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      /  x86/ARM - viable way
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ppcamiga1 
x86/ARM - viable way
Posted on 5-Oct-2021 7:34:31
#1 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 366
From: Unknown

When I read threads like "Is it game over for OS4" I laugh.
Attacks on Amiga Os 4 is road to nowhere.
As long as AROS or any other aos clone are is worth nothing, nothing will change.
AROS or any other aos clone on commodity hardware cannot be a shit compared to Windows/Linux/OSX.
Nobody will spend ten or more time to do exact the some work on exact the some computer on AROS or any other aos clone.
Any sane person just switch to Windows/Linux/OSX.
Amiga OS clone on commodity hardware may be 10% max 15% worse Windows/Linux/OSX.
No more.
It must be something like Amiga Os X.
Amiga GUI and graphics on unix base.
Amiga experience on modern base.
The only viable way to commodity hardware is to made good Amiga Os gui and graphics open source clone.
And it need to be done on ppc for speed and compatibility reasons.
first ppc aros should be fixed to add integration like on MOS or Amiga Os 4.
Then zune should be fixed to reach at least mui 3.8 compatibility.
Then good gui builder should be made for it.
Then zune should be made more modern.
When it all be done We may use commodity hardware.
Of course zune should also work on 68k and ppc.
Anybody who want to use it should be free to use it where want.
Cooperation is important to keep compatibility.

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g_kraszewski 
Re: x86/ARM - viable way
Posted on 5-Oct-2021 8:45:58
#2 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 3-Sep-2010
Posts: 343
From: Unknown

@ppcamiga1

AROS is open source. Go and fix it as you like.

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TRIPOS 
Re: x86/ARM - viable way
Posted on 5-Oct-2021 9:37:12
#3 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1154
From: Unknown

@ppcamiga1

Quote:

ppcamiga1 wrote:

AROS or any other aos clone on commodity hardware cannot be a shit compared to Windows/Linux/OSX.
Nobody will spend ten or more time to do exact the some work on exact the some computer on AROS or any other aos clone.
Any sane person just switch to Windows/Linux/OSX.


You constantly (and purposely?) misunderstand the reasons to migrate away from PPC. Itís obviously NOT about suddenly competing with Windows/Linux/OSX. That thought is hilarious, where did you get that from?

Itís all about Amigans interested in a NG evolution having access to modern, powerful and reasonable priced hardware. Thatís all! Nothing about Linux or Windows at all, we all already got these!

Unlike OS4, MorphOS has access to the most powerful mainstream PPC hardware from the heights of the PPC era. But ďsimpleĒ things like browsing the contemporary web by using a 2021 level browser (Wayfarer) makes it obvious that more grunt power is needed. Sure, a JS JIT would improve things, but that wonít happen and there still is an obvious need of more horsepower. We are using HW whose performance is of a two decades old standard. A lot has happened since then, HW wise. But not in the Amiga world, time has been standing still here when it comes to performance, and in OS4ís case itís almost going backwards. The Tabor will not be an improvement. And thatís the best hope you have of a ďfutureĒ () on PPC.

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bison 
Re: x86/ARM - viable way
Posted on 5-Oct-2021 15:57:50
#4 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1912
From: N-Space

@ppcamiga1

I can go along with some of thatóI thinkóalthough I'm never quite sure what you're saying.

AmigaOS hosted on Linux I would like, since I could run Amiga apps on the same desktop along side a modern browser.

I have an xsession .desktop file that logs straight into AROS full screen, which is a kind of proof-of-concept. That "rabbit hole" thing would make it seamless, but it works fine hosted in a window as well. It uses a lot less CPU than emulation.

So this is hosting for "new" apps, and emulation for "legacy" apps.

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SHADES 
Re: x86/ARM - viable way
Posted on 5-Oct-2021 20:37:12
#5 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 706
From: Melbourne

@bison

Nahh, I don't agree on Linux as the OS.

Just run Linux and UAE then.
There is no incentive to develop AMIGA OS under host/emulation. It's just another distro and they take time and a lot of development. May as well put that energy into moving to a cheap buy-in platform and start re-building AMIGA OS native to that. People seem to balk at "Raspberry Pi" however, it's cheap, easy to program for, easy to expand, lots of knowledge on how to access the hardware, built in standard GPU and NOT limited to just Linux or Windows.
Or, choose another cheap SOC platform that has a standard that won't change every iteration that breaks it.

Last edited by SHADES on 05-Oct-2021 at 08:50 PM.

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SHADES 
Re: x86/ARM - viable way
Posted on 5-Oct-2021 20:40:32
#6 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 706
From: Melbourne

@TRIPOS

Quote:
You constantly (and purposely?) misunderstand the reasons to migrate away from PPC. Itís obviously NOT about suddenly competing with Windows/Linux/OSX. That thought is hilarious, where did you get that from? Itís all about Amigans interested in a NG evolution having access to modern, powerful and reasonable priced hardware. Thatís all! Nothing about Linux or Windows at all, we all already got these! Unlike OS4, MorphOS has access to the most powerful mainstream PPC hardware from the heights of the PPC era. But ďsimpleĒ things like browsing the contemporary web by using a 2021 level browser (Wayfarer) makes it obvious that more grunt power is needed. Sure, a JS JIT would improve things, but that wonít happen and there still is an obvious need of more horsepower. We are using HW whose performance is of a two decades old standard. A lot has happened since then, HW wise. But not in the Amiga world, time has been standing still here when it comes to performance, and in OS4ís case itís almost going backwards. The Tabor will not be an improvement. And thatís the best hope you have of a ďfutureĒ () on PPC.


Agreed. Well put.

The OS must move forward. HAIKU recognised this with BeOS too.
What's with the obsession with PPC! it's not cheap!
PPC was a bad choice back then, worse now, move on.
Seriously, good luck generating interest of any volume in sales.

Hosting on another OS is pointless when you can just run an emulator on that OS anyway.
There will be no need for any progress doing that, a single core for that OS is all that you need and no one will ever do anything about it.

Moving to a cost-positive platform is required. So is using new modern hardware. If that means breaking compatibility, then it has to happen and emulation used for legacy, otherwise, use an emulator.

Last edited by SHADES on 05-Oct-2021 at 08:44 PM.

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bison 
Re: x86/ARM - viable way
Posted on 5-Oct-2021 21:46:45
#7 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1912
From: N-Space

@SHADES

Quote:
Just run Linux and UAE then.

That's what I'm doing.

Emulating an A500 is fine, so it works well for retro games, but emulating an A4000 uses too much CPU. Even an A1200 can get the fans going.

AROS hosted is fast, and uses almost no CPU, but there are no native apps to speak of.

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SHADES 
Re: x86/ARM - viable way
Posted on 5-Oct-2021 22:07:04
#8 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 706
From: Melbourne

@bison

Quote:
That's what I'm doing. Emulating an A500 is fine, so it works well for retro games, but emulating an A4000 uses too much CPU. Even an A1200 can get the fans going. AROS hosted is fast, and uses almost no CPU, but there are no native apps to speak of.


Yep. I think AROS has a good chance of moving forward with some serious extra development help however, you can just run AROS hosted on Linux if you want to fix that.

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agami 
Re: x86/ARM - viable way
Posted on 6-Oct-2021 6:33:42
#9 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 658
From: Melbourne, Australia

@SHADES @TRIPOS
Love your work. Well put.

@ppcamiga1
When the CPU you are using is not working for you, it's time to move to a new CPU.
NeXT knew this, and moved from 68k to x86. NeXT didn't fail because it moved to x86. There were other issues and market conditions that contributed to that.
Be Inc knew this, and moved from PPC to x86. Their failure was also not related to the x86 move.
Sun Microsystems knew this, and moved from their own SPARC to x86. Sun also had other issues which ultimately made them a buyout target for Oracle.
SGI knew this, and moved from MIPS to x86. Similar issues to Sun, eventually bought out by HP.
Apple knew this, and moved from PPC to x86. Worked out pretty good for them.
Microsoft's XBOX division knew this, and moved from PPC to x86. Also good move.
Sony's Playstation division also knew this, and moved from PPC to x86. Another good move.

Just because an OS moves from one CPU architecture to x86, does not mean you might as well just run Windows/Linux.

As @TRIPOS said, most of us do that already. My main machine at home is Linux, also 2 home servers are Linux. My gaming PC is Windows, and my VR PC is Windows.

Would I rather run AmigaOS for all my server, desktop gaming, VR, and productivity needs? Yes.
But the apps are not there. I don't run operating systems to prove some sort of point. I run them to accomplish tasks. Time is just as valuable as money, if not more so. If the same task can be performed on more than one system, I'm going to choose the the OS that has the apps that allow me to perform that task the quickest or with a workflow that is aligned with my own cognitive processes.

There was a time in the late '80s and for most of the '90s when my go-to system for most tasks was an Amiga. Not because it ran on a 68k CPU, but because it had the apps that helped my output.

Apps come from developers. And unless they're coding in assembly, most of them don't give a f#@& about what CPU is in the system. What they care about is modern app development tools, APIs and SDKs, and that there is a large enough user base.

Last edited by agami on 06-Oct-2021 at 08:19 AM.

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ppcamiga1 
Re: x86/ARM - viable way
Posted on 6-Oct-2021 7:03:08
#10 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 366
From: Unknown

@g_kraszewski

It is obvious that AROS should be made usable by people that want to switch from ppc.
For example You.

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ppcamiga1 
Re: x86/ARM - viable way
Posted on 6-Oct-2021 7:26:15
#11 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 366
From: Unknown

@TRIPOS

Quote:

You constantly (and purposely?) misunderstand the reasons to migrate away from PPC. Itís obviously NOT about suddenly competing with Windows/Linux/OSX.

Itís all about Amigans interested in a NG evolution having access to modern, powerful and reasonable priced hardware. Thatís all! Nothing about Linux or Windows at all, we all already got these!


Your idea is to made something as slow as ppc, as outdated as ppc but cheaper.
It will be cheaper but not source and binary compatible.
Nothing other change.
It is stupid.
Get lost with this crap.
Aros and any other aos clone on x86/arm compete with Windows/Linux/OSX.
It may be little worse but no more than 10% maybe 15%.

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agami 
Re: x86/ARM - viable way
Posted on 6-Oct-2021 8:28:13
#12 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 658
From: Melbourne, Australia

@ppcamiga1

Quote:
Your idea is to made something as slow as ppc, as outdated as ppc but cheaper. It will be cheaper but not source and binary compatible. Nothing other change.

On the contrary, everything changes.
It's not just about what it is like on Day 1. Even if it were the same speed, and just as outdated as PPC, the immediate benefit is price. The future benefits however, that's where the opportunities are for Amiga.
With PPC, there is no future. Who cares if you have binary compatibility?

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michalsc 
Re: x86/ARM - viable way
Posted on 6-Oct-2021 8:44:37
#13 ]
AROS Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jun-2005
Posts: 307
From: Germany

@agami

Please, do not feed that troll... ;)

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agami 
Re: x86/ARM - viable way
Posted on 6-Oct-2021 10:23:09
#14 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 658
From: Melbourne, Australia

@michalsc

I shall take your advice.

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amigang 
Re: x86/ARM - viable way
Posted on 6-Oct-2021 11:25:41
#15 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2005
Posts: 1682
From: Cheshire, England

@SHADES

Quote:
There is no incentive to develop AMIGA OS under host/emulation


I beg to differ, I promoted Amikit XE recently on YouTube and the pi400, I had a few emails asking about it, and got quite a bit of interest, I think the product has sold well for the developers and encourage more development of the Amiberry emulator to improve it more and more for the platform.

Itís not just amikit either, Pimga has also had a lot of interest and support for its project, are these ideal solutions to pushing the platform forward, Iím not sure but at this moment in time what we really need is renewed interest in the platform to grow it.

I hope a500 mini which again if you stop and think about is again just a emulated product might capture some new fans to the market to.

Last edited by amigang on 06-Oct-2021 at 11:37 AM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: x86/ARM - viable way
Posted on 6-Oct-2021 15:32:01
#16 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11921
From: Norway

@amigang

Quote:
I beg to differ, I promoted Amikit XE recently on YouTube and the pi400, I had a few emails asking about it, and got quite a bit of interest, I think the product has sold well for the developers and encourage more development of the Amiberry emulator to improve it more and more for the platform.

Pi400 is interesting low-cost computer, but a new Amiga? When you emulate the hardware, the software is limited to hardware you emulate, nothing can plugged in that be directly used by the OS.
Quote:
Itís not just amikit either, Pimga has also had a lot of interest and support for its project, are these ideal solutions to pushing the platform forward, Iím not sure


Adding Mhz alone, donít fix anything, you need a good SDK/NDK, you need lots memory, at work i use chrome browser tabs some times use 2GB of RAM or more, and thats is more then all upgraded Amiga systems have. And I have like 8 or 10 tabs open.

You can have more then 2Gb of ram, if AmigaOS3.2 had support for virtual memory, but people want scarify the MMU for speed. You donít need speed, there is nothing that needs it.

Quote:
I hope a500 mini which again if you stop and think about is again just a emulated product might capture some new fans to the market to.

Does not have full-size working keyboard, its only to run games, no new developers will come of this.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 06-Oct-2021 at 04:16 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 06-Oct-2021 at 03:34 PM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: x86/ARM - viable way
Posted on 6-Oct-2021 15:40:17
#17 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11921
From: Norway

@bison

Quote:
AROS hosted is fast, and uses almost no CPU, but there are no native apps to speak of.


true, if this had happened long, long time ago, thing be whery different now, instead of fighting about x86, ppc, arm, 680x0 people should write C/C++ code, and advocate open source.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 06-Oct-2021 at 04:13 PM.

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bison 
Re: x86/ARM - viable way
Posted on 6-Oct-2021 15:56:51
#18 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1912
From: N-Space

@NutsAboutAmiga

We finally agree about something! Perhaps we should celebrate.

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amigang 
Re: x86/ARM - viable way
Posted on 6-Oct-2021 20:33:40
#19 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2005
Posts: 1682
From: Cheshire, England

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
When you emulate the hardware, the software is limited to hardware you emulate, nothing can plugged in that be directly used by the OS.


? Donít quite understand this, emulation still has a long way to go to get more performance and add extra things, perfect example is why not emulate the 68080 core and super-aga chipset found in the vampire, future software is being developed to support that so more advanced things can be done on the Amiga. Having this on emulator may make more developers write things for that platform.

Plus there are other uses, a guy who use this to produce an in expensive render farm, https://blitterstudio.com/amiberry-powered-lightwave-render-farm/

Plus host-run / rabbit hole proves that you can write things with in AmigaOs that gives it access to more powerful thing that maybe Amigaos canít. Simple thing is Iím able to Listen and control Spotify without leaving Amigaos desktop.

Just because you canít think of uses, doesnít mean other canít.

I would actually like to see more done to make the Os aware that itís on emulated hardware so more interest things could done maybe.

Quote:

Does not have full-size working keyboard, its only to run games, no new developers will come of this.

Let me guess you a glass half empty kind of guy? Well Iím a glass is half full, I see it like it going to generate new interest, it already kind of has, maybe just one person out of the 100s who buy the a500 mini, maybe just maybe start looking a what else they can buy in the Amiga market they may not have much knowledge but want to experience the software side, they may find that a simple ready to run system like amikit Xe is out for windows and pi400, they may pick one up, they may enjoy it and begin programming you can call me crazy for having that kind of optimism.

Last edited by amigang on 06-Oct-2021 at 08:51 PM.
Last edited by amigang on 06-Oct-2021 at 08:45 PM.

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SHADES 
Re: x86/ARM - viable way
Posted on 6-Oct-2021 22:36:21
#20 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 706
From: Melbourne

@amigang

Quote:
I beg to differ, I promoted Amikit XE recently on YouTube and the pi400, I had a few emails asking about it, and got quite a bit of interest, I think the product has sold well for the developers and encourage more development of the Amiberry emulator to improve it more and more for the platform. Itís not just amikit either, Pimga has also had a lot of interest and support for its project, are these ideal solutions to pushing the platform forward, Iím not sure but at this moment in time what we really need is renewed interest in the platform to grow it. I hope a500 mini which again if you stop and think about is again just a emulated product might capture some new fans to the market to.


I am mainly talking about modern feature sets like SMP and memory management tasks for the OS etc
Anything emulation is not going to push the OS development forward. If it does, it's going to be at such a slow pace, why bother.
That's my point.
I would bet you that the interest in emulation would not be growing the Amiga user base by much. Certainly not in development of the OS itself.
I'm not saying even a single user gained is bad, at this stage, AMIGA needs even a single user but OS development, for emulation? I don't see it.

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