Gunnar's SAGA custom chip implementation is not derived from Thomas. It's certainly derived from the experience with him during Natami days but it's total new rewritten VHDL code.
SAGA It's NOT a 2nd thread of the CPU (I'm no expert but I think this thing would not work, either).
SAGA on v4 is both a reimplementation of the original AGA chipset and a general extensions of his functionality to modernize it in the spirit of the original chipset.
Saga's registers works as the Amiga registers, same way.
If someone wants to take a look on the SAGA registers can look here.
http://www.apollo-core.com/index.htm?page=coding&tl=2&z=tFzY2w

Gunnar's son is making some YouTube videos about coding SAGA that shows how to code some of the new features like the 16 bit audio, or display a picture like these:
https://youtu.be/6-G2nch5EOM
https://youtu.be/_bi_1t1K-_Y
https://youtu.be/LkMO0kwSMZU

Last edited by DrProcton on 07-Jul-2021 at 12:34 PM.

@matthey

Quote:

matthey wrote: Lou Quote: You don't 'believe'. That's all you had to say. I don't say for sure what I don't know for sure. Lou Quote: SAGA is still not open-sourced. You linked to a post of me asking where it is. Where is it? I see CPU registers but a DEDICATED CHIP wouldn't have CPU REGISTERS, it would have registers shadowed in a bank of RAM like every other piece of hardware that exists. I don't know why the SAGA sources aren't available to the public as I have nothing to do with it. Where do you see CPU registers? CPU core registers are in the CPU core but usually not directly accessible on the memory bus (some old architectures have low memory addresses available as CPU registers but I don't know if they would be available to another processor using the memory bus). SAGA registers should be external from the CPU core and in SAGA connected to the memory bus. Everything is in one FPGA chip and memory blocks in the FPGA may be near each other so the registers are physically close but the connections should make them independent. This is the problem of an FPGA which is routing inefficiency and mismatched resources. In an ASIC SoC, the CPU core logic would be further from the SAGA logic rather than scattered about and intermingled in an FPGA. Lou Quote: I believe Thomas Hirsch has the ability to recreate and enhance AGA, but the 'SAGA' within the Vampire line is nothing more than routines operating on fast-ram in the extra thread of the cpu unused by the OS...so it feels like free processing. Recall that Thomas used real 68k CPUs to debug the Natami hardware and SAGA in the beginning where there was no 2nd thread. It would be possible to setup emulation inside an FPGA using a processor to emulate the Amiga custom chips but it would give poor performance as the custom chips are the most difficult part of the Amiga to emulate requiring at least a medium performance CPU core to avoid slow downs and glitches. Since SAGA was already mostly working for Thomas, it is logical to assume that Gunnar would use it instead of emulation on the 2nd CPU thread. BigD Quote: That's why the increased cost over the previously announced Raptor matters. We now have feature creep over and above the 080 accelerator and Ram to include the SAGA which may be a damp squib. SAGA takes little space in the FPGA. I would guess no more than 20% of the resources and likely less. This would be maybe $5-$10 U.S. to include.

I am not denying Thomas H's skill. I was a big fan of the NATAMI.

I am not denying Gunnar wrote *something* to output HDMI/DVI.

I see he expanded docs here finally:
http://www.apollo-core.com/sagadoc/

BUT... SAGA is RTG. So it's all in the RTG driver. All someone needs to do is dis-assemble the driver and you'll have your answer.

When you plug in a board to Amiga, it maps to a memory bank like fastram. Should be pretty easy to figure out what's going on just by looking at the driver.

@DrProcton

Note that C= has licensed SGI's OpenGL 3D for Amiga Hombre and AmigaOS 3.X has RTG direction which enables AmigaOS compatibles such as DraCo to exist.

In the PC world, VGA is kept for Windows "safe mode" and legacy compatibility. During Windows 95 era, most SVGA vendors focused on making common VGA faster for DOS games and supported the DirectX gaming abstraction layer for adding new hardware features.

Gunnar's son's programming examples are continuing the hit-the-metal chipset dependency creating separation between AmigaOS3.X RTG-AHI/AmigaOS 4.X RTG-AHI path and hit-the-metal chipset dependency path.

Prior to Windows 95 DirectX gaming abstraction layer, different VESA implementations and non-VGA/SVGA such as TIGA vendor wannabes went in multiple IHV (independent hardware vendor) specific directions.

I read http://www.apollo-core.com/sagadoc/ and I can see extended hardware features which are IHV specific direction. Apollo Accelerators are not Commodore-Amiga Inc and it shouldn't be treated as such.

I hated IHV specific extensions such as 3DFX's Glide, S3Metal and it's a good thing they all died.

Note that AMD allows AMD64/X86-64 clones such as Transmeta Crusoe/Efficeon, VIA Nano, and Intel 64 and donated Mantle API to the Khronos Group which turned Mantle API into Vulkan API.

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_________________
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Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@Hammer
Yes, Arne's examples of coding are in the style of metal bashing, banging registers directly, but this doesn't exclude that a specific Saga.library can't be realized in the future.
Commodore in his late years not recommended this way to code anymore because they wanted to get rid of the chipset legacy as the new technologies in development was very different and would brake compatibility. But developers especially game coders went for hw bash anyway as it was more efficient than passing through an abstraction layer.
Now we know we have no new chipset from Commodore, so Gunnar's SAGA chipset is a more coherent upgrade than using pc-style hardware. So that hw bashing is still a fast and effective way to code as was in the nineties.

@lou
SAGA is NOT an RTG driver. Is a complete re-implemntation of the legacy chipset with many improvements over the original. The complete SAGA chipset is present only on the V4 and new accelerators coming 'firebird' and 'icedrake'.

Last edited by DrProcton on 08-Jul-2021 at 06:27 AM.

@DrProcton

Game coders went through hardware bashing due to lack of choice / no option.
The hardware wasn't getting updated, AAA was cancelled and PC hardware wasn't compatible.

_________________
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@SHADES

Yes, but hardware bashing is even 'fun'.
It gives you complete control over the machine and makes you fully understand how your computer works. No surprise demosceners still are producing amazing things that way even in 2021.

@DrProcton

It's not fun at all when there are changes and enhancements that break compatibility and code, stops working or crashes the machine.
Programs that rely on that legacy to remain there forever are what causes issues for any future development and should be avoided, if possible.

_________________
It's not the question that's the problem, it's the problem that's the question.

@DrProcton

Quote:

DrProcton wrote: @lou SAGA is NOT an RTG driver.

On the V2 cards, for all practical purposes, that is ALL it is - a framebuffer for an RTG driver.

_________________
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@DrProcton

Quote:

Yes, Arne's examples of coding are in the style of metal bashing, banging registers directly, but this doesn't exclude that a specific Saga.library can't be realized in the future. Commodore in his late years not recommended this way to code anymore because they wanted to get rid of the chipset legacy as the new technologies in development was very different and would brake compatibility. But developers especially game coders went for hw bash anyway as it was more efficient than passing through an abstraction layer. Now we know we have no new chipset from Commodore, so Gunnar's SAGA chipset is a more coherent upgrade than using pc-style hardware. So that hw bashing is still a fast and effective way to code as was in the nineties.

Near hit-the-metal programming exists for the following modern platforms
Sony's PS4/PS5 via GNM.

AMD's GCN Shader Intrinsic functions as extensions to Vulkan, Direct3D11, and Direct3D12. AMD's Shader Intrinsic creates vendor-specific code paths and modeled like Sony's GNM. Mantle API doesn't include GCN Shader Intrinsic functions.

RDNA's GCN backward compatibility exists for Sony PS4/PS5's benefit. Sony's Playstation platform is a "garden wall" with complete monopoly within it.

https://imgur.com/UgwhUd2
MS DirectML infrastructure has support from hardware partners that enables architecture-specific optimizations.

Nintendo Switch has NVN API which can be bridged on Vulkan. Many recent 3D game console emulators are built on Vulkan.

The abstraction layer can be designed as low level or high level.

Lower level Vulkan and DirectX12 APIs are between high-level DirectX11/OpenGL APIs and GPU drivers.

With SAGA, it looks like Apollo Accelerators has followed "Phase 5" gold plating forking.

Last edited by Hammer on 08-Jul-2021 at 10:56 AM.
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_________________
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Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@DrProcton

Quote:

DrProcton wrote: @SHADES Yes, but hardware bashing is even 'fun'. It gives you complete control over the machine and makes you fully understand how your computer works. No surprise demosceners still are producing amazing things that way even in 2021.

Amazing things? NVIDIA RTX tech demos murder it!

Doom is both a tech demo and a real game.
Quake is both a tech demo and a real game.

Quake and Flight Unlimited pushed me towards Pentium 150 purchase in 1996.

Quake 3 NV15 pushed me to buy GeForce 2 MX

Crysis is both a tech demo and a real game. A known trigger for GeForce 8 era purchase.

Sorry, pal. You're in co-co land.

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_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@Hammer
I have a Playstation5 and still marvel when I see something like tbl-EON running on an a500. And yes the main coder of that Amiga demo works as main engeneer at Dice (you should know a game called Battlefield).
Why he spent two years of his free time for an Amiga500 demo?
Because is still a coherent and elegant machine, or maybe just for fun or to prove himself he can really code.
The result is stunning for me. If only Nvidia rtx amazes you i'm sorry for you..

@Hammer

Quote:

Gunnar's son's programming examples are continuing the hit-the-metal chipset dependency creating separation between AmigaOS3.X RTG-AHI/AmigaOS 4.X RTG-AHI path and hit-the-metal chipset dependency path.

it’s creates a separation between

Amiga4000/2000/1200 RTG and Vampire/Apollo RTG, also.

and

Amiga4000/2000/1200 AHI and Vampire/Apollo 16bit audio, also.

This not a new a problem for MorphOS and AmigaOS4.x users.
We have living with stubborn developer that write crap software for a while, we have EUAE, and FSUAE for this kind of stuff.

Anyway crap software written for Vampire should be easier (faster) to deal with then crap software witten for Amiga, at least the bitmap format is the same (so should be faster to emulate). We need to hack EAUE a bit to make it work, thats all.

This not disadvantage for emulators.

Quote:

Apollo Accelerators are not Commodore-Amiga Inc and it shouldn't be treated as such.

I hope users complain when things, crash and don’t work on none Vampire hardware, running UVE (Universal Vampire Emulator) on Amiga4000/3000 and Amiga1200 can solve the problem, sure its not going to be nice experience.

the correct way forward is to make Picasso96 drivers and AHI drivers, and programmers use this.

I think the problem here is if there is someone who decides to make XAGA or TAGA or some other AGA, that uses the addresses for other things, then everything breaks. And if they keep extending it, it will result in less address space. If they are creating a standard, they should be open to other accelerator boards using the same addresses, or else you have a mess on your hands. They can technically patent it, and prevent others from doing the same. In order to try kill of competitors.

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@DrProcton

Quote:

but this doesn't exclude that a specific Saga.library can't be realized in the future. .

they should do it now, not wait, the longer they wait the biger this problem gets.

They take a look at chipset.library, its a attempt to make software API for hardware banging stuff. Providing a software API, allows for a fallback, when hardware is not there, at least things does not stop working, if might run slower, when hardware is not there, that’s all.

Anyway

JSR libSubRutine(A6)
vs poking hardware direct.
do they really save that many CPU cycles?

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@Thread

Anyway, interesting though SAGA registers etc are, does anyone know when they expect first deliveries of these 'mythical beast' accelerators? Is 450 Euros reasonable considering the V4 Standalone is 549 Euros?

It would be nice to discuss the actual release of a new 'cheaper' accelerator compared to endless discussions about SAGA; something some of us won't even use!

_________________
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John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

"It would be nice to discuss the actual release of a new 'cheaper' accelerator compared to endless discussions about SAGA; something some of us won't even use!"

Aww I dunno about that. You say that until you complain about screen re-draw on a 16 colour WB background that's still stuck in the year 1985 with a mind-blowing 320x512 resolution.
It absolutely needs a re-design with modern graphical resolutions and speeds but not at a hardware banging level to get there.
That's just dumb.

Last edited by SHADES on 08-Jul-2021 at 11:22 PM.

_________________
It's not the question that's the problem, it's the problem that's the question.

I don’t often play Doom or Quake, but when I do, it’s in a full screen browser tab on my 5+ year old laptop. And not on the Amiga.

Pinball, Lemmings, Worms DC, Monkey Island etc however… I play on Amiga.

_________________
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@kolla

And that's all it's capable of unless things change.
You certainly won't use current Amiga for editing video, DAW work, Graphic workloads like photos, multi-tasking word processing, printing, desktop publishing, Internet, file transfers, database work....etc etc

_________________
It's not the question that's the problem, it's the problem that's the question.

@SHADES

...and for 450 Euro on top of a A1200 that is going for 400+ Euro on eBay these days or the 'cheaper' option of 549 Euro for a V4 Standalone, why would you choose an Amiga to do:

Quote:

...editing video, DAW work, Graphic workloads like photos, multi-tasking word processing, printing, desktop publishing, Internet, file transfers, database work....etc etc

?

Maybe an investment in an A500-in-a-joystick or a mini-console A500 is really the 'only' way forward to raise interest in the platform beyond the die-hards however great the SAGA implementation on the V4 mobos is on a hardware level?

Last edited by BigD on 09-Jul-2021 at 12:12 AM.
Last edited by BigD on 08-Jul-2021 at 11:45 PM.

_________________
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John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@SHADES

Quote:

Aww I dunno about that. You say that until you complain about screen re-draw on a 16 colour WB background that's still stuck in the year 1985 with a mind-blowing 320x512 resolution.

If the 080 core is as fast as claimed then the speed boost to AGA is more than sufficient to justify a £200-300 niche Amiga accelerator! What is confusing is why the Apollo Team think that SAGA, USB controller support, ethernet, microSD, digital out and fast IDE ports are worth an extra £80-£180 over and above what seems reasonable to someone that just wants a modern accelerator!

How much is a PiStorm by comparison?

£50.00 PiStorm Rev B Adapter
£24.12 RPi Model 3A+
Total £74.12!!!

Therefore, there exists an insane Apollo Team mark up for these 'low end' marketed products and it's also too close to the V4 Standalone price point IMHO!

Last edited by BigD on 08-Jul-2021 at 11:58 PM.
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_________________
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@Thread

Also, Raptor sounded better than IceDrake. I know it's a type of dragon but it just makes me think of a cold duck!


Quote:

A drake is a fully sexually mature adult male duck of any duck species, wild or domestic, though males do not have to have attracted a mate or sired ducklings in order to be called drakes.

_________________
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