forum are very informative.


@Rob Quote:

Rob wrote: @cdimauro Quote: That's OK with with the current ImageFX binary which is for 68K. But I assume that people wants a native, fully PowerPC, version of that application. In this case you're blocked by the 68K assembly parts, which need to be rewritten (at least in C). ImageFX is modular.

Yes, but it doesn't change the situation: would you like to run a full PowerPC version, or an hybrid PowerPC + 68K one? I think that this should be the point.

However if the 68K code stays only some module then it should be easy to release a PowerPC version of ImageFX right now, with only those modules compiled for 68K. But maybe the mentioned 68K code was in the main application, and this is creating the delay.
Quote:

Quote: But Cloanto sold OS4 for Hyperion using its digital platform. So, I doubt that Michele decided to follow the same dirty path of Ben H., by selling products of which he has no IP / rights. I never implied Mike did anything wrong in this respect. If you chose to read something else into what I said that's a problem of your misinterpretation. I will re-iterate my point that if he had a problem with their deals with A-EON and Individual why did help them by boosting sales of 4.1 Classic rather than start legal action against them.

As I said: maybe he did it when it was too much for him.


@NutsAboutAmiga Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: @cdimauro Quote: In fact, he decided to go for the lawsuit when it was too much for him... It clearly building up to this, Mike Battilana securing copyrights used by Hyperion, and securing what ever right Amiga Inc had, this was done to undermined Hyperion business. No doubt.

There's no doubt that you don't understand or don't want to understand the situation.

Hyperion business was and should be solely related to OS4. Full dot! It was even reported on THEIR site JUST AFTER the settlement!

Everything else was/is in the Amiga Inc. or Cloanto domain.

Are you able to spot the differences and who was the One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest?
Have you ever had the chance to read the links and documentation that #6 reported?

For the rest matt already answered you, and I mostly agree.


@matthey Quote:

matthey wrote: Hyperion received a license to develop AmigaOS 4 and was likely given rights to the AmigaOS required for that activity. AmigaOS 68k ROMs for AmigaOS 4 would fit under that category.

I don't agree on this. Amiga o.s. 3.x ROMs aren't required for the development of OS4: only the source was/is required. And AFAIR it was just the source code which was involved in the settlement.


@NutsAboutAmiga Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: @matthey Quote: Is Hyperion really planning "installation of AmigaOS 4.1" on an ACA500 accelerator or is this lip service to say it is AmigaOS 4 related so it falls within the boundaries of their license from Amiga Inc.? The ACA I believe has A1200 trapdoor slot, that you can plug in a BlizzardPPC, so this is not exactly new hardware platform for AmigaOS4.1.

Again: you don't read what people posts. It was clearly reported the list of Amiga machines in that part of the discussion:

Hyperion Entertainment CVBA (Belgium) and Individual Computers GmbH (Germany) have signed a license agreement for use of Kickstart 1.3 and Kickstart 3.1 ROMs in processor accelerators for Amiga 500, Amiga 1000, Amiga 2000 and Amiga 2500.

Please, tell me where have you found the A1200 in this list?!?

How is possible that people speaks of A and you reply talking of Z? Are you serious?
Quote:

the source code to A1200 or A590 or something like that ide driver, allows Individual to get work done quicker.

There was no A1200 involved: see above.

The rest is NOT relevant to the discussion, and anyway: who cares?

What's clear is that you're defending the impossible. And, much worse, the evil side. Who knows why...

Quote:

cdimauro wrote: I don't agree on this. Amiga o.s. 3.x ROMs aren't required for the development of OS4: only the source was/is required. And AFAIR it was just the source code which was involved in the settlement.

I was under the impression that in AmigaOS PPC development a 68k kickstart was used with a 68k emulator to provide parts of the OS which were not converted to PPC yet. The last I heard was that a few modules of AmigaOS 4 are still 68k code run under emulation like ARexx but I expect the 68k kickstart would have been replaced by a PPC one by now.

@matthey

Well If look at in number of years contributing or development of AmigaOS,
you end up with something like this.

Commdore 9 years 39 % AmigaOS1.0 to 3.1 (kickstart and workbench disks)
Escom 2 years 9 % (.... not sure what they where working on..)
Viscorp 1 years 4 % (Kickstart 3.2)
H&P 2 years 9 % (AmigaOS3.5 / OS3.9)
Hyperion 9 years 39 % (AmigaOS4.0 up 1,2,3,4,5 / 4.1, up 1,2,3,4,5,6, Final )

Michele 0 Years 0%

Individual contributors – X years… X %
(Most of OS3.5 was available on Aminet, before OS3.5)

Not counting contribution ACube-System and AEON, has contributed in form of drivers and enchantment, (Won’t be legally part of AmigaOS anyway, more like contributions.)

Not sure how many developers etch company had working In that time period.
(assuming they had equally many.)

Michele paied and signed some paper work, transferred some assets that probably take about 10 min of work. he did hack some of the kickstarts, I remember, but he did not have the source code to it as far I know. (nor the rights to do at the time.)

As for money spent on buying assets, paying developers, and legal costs.
we need to have access to companies’ internal records. If you intended % of cash investment.

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@cdimauro

Quote:

I see, thanks. Those threads on the MorphOS forum are very informative.

Yes, it nice to read as they are more emotional detached, some of the comments are naturally balanced.

Quote:

Please, tell me where have you found the A1200 in this list?!?

This is the ACA500 product, it is product for Amiga500.



Commodore Amiga 500 - ACA500+ Accelerator Card - FULL REVIEW

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kr2HK_rurho

Quote:

What's clear is that you're defending the impossible. And, much worse, the evil side. Who knows why...

What is so Evil about making operating systems, helping hardware developer getting products to market, and creating games for Amiga community?

You think its better that shareholders play poker with commodore copyrights.
And kill of development?

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@NutsAboutAmiga The Escom guys (Amiga Technologies) Did some real work. They brought their own A1200 and A4000 Tower. They didnt had the plans for the chipsets. So they had to break it down layer by layer and analyse it. And they also managed to build up a production process. In that times the sales numbers had been higher so that was a real effort. Also they worked on a PPC Amiga.

@NutsAboutAmiga

You cannot simply take the years to judge the contributions... in last years (even before lawsuit started) what exactly did Hyperion?

And even before development depended on people working voluntary and free of charge. When exactly there was last time when Hyperion paid someone for work?

If Ben H. would give it away as freeware I would say all OK but a commercial OS where all money ends in one pocket depending on people working for free is crazy. I do not understand why you are so a big fan of Hyperion. I can understand if you like the OS but I do not understand why you all the time defend Hyperion.

The lawsuit is finally about money... from both sides. Hyperion got into "classic market" because they (or better he) realized that there is still money to earn (in opposite to NG) and there Cloanto felt endangered by that. So they started the lawsuit. Simple as that. Both are businesses, not more not less and amiga market is business too (even if being a small one). Cloanto is not holy but Hyperion is not too. You certainly read what Amigakit wrote about NG... it is only making losses, money is only earnt in classic. So it is not unlogical from a business point of view not to invest in NG. That is not a nice information for you but should be no real surprise. The battle is less about Amigaos but about 3.1.4/3.2 and the amiga roms.

@matthey

If I remember right (what I read) the author of Arexx was not paid by Commodore so left the platform. Cannot remember the name, some time ago I tried to find him in web without success. Do not know if he still lives at all.

So I assume Commodore did not have the arexx sources and there is the problem that arexx is undocumented and not plain rexx. End of story... if you want real arexx you have to use the original library, no chance to reimplement it. On aros you f.e. have a rexx implementation (regina) but rexx and arexx are not identical)