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/  Forum Index
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      /  Amiga hardware poll
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Poll : What should happen to Amiga hardware?
Develop cheap 68k SoC for embedded, toys/games, retro, hobby
Develop expensive PPC SoC for desktop, laptop
POWER for desktop AmigaOS (no SMP or 64 bit addressing)
POWER for desktop with redesigned & incompatible AmigaOS
No more embarrassing Amiga hardware!
No opinion or pancakes
 
PosterThread
MEGA_RJ_MICAL 
Re: Amiga hardware poll
Posted on 21-Jun-2020 4:51:22
#41 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 13-Dec-2019
Posts: 337
From: AMIGAWORLD.NET WAS ORIGINALLY FOUNDED BY DAVID DOYLE

My friends,

to prevent such polls and threads we just need users to solve a captcha in order to post!

Soon there will be only four or five users left, while the mattheys and bigds of this world bash on their keyboards howling and gargling, helpless.

Regards from the depths of my heart,
MEGA RJ MICAL

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bison 
Re: Amiga hardware poll
Posted on 21-Jun-2020 5:09:39
#42 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1643
From: N-Space

@MEGA_RJ_MICAL

Polls are better than lawsuits and vaporware, and cheaper than books.

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Trekiej 
Re: Amiga hardware poll
Posted on 21-Jun-2020 5:45:17
#43 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 17-Oct-2006
Posts: 782
From: Unknown

@matthey

It seems like we are stuck with using a multi-core CPU and an open source emulator and OS to run our Amiga software.

I wish I had a 16 core 32 thread PPC CPU and a great video card to go with it.
It would be nice to have AOS 4.1 running on it.

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MEGA_RJ_MICAL 
Re: Amiga hardware poll
Posted on 21-Jun-2020 5:57:24
#44 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 13-Dec-2019
Posts: 337
From: AMIGAWORLD.NET WAS ORIGINALLY FOUNDED BY DAVID DOYLE

@Trekiej

Quote:

Trekiej wrote:

I wish I had a 16 core 32 thread PPC CPU and a great video card to go with it.
It would be nice to have AOS 4.1 running on it.


Yes!

It would be great to have 15 or 31 threads unused and idle, keeping the cpu oh so fresh at all times!

AOS 4.1 could claim the best thermal performance of all OSes, finally returning the Amiga to prominence.

VVVVVVVVVVVVOOOOOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

MRJM

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ppcamiga1 
Re: Amiga hardware poll
Posted on 21-Jun-2020 7:49:41
#45 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 207
From: Unknown

@matthey

talk is cheap.

Show us working 68k that reach speed and comfort of use cheap pc from Windows 95 era.
Something that has at least 90 MHz Pentium performance, working FPU, MMU, PCI graphics 2D speed and at least 3D performance of PS1.
After twenty five years 68k still doesn't reach this.
Even vampire is not good enough.

Maybe ppc is underpowered and overpriced but at least it reach speed and comfort of use cheap pc from Windows 95 era.

This is difference between nice retro like ppc and something that should be in museum like 68k.

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bison 
Re: Amiga hardware poll
Posted on 21-Jun-2020 15:28:28
#46 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1643
From: N-Space

@Trekiej

Quote:
It seems like we are stuck with using a multi-core CPU and an open source emulator and OS to run our Amiga software.

That does solve the web browser problem.

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Trekiej 
Re: Amiga hardware poll
Posted on 21-Jun-2020 16:40:14
#47 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 17-Oct-2006
Posts: 782
From: Unknown

@MEGA_RJ_MICAL

Noooooooooooooo!

Last edited by Trekiej on 21-Jun-2020 at 04:40 PM.

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Trekiej 
Re: Amiga hardware poll
Posted on 21-Jun-2020 16:47:57
#48 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 17-Oct-2006
Posts: 782
From: Unknown

@bison

I will go with that. It is nice to have more Web Browsers being updated for this platform.

Having my favorite computer running on emulation leaves me stuck in the middle.
I wish for High Powered Hardware with no emulation.
If the Emulation was multi-threaded and gave the OS as much performance as possible, I could live with that.

I have Amiga OS 4.1 FE classic on this WinX machine and Amiga OS 4.1 FE Sam460ex on one of my laptops running Ubuntu 18.04.x I would like to use them more than I do now.

edit:
I am sorry, it is Manjaro Mate that I am using to run OS 4.1

Last edited by Trekiej on 21-Jun-2020 at 05:21 PM.

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Hypex 
Re: Amiga hardware poll
Posted on 21-Jun-2020 17:34:57
#49 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 9991
From: Greensborough, Australia

@matthey

Quote:
Apple bought P.A. Semi and ended the PWRficient line. PWRficient was the last completely new PPC design and the last hope for PPC


Either indirectly or directly Apple has hurt the Amiga PowerPC scene. The early AmigaOne was even delayed beacause Apple stole the PPC chips out from under it. One year they announce new 64-bit G5 chips and the next they are dumping 64-bit. After that they sought to go out and destroy all sources of PowerPC as if they owned the place.

Quote:
Motorola/Freescale/NXP can't blame anyone but themselves again.


They keep changing things. There was enough difference with Book S and Book E already. But then they wanted to corrupt it with SPE. Which isn't as bad as VLE which would be less compatible or not at all.

It's a PPC thing. The Mac had trouble. A Mac needed to have the exact boot disc it came with. Like an AmigaOne. On a PC you need any version of Windows. Clearly Intel are better at organising x86 so it remains compatible.

Quote:
A-EON may have been responsible for writing drivers for their own hardware


The AMD Radeon drivers are sold under AEON.

Quote:
With commodity hardware, that responsibility falls back to Hyperion.


Regardless of where the hardware comes from Hyperion ain't writing drivers unless they have been paid to. The financial responsibility falls on who ever is producing the board. Be that Acube, AEON or anyone else.

Quote:
Amiga stores could try to survive in commodity land but margins are likely razer thin and that is with buying in huge quantities. Maybe they could sell Amiga stickers, clothing and an Amiga styled case for that Raspberry Pi but is that enough to survive?


They do that now when they sell PC cards. Usually suited for an AmigaOne. Cards that have an OS4 driver. As well as customised PC cases like the X1000 Fractal case.

But, with your Pi example, I don't think that would work. That's too cheap. A more powerful ARM machine would be needed and you can't buy them anywhere still now. Though it may happen soon. Perhaps if people want to migrate from an Android tablet to a desktop, though they are more likely to be hackers.

In any case, I don't think off the shelf mobo hardware could be used. I think it would still need to be customised. Firmware. Support chips. With a more available, more powerful and cheaper CPU.

Quote:
Cloanto would have to change their philosophy about the Amiga to port AmigaOS to other architectures. Their current philosophy is to emulate the Amiga on other architectures.


Emulating an OS is easier than porting it natively!

Quote:
They may be open to doing more with AmigaOS now but I don't think porting to cheap hardware will pay for the cost of the port especially considering the loss of software compatibility


Depends how they do it. But porting AmigaOS to anything else isn't easy. Best to reimplement the whole thing and put in a transparent 68K emulator.

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smartroad 
Re: Amiga hardware poll
Posted on 21-Jun-2020 17:52:43
#50 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 13-Feb-2005
Posts: 209
From: United Kingdom

What about running on Risc-V :D

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ferrels 
Re: Amiga hardware poll
Posted on 21-Jun-2020 20:57:21
#51 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 849
From: Arizona

@bison

Quote:
@MEGA_RJ_MICAL

Polls are better than lawsuits and vaporware, and cheaper than books.


And in the case of the Amiga, just as pointless.

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Raffaele 
Re: Amiga hardware poll
Posted on 21-Jun-2020 21:05:57
#52 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Dec-2005
Posts: 1905
From: Naples, Italy

@Rose

Quote:

Rose wrote:
@Raffaele

Quote:
As long as I remember this campaign is for the first 5 prototypes (PCB making + PCB case coupling)...


[...]

You remember wrong.



This is why Italian site and English site versions do not match entirely.
In the Italian version it has been said that ACube already anticipated time and started working on PCB.

News of today...

They delayed of 30 days the expiration time for the donations, still 40 days remaining and here is what they published:

Quote:


PCB Ready by September 2020 – more time for donations

PCB Design Timeline

In the next few days the engineer taking care of the motherboard design will concentrate on the PCB, as the Electrical Schematics are now stable enough.

Thanks to the donations already received, the work on the PCB design ( done with Mentor pads ) can move forward and we estimate it could be completed by September 2020. The timing is somehow unfortunate, as August in Italy is a month where anybody is on holiday, nevertheless, we will do our best to avoid interruptions.The date of publication of the PCB design will depend on the results of the internal review process once we receive it, hopefully it will not take long. The design of the PCB fit inside the Slimbook Eclipse body.

Last edited by Raffaele on 21-Jun-2020 at 09:06 PM.

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fishy_fis 
Re: Amiga hardware poll
Posted on 21-Jun-2020 22:12:10
#53 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 1905
From: Australia

@Rose

One of the clearest real world indications of how incredibly dead ppc, etc. is.
When a single bounty cant reach 40,000 in almost a year. A bounty that covers pretty much every person on the planet interested in an ISA, yet cant even reach 40,000....... its much more dead than 68k even.

Reality doesnt matter though....... watch as people find obtuse ways to try to deny the facts that are clear as the nose to a face........ its AMIGAAHHH...... it must be the best right? ;)

Last edited by fishy_fis on 21-Jun-2020 at 10:25 PM.

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Raffaele 
Re: Amiga hardware poll
Posted on 22-Jun-2020 10:53:04
#54 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Dec-2005
Posts: 1905
From: Naples, Italy

@fishy_fis

This is second stage of the funding. Last year they collected almost 12.000€ for first stage of the project and contract with Acube and preliminary study of the hardware parts and realize electric schemes.

Many people donate once and for all because they believe that make a new computer including motherboard and prototyping requires a single stage project only.

As we use to say in Italy "They want the coconut already peeled" just as like those who buy a whole coconut at greengrocery and they don't know how to peel it safely because they seen only peeled coconuts at supermarket.

In the meanwhile these guys are trying to realize a big project here reviving the PowerPC even only as a research Open Hardware laptop computer and as good old Steve Jobs said: "The people who are crazy enough to think they can change the world are the ones who do it!"

Last edited by Raffaele on 22-Jun-2020 at 10:55 AM.

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1Mouse 
Re: Amiga hardware poll
Posted on 22-Jun-2020 15:54:07
#55 ]
Super Member
Joined: 23-Jun-2005
Posts: 1337
From: Bradford, West Yorkshire

How about AmigaOS 4.x running on an ARM powered laptop?

If Apple can move over to ARM processors why can't Amiga?

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Minimig
Sam440ep + OS4.1FE
Sam460cr + OS4.1FE

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BigD 
Re: Amiga hardware poll
Posted on 22-Jun-2020 16:41:21
#56 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5379
From: UK

@Raffaele

Quote:
as good old Steve Jobs said:


There was nothing innately 'good' about Steve Jobs.

https://www.businessinsider.com/steve-jobs-jerk-2011-10?r=US&IR=T#he-wanted-nothing-to-do-with-his-daughter-for-a-long-time-6

...the way he treated his daughter for decades was scandalous. He does not deserve our adulation and I type that from the keyboard of an Apple Mac!

Jay Miner / Chuck Peddle were true visionaries (worthy of the term) and inspiring and decent human beings to boot (Jay Miner worked on one of the first microprocessor-based cardiac pacemakers)!

What those two could have achieved if they'd been united during a different timeline at Commodore I would have loved to have seen!

Last edited by BigD on 22-Jun-2020 at 04:44 PM.

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Raffaele 
Re: Amiga hardware poll
Posted on 22-Jun-2020 17:16:03
#57 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Dec-2005
Posts: 1905
From: Naples, Italy

@BigD

I do not see Steve Jobs as a Guru.
Steve Jobs approach to Computers is Un-Amigaish, and the character personality is not pleasant in my eyes neither I am sympathetic with Apple policy.
Nevertheless in this peculiar occurrence the phrase "The people who are crazy enough to think they can change the world are the ones who do it!" matches perfectly the situation of the guys who want to revive PowerPC.

Amigans are becomig old and many lost their visionary attitude to try changing the world. I am speaking to those in Amiga camp who never lost this attitude and want to help changing things...

[EDIT]
Me too wanted to see the people of Commodore and the first Amiga Inc. collaborating in a different way than it happened in reality, but it never occcurred.

We have to fight with the weapons we have, and the people in the PowerPC-Notebook Project are precoius allies in this moment of our history.

Not to mention that the project foresee a complete Open Hardware design. These people will provide any Gerber/OrCAD files, and PowerPC Linux based free hardware Drivers complete with descriptions and lists of the driver settings.

This is more than we could hope.

This Open approach will grant any institutions, universities, group of privates (as for example us Amigans), any firms, industries, manufacturers free to replicate or build this PowerPC Laptop or even enhance this model design with new features or processors.

Last edited by Raffaele on 22-Jun-2020 at 05:31 PM.
Last edited by Raffaele on 22-Jun-2020 at 05:28 PM.

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Hypex 
Re: Amiga hardware poll
Posted on 22-Jun-2020 17:20:29
#58 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 9991
From: Greensborough, Australia

@1Mouse

Because that's a lot of work.

Rewrite all PPC ASM routines as ARM ASM.
Redefine somehow PPC specific structures to include new ARM support.
Update all includes files to be ARM ABI friendly.
Modify compiler to produce ARM code with APICALL magic used in interface jump tables.
Actually compile a new compiler than can compile new ARM OS4 code.
Actually compile a new assembler than can assemble new ARM OS4 code.
Recompile all C code in ARM with different ARM ABI.
Port 68K emulator to ARM.
Write new 68K JIT for ARM.
Write PPC emulator for PPC apps.

That's ten steps so far. I won't go on. That's why!

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Raffaele 
Re: Amiga hardware poll
Posted on 22-Jun-2020 17:29:54
#59 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Dec-2005
Posts: 1905
From: Naples, Italy

@Hypex

Cross compilers do already exist and output code for any architecture...

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fishy_fis 
Re: Amiga hardware poll
Posted on 22-Jun-2020 18:16:01
#60 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 1905
From: Australia

@Raffaele

Quote:
"The people who are crazy enough to think they can change the world are the ones who do it!"


What does that have to do with ppc, the bounty, or Amiga ?
All archaic technologies that are nothing more than something for tinkerers to play with.
Obsolete, unsupported tech changes nothing for anyone, apart from those wanting to take hobbyists money in exchange for slow, crappy hardware like x1000, x5000, this laptop, or Tabor systems.

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