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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
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PosterThread
ne_one 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 27-Oct-2021 2:12:05
#121 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Jun-2005
Posts: 905
From: Unknown

@Fl@sh

Quote:
Maybe we need to redefine the word "AMIGA".
What's Amiga? What's AmigaOS?

IMHO Amiga != Linux != Windows


So the Amiga is defined not by what it is but by what it isn't?

Those who want to maintain the status quo have many options to continue to use the platform preserved in its legacy state. Long live 1993.

But there are many others who want to see the Amiga evolve. It doesn't mean sacrificing its spirit, it means continuing to embrace it in the context of contemporary technology.

The Mac has remained viable and millions of its users have stayed captive despite transitioning its "under the hood" technologies several times. Why? Because it's not about the underlying technology.

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agami 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 27-Oct-2021 2:39:23
#122 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 964
From: Melbourne, Australia

What we need to define is Why is Amiga?

You may remember that in the late '90s, for a very brief blip in Amiga's sordid history, Gateway shared its plans for the Amiga and a release of the ultimate multi-media computer with a new operating system which would use the Linux kernel, but everything else on top of it would be new Amiga OS systems and libraries, including a unique windowing system that could also be ported over to Linux as a replacement for X11.

Soon after Gateway gave up on its short-lived Amiga ownership, the new Amiga Inc. floated the idea of potentially using the Neutrino micro-kernel from QNX as the the new foundation.

Of course we all know that taking a Unix kernel and building custom bits on top is what NeXT did, and it eventually became the strategy for the future of MacOS.

I personally prefer the micro-kernel architecture over the monolithic architecture, but either way using an existing free (liberally licensed) kernel saves time in developing a new OS. It is still a lot of work of course.

_________________
All the way, with 68k

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bison 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 27-Oct-2021 5:10:02
#123 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 2088
From: N-Space

@agami

Quote:
I personally prefer the micro-kernel architecture over the monolithic architecture, but either way using an existing free (liberally licensed) kernel saves time in developing a new OS.

I might prefer a micro-kernel in theory, but in practice I've only experienced 1 Linux kernel panic in 23 years, so I can't make a rational case for it on practical grounds.

_________________
"Unix is supposed to fix that." -- Jay Miner

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deadwood 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 27-Oct-2021 6:27:24
#124 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 4-Nov-2008
Posts: 410
From: Unknown

@kamelito

Quote:

kamelito wrote:
@deadwood

You mean any C based Amiga project can be compiled and run unmodified under Linux?


'Any' is probably too much to ask for, but 'most' will be.

_________________
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matthey 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 27-Oct-2021 6:41:53
#125 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1502
From: Kansas

kamelito Quote:

You mean any C based Amiga project can be compiled and run unmodified under Linux?


Linux has 64 bit addressing, SMP, memory protection, program isolation, resource tracking and unlimited device drivers which the Amiga on top of a Linux kernel will magically inherit with a recompile too. The pasture is always greener on the other side of the fence.

ne_one Quote:

Those who want to maintain the status quo have many options to continue to use the platform preserved in its legacy state. Long live 1993.

But there are many others who want to see the Amiga evolve. It doesn't mean sacrificing its spirit, it means continuing to embrace it in the context of contemporary technology.

The Mac has remained viable and millions of its users have stayed captive despite transitioning its "under the hood" technologies several times. Why? Because it's not about the underlying technology.


The Mac is absolutely about hardware too. Customers may not care what the underlying hardware is but they do care about the performance, price and features. If hardware was not important, then why did apple become a fabless semiconductor business?

agami Quote:

What we need to define is Why is Amiga?


Amiga used to be about providing an affordable efficient easy to use PC for the masses not the classes. Time to get back to basics?

agami Quote:

You may remember that in the late '90s, for a very brief blip in Amiga's sordid history, Gateway shared its plans for the Amiga and a release of the ultimate multi-media computer with a new operating system which would use the Linux kernel, but everything else on top of it would be new Amiga OS systems and libraries, including a unique windowing system that could also be ported over to Linux as a replacement for X11.

Soon after Gateway gave up on its short-lived Amiga ownership, the new Amiga Inc. floated the idea of potentially using the Neutrino micro-kernel from QNX as the the new foundation.

Of course we all know that taking a Unix kernel and building custom bits on top is what NeXT did, and it eventually became the strategy for the future of MacOS.

I personally prefer the micro-kernel architecture over the monolithic architecture, but either way using an existing free (liberally licensed) kernel saves time in developing a new OS. It is still a lot of work of course.


I too prefer a non-monolithic kernel. I preferred QNX over Linux as it is more efficient and has a smaller footprint like the Amiga. Even better may be VxWorks which I believe is more efficient and flexible than QNX.

https://blogs.windriver.com/wind_river_blog/2019/06/vxworks-a-long-love-story-with-multi-core/

All that work and flexibility to support AMP, uAMP, sAMP, SMP and BMP for embedded use yet they don't have a standard hardware platform and can't match some of the desktop features of the AmigaOS. I'm not saying a partnership or license like was planned for QNX would be better than developing organic multi-core support but the flexible features and API would be worth studying if not.

I don't think we will ever see SMP running reliably on PPC where multi-core SMP is too incompatible with single core multitasking due to the weak memory consistency model and non-atomic memory model (ARMv8 switched to atomic leaving POWER as the last major architecture using it). I believe the only chance to have SMP working with the majority of existing Amiga software is with custom 68k hardware where all committed writes are immediately available to all cores for reads and where instructions which are atomic on one core (like read-modify-write) are atomic for all cores (essentially making them like locked instructions but with minimal performance degradation unless they refer to the same address). While there may be some performance degradation, I believe it would be tolerable and result in an easier to program and more stable computer. While locked to custom hardware, this is an advantage for driver development. Other OSs would still run on the custom hardware and perhaps more reliably as some difficult to find software bugs would disappear.

The following link is a newer paper suggesting a more sane sequential and cohesive memory model can be easier to use and have good performance which is tested in a RISC-V processor.

Constructing and Evaluating Weak Memory Models
https://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/122690/1124763012-MIT.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

I mentioned an older paper in another thread which suggested the same:

https://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=44314&forum=27&start=20&viewmode=flat&order=0#845489

The following paper attempts to describe the chaotic behavior of the POWER/PPC weak/relaxed memory model.

A Tutorial Introduction to the ARM and POWER Relaxed Memory Models
https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~pes20/ppc-supplemental/test7.pdf

C11 gives us a C interface to simplify compiler use of such chaotic behavior.

https://en.cppreference.com/w/c/atomic/memory_order

Multicore support without PPC assembler to mess up finally. How many programmers think they can use these C11 memory_order specifications properly?

Last edited by matthey on 27-Oct-2021 at 07:25 AM.
Last edited by matthey on 27-Oct-2021 at 06:46 AM.

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ppcamiga1 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 27-Oct-2021 7:09:25
#126 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 437
From: Unknown

Apple switch to unix on ppc and nobody has problem with it.
Switch to unix is necessary to made Amiga fast and modern again.

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Birbo 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 27-Oct-2021 10:33:05
#127 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Apr-2007
Posts: 592
From: Zurich, Switzerland

@ppcamiga1

First of all: One of the many "Amiga" operating systems must be in the hands of developers who follow a clear roadmap for a future processor family that is not PPC (since PPC has died).

For example:

- ApolloOS: further development for 68k (Apollo Core 68080)
- MorphOS: further development for AMD64 (please correct me if I'm wrong here)
- AROS x86: Further development for x86

What is still in active development?

If you want to develop something based on UNIX - go ahead. Why not?

_________________
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michalsc 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 27-Oct-2021 11:53:11
#128 ]
AROS Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jun-2005
Posts: 319
From: Germany

@Birbo

Quote:
AROS x86: Further development for x86


x86_64 please :)

Quote:
If you want to develop something based on UNIX - go ahead. Why not?


ppcamiga1 is not that kind of guy. He is not for doing something, but rather criticizing and dictating others what they have to do.

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IridiumFX 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 27-Oct-2021 12:56:58
#129 ]
Member
Joined: 7-Apr-2017
Posts: 78
From: London, UK

@ne_one

Literally, the definition of what is the Amiga is on Page 1 of the Amiga Hardware Reference Manual, in case anyone on this board ever opened that book.

Spoiler alert:
No custom chips = no Amiga

Does not matter what CPU you call into the picture. Commodore/MOS Tech did not provide the CPU for it.

Do we want to understand or not that any AmigaOne out there is a Draco clone, rather than an evolution of the Amiga ?

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amigang 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 27-Oct-2021 13:41:34
#130 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2005
Posts: 1850
From: Cheshire, England

@IridiumFX
Quote:
Literally, the definition of what is the Amiga is on Page 1 of the Amiga Hardware Reference Manual, in case anyone on this board ever opened that book. Spoiler alert: No custom chips = no Amiga


Well I think the definition and what people feel is and isnt Amiga should move on from just custom chip = no Amiga.

Amiga to me now means, fun community and a simpler classic way of doing things.

_________________
AmigaNG, YouTube, LeaveReality Studio

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QBit 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 27-Oct-2021 15:14:07
#131 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Jun-2018
Posts: 208
From: Unknown

@all

I vote for pancakes!

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bison 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 27-Oct-2021 15:23:52
#132 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 2088
From: N-Space

@amigang

Quote:
Well I think the definition and what people feel is and isnt Amiga should move on from just custom chip = no Amiga.

AmigaOne already has. A Radeon GPU is a co-processor, but it's not a custom chip.

Quote:
Amiga to me now means, fun community and a simpler classic way of doing things.

Yes.

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"Unix is supposed to fix that." -- Jay Miner

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bison 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 27-Oct-2021 15:29:05
#133 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 2088
From: N-Space

@QBit

Quote:
I vote for pancakes!

Go ahead.

Is an Amiga without custom chips a real Amiga?

_________________
"Unix is supposed to fix that." -- Jay Miner

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michalsc 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 27-Oct-2021 15:34:16
#134 ]
AROS Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jun-2005
Posts: 319
From: Germany

@bison

Quote:
AmigaOne already has. A Radeon GPU is a co-processor, but it's not a custom chip.


Modern PCs consist of dozen of processors and co-processors, many/most of them offloading CPU by doing bus master transfers by themself :)

That means, modern PCs are Amigas! ;)

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ppcamiga1 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 28-Oct-2021 9:31:33
#135 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 437
From: Unknown

@IridiumFX

I don't give two farts for custom chips since I buy a1200.
Even in 1200 times they were to slow.

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ppcamiga1 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 28-Oct-2021 9:35:12
#136 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 437
From: Unknown

@Birbo

If You want people to use Amiga Os like on x86 it is your duty to provide somethnig that will be not a shit compared to win/lnx/osx.
Which means memory protection, multicore support, drivers, unix compatibility.
Stop this crap "PPC has died" and start working on something usable on x86.

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Birbo 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 28-Oct-2021 10:03:16
#137 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Apr-2007
Posts: 592
From: Zurich, Switzerland

@ppcamiga1

Well. I use Windows 10 and Mac OS X on x86, and I'm happy with it.

So, what is your point?

_________________
Sometimes we give people a lot of credit just because they’re writing nice sentences even if it isn’t adding up to much.

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michalsc 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 28-Oct-2021 10:10:06
#138 ]
AROS Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jun-2005
Posts: 319
From: Germany

@Birbo

His point is and was always the same - trolling. Because of that he is ignored by large majority of users of of Polish amiga forums. Now he is gaining some audience here.

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Birbo 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 28-Oct-2021 10:27:32
#139 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Apr-2007
Posts: 592
From: Zurich, Switzerland

@michalsc

Each of us likes the Amiga because of various points and defines for himself what an Amiga is.

But if we want to look forward, we also have to start with the basics. And that is in the case of computers: Which processor family do you want to rely on in the future development (of more or less anything).

There is the question with AmigaOS 4 or MorphOS. After that, you can take the next steps.

Or am I completely wrong?

_________________
Sometimes we give people a lot of credit just because they’re writing nice sentences even if it isn’t adding up to much.

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OlafS25 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 28-Oct-2021 12:13:11
#140 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6092
From: Unknown

@michalsc

for me the modern concepts in pc are the ideas of amiga going further. A graphic card finally is nothing else than the amiga chipset on steroid ;) the idea is the same. Tasks are done independently by subsystems and not needing the main processor

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