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      /  What would you accept (wish or dream of) as next Amiga?
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Poll : Continue to build new PPC hardware?
Become a retro platform with Raspberry Pi or other hardware?
Port to x86 or ARM and get a new mobo etc.
Switch to unix/linux core asap and build great Amiga like experience and call it AmigaX?
 
PosterThread
kolla 
Re: What would you accept (wish or dream of) as next Amiga?
Posted on 29-Nov-2021 11:46:26
#101 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 2859
From: Trondheim, Norway

@ppcamiga1

Quote:

It was made almost 25 years ago. in 1997 it was ok.
repeating this today with arm is extremely stupid.

More like extremely CHEAP! And FUN!

That it pisses you off is just a bonus.

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KimmoK 
Re: What would you accept (wish or dream of) as next Amiga?
Posted on 29-Nov-2021 14:16:31
#102 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5211
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

"What would you accept (wish or dream of) as next Amiga?"

System that works like my A4k did, but faster and with a few new features.

(my SAM is slightly limited and buggy, my MorphMini is old but ~ok)

Rpi4 with 8GB might be all I need, if 3D etc can be supported to make it fast on AmigaLikeOS5.
But I would love to see also a higher end system as well with a few PCIe slots.

We need more tools for developers, like Python3.

(I would be very happy with AOS5 that looks and behaves like AmigaOS + has memoryprotection +64bit + multicoresupport for new apps and sandbox for old apps. Too much time & effort go to drug/tweak old AOS to have those new capabilities. And I would not have any problem if there is a "rabbithole" for mainstream apps.)

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ppcamiga1 
Re: What would you accept (wish or dream of) as next Amiga?
Posted on 29-Nov-2021 15:43:27
#103 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 762
From: Unknown

@kolla

It is cheap crap. Making software for x86/arm is boring.
It will be something like this -> emulator detected please use android.

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matthey 
Re: What would you accept (wish or dream of) as next Amiga?
Posted on 29-Nov-2021 19:27:01
#104 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1968
From: Kansas

ppcamiga1 Quote:

It was made almost 25 years ago. in 1997 it was ok.
repeating this today with arm is extremely stupid.


kolla Quote:

More like extremely CHEAP! And FUN!


Is cheap and poor ARM fun?

1994 68060 >1.52 DMIPS/MHz
1997 SA-110 StrongARM 1.12 DMIPS/MHz

DEC ARM was cheap embedded hardware so it wouldn't compete with the desktop DEC Alpha. Motorola wouldn't let the now embedded 68k hardware compete with the desktop PPC architecture either despite the 8 stage 68060 being a better candidate to clock up than all the shallow pipeline RISC processors and early shallow pipeline Pentium processors. The 68060 was better than ARM for embedded use too as it has better DMIPS/MHz so it doesn't need to be clocked up as far to be competitive, it is a better cache and memory miser and it is one of the easiest to program in assembler of any CPU ever made. The 68060 is more my idea of fun than cheap and poor ARM but unfortunately Motorola wouldn't even let it compete with StrongARM in the mid '90s. A 68060@150MHz would have been higher performance than a StrongARM SA-110 at 200MHz 25 years ago and the 8 stage 68060 should have been easier to clock up than the 5 stage StrongARM SA-110 CPU RISC pipeline.

Last edited by matthey on 29-Nov-2021 at 07:27 PM.

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Hammer 
Re: What would you accept (wish or dream of) as next Amiga?
Posted on 15-Dec-2023 1:52:05
#105 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5246
From: Australia

@ppcamiga1

Quote:

ppcamiga1 wrote:
@kolla

pistorm turns Amiga into power supply and keyboard for rpi. It is waste of time.

Without emulator software, PiStorm is just a lump of plastic and metal.

PiStorm with Emu68, the built-in audio solution is Paula. The Amiga chipset effectively turned into a south bridge role.

Last edited by Hammer on 15-Dec-2023 at 01:53 AM.

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Hammer 
Re: What would you accept (wish or dream of) as next Amiga?
Posted on 15-Dec-2023 2:27:12
#106 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5246
From: Australia

@matthey

Quote:

matthey wrote:
ppcamiga1 Quote:

It was made almost 25 years ago. in 1997 it was ok.
repeating this today with arm is extremely stupid.


kolla Quote:

More like extremely CHEAP! And FUN!


Is cheap and poor ARM fun?

1994 68060 >1.52 DMIPS/MHz
1997 SA-110 StrongARM 1.12 DMIPS/MHz

DEC ARM was cheap embedded hardware so it wouldn't compete with the desktop DEC Alpha. Motorola wouldn't let the now embedded 68k hardware compete with the desktop PPC architecture either despite the 8 stage 68060 being a better candidate to clock up than all the shallow pipeline RISC processors and early shallow pipeline Pentium processors. The 68060 was better than ARM for embedded use too as it has better DMIPS/MHz so it doesn't need to be clocked up as far to be competitive, it is a better cache and memory miser and it is one of the easiest to program in assembler of any CPU ever made. The 68060 is more my idea of fun than cheap and poor ARM but unfortunately Motorola wouldn't even let it compete with StrongARM in the mid '90s. A 68060@150MHz would have been higher performance than a StrongARM SA-110 at 200MHz 25 years ago and the 8 stage 68060 should have been easier to clock up than the 5 stage StrongARM SA-110 CPU RISC pipeline.

Real-world StrongARM SA-110 (350 nm process node) implementation reached 200 Mhz with 1W while 68060 Rev 6 (420 nm) reached about 100 Mhz overclocked.

68060 @ 150 MHz is fiction. 68060 FPU would need to be redesigned with pipelining and for a higher clock speed.

I have 68060 Rev 1 has 600 nm which is similar to Pentium "P54C" 600 nm that can reach 100 Mhz. My 68060 Rev 1 couldn't reach +70 Mhz. TF1260 can handle 100 Mhz with 68060 Rev 6.

Pentium P55C with 350 nm node can reach 233 Mhz.

Both Zen 4 and Zen 4C has the same instruction set, the same IPC with different chip size, and max clock speed.

Reaching high clock speed is part of the design not just process node improvements.


Last edited by Hammer on 15-Dec-2023 at 02:29 AM.

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cdimauro 
Re: What would you accept (wish or dream of) as next Amiga?
Posted on 15-Dec-2023 5:46:02
#107 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3621
From: Germany

@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote:
@ppcamiga1

Quote:

ppcamiga1 wrote:
@kolla

pistorm turns Amiga into power supply and keyboard for rpi. It is waste of time.

Without emulator software, PiStorm is just a lump of plastic and metal.

PiStorm with Emu68, the built-in audio solution is Paula. The Amiga chipset effectively turned into a south bridge role.

The same can be said about the PowerPCraps: without all PC technology (included emulation of 8086 for the VGA BIOS!) they are just CPU chips that can be solely used as keyrings.

Similar thing for OS4: without 68k emulation you miss:
- AREXX, IconEdit, and the narrator.device (because their port to PowerPC was never finished/done, AFAIR);
- the ENORMOUS 68k software library;

People should try to use OS4 turning completely off any kind of 68k emulation (Petunia, the internal 68k interpreter, RunInUAE) to understand how much 68k is not only important, but FUNDAMENTAL still nowadays.

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Karlos 
Re: What would you accept (wish or dream of) as next Amiga?
Posted on 15-Dec-2023 9:30:01
#108 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4394
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@cdimauro

There are a subset of PPC/NG users that don't care at all about 68k compatibility. It's ironic, really, they could just be using AROS on whatever commodity hardware they wanted.

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Wol 
Re: What would you accept (wish or dream of) as next Amiga?
Posted on 15-Dec-2023 10:42:13
#109 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 1003
From: UK.......Sol 3.


Just port to Raptor and be done with it......

Wol.


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MagicSN 
Re: What would you accept (wish or dream of) as next Amiga?
Posted on 15-Dec-2023 10:56:37
#110 ]
Hyperion
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 666
From: Unknown

I personally find the choices in this survey not really good.

- Option 1 lists ARM (Raspberry Pi) in connection with Retro. I am not interested in "only retro"
- Option 2 lists port to ARM *or* x86. This should be independent choices in the survey. I might be
interested in one, but not in the other.
- Option 3 lists switching to other OS. While I use other OS, if I use other OS it will be Windows/Linux without any connection to Amiga. When I use Amiga it will be "real Amiga" not something faking it. I am not interested in a Fake-Amiga thing. Either the real thing or the real other thing.

What I could imagine:

- ARM, but not as a pure retro platform (and not in an option also connected to x86). No matter if standalone or based on PiStorm (but standalone would be better, even if it loses compatibility to old 68k games)
- PowerPC/POWER as long as a good hardware and halfways payable platform is available
- an ASIC 68080 based system with PCI Slots (real 3D Card instead of Maggie), I think with a "real clock frequency" this could be really interesting

I even might be interested in all three of them. I still have QEmu installed (so also x86) but it is not the system I would "dream of" - as it is worded in the survey - so I cannot click option 2, as this option includes x86.

As to my "Amiga dream" it is definitely centered (depending on CPU platform) on either OS4 or OS 3.2.

As to the actual options it would need:

- ARM: A possibility to run ARM-native code (similar to WarpOS, just this time with ARM instead of PowerPC), a possibility to use 3D Acceleration (though I guess with a possibility to ARM-native code Wazp3D might be fast enough )
- PowerPC: A perspective "beyond x5000 and A1222"
- 68080: An ASIC implementation and possibility to add a PCI Graphics Board (yes, Maggie is impressive, but also limited - Warp3DNova will never run on it)

As I said several times, currently I think PowerPC is still the strongest option.

And the options in this survey - all of them are not entirely to my liking (option 2 is closest, but it adds x86 in which I am not too interested, for me Amiga future lies in PowerPC or ARM or updated 68k, not x86)

So basically none of the options in the survey

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liquidbit 
Re: What would you accept (wish or dream of) as next Amiga?
Posted on 15-Dec-2023 14:00:09
#111 ]
Member
Joined: 9-Dec-2004
Posts: 38
From: Unknown

Amiga learned me that anything is possible and never stop dreaming,

so I dream a new Amiga based OS that would run natively on the latest NVidia/AMD GPU cards without the need of a CPU.

It would render 3D Graphics 10x better than Vulkan and DirectX,
and the Unreal engine would hide under the shadow of this new OS, which would multiply the rendering speeds of the open-source Blender too.

Game Dev houses will be thrilled and they would rather make games with the new AmigaXOS than use any middle-man engine because the 2nd big advantage of the AmigaXOS will be its simple programming GUI environment that no UT5 or Unity will be needed for their games.

All programming languages will be supported, but users will rather use the innovative AmigaXOS shell scripting for their code.

After this evolution, hardware will arrive and the other big GPU companies will pay for licenses to support the new OS.

Let me dreaming folks, let me dream...

Because Santa Clause still exists in our dreams.

Last edited by liquidbit on 15-Dec-2023 at 02:19 PM.

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Matt3k 
Re: What would you accept (wish or dream of) as next Amiga?
Posted on 15-Dec-2023 14:35:12
#112 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 28-Feb-2004
Posts: 207
From: NY

The next Amiga is already among us and working great. No need for pipe dreams...

My checklist already realized:
- Super easy install where entire OS, browser, email, work environment, install from the OS install disk in under 5 minutes and just work.
- Modern and up to date browser and email that auto update to the latest version after main install.
- SMB 2/3 shares just appear on the desktop automatically and take just a few clicks to Map.
- Solid business applications to do work. Like really good native CRM and DTP.
- Cheap and decently powered hardware that is very readily available.
- Dual monitor native support that can redirect with a click of a button and that screen savers already understand and use accordingly all with one dual head video card.
- Software and OS to be constantly updated and improved.
- MUI integration into the OS.
- Good JIT 68 support.
- Active development and support back to end users.
- Lastly the best possible performing hardware (and why not be less that $500 USD to make this Christmas wish over the top).


Merry Christmas and enjoy this reality list this holiday season!

Last edited by Matt3k on 16-Dec-2023 at 09:30 PM.
Last edited by Matt3k on 16-Dec-2023 at 09:29 PM.
Last edited by Matt3k on 16-Dec-2023 at 02:45 PM.
Last edited by Matt3k on 15-Dec-2023 at 03:18 PM.
Last edited by Matt3k on 15-Dec-2023 at 03:09 PM.
Last edited by Matt3k on 15-Dec-2023 at 03:06 PM.
Last edited by Matt3k on 15-Dec-2023 at 03:05 PM.
Last edited by Matt3k on 15-Dec-2023 at 02:52 PM.
Last edited by Matt3k on 15-Dec-2023 at 02:51 PM.
Last edited by Matt3k on 15-Dec-2023 at 02:44 PM.
Last edited by Matt3k on 15-Dec-2023 at 02:42 PM.

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pixie 
Re: What would you accept (wish or dream of) as next Amiga?
Posted on 15-Dec-2023 14:44:21
#113 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 3115
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@MagicSN

Quote:
ARM: A possibility to run ARM-native code (similar to WarpOS, just this time with ARM instead of PowerPC), a possibility to use 3D Acceleration (though I guess with a possibility to ARM-native code Wazp3D might be fast enough )

Wouldn't it be more interesting to tap into the GFX chip instead?
Raspberry Pi4b to get OpenGL ES 3.1.

Last edited by pixie on 15-Dec-2023 at 05:54 PM.

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MagicSN 
Re: What would you accept (wish or dream of) as next Amiga?
Posted on 15-Dec-2023 16:18:59
#114 ]
Hyperion
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 666
From: Unknown

@pixie

I was told by the people doing the work on PiStorm
that accessing this from Amiga side would be a very
big problem (i suspect few 68k 3dhw titles also play
a role, giving it lower priority).

Well maybe it will get higher priority once h2 68k
comes out?

I think there is currently an experiment of using two
Pi‘s at once, one doing the 68k and one doing the
Gl in software (i think it is in sw!!! Not sure) - but obviously this is not really end user capable.

Btw the title link is wrong (in the linked article it is
correct though) it is opengles 3.x not opengl 3.x.

OpenGLES would be cool though, for os4 i have
all renderers for my games for OpenGLES, could
get backported to 68k if 68k supported OpenGLES…

Steffen

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pixie 
Re: What would you accept (wish or dream of) as next Amiga?
Posted on 15-Dec-2023 17:55:37
#115 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 3115
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@MagicSN

It was done on cell phone, corners where cut! xD

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OneTimer1 
Re: What would you accept (wish or dream of) as next Amiga?
Posted on 15-Dec-2023 18:31:00
#116 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 3-Aug-2015
Posts: 962
From: Unknown

@Hondo

(answering to this old thread after all this years)

'The Amiga' is a combination of hard- and software it can't be ported.


It can be emulated (UAE), the hardware can be re-engineered (Minimig, Vampire) maybe the OS can be ported or re-programed and enhanced or simulated on a host system.

But as long as the 'Amigans' don't even know what they do prefer, they should support as much of it as possible. The hardware of re-engineered or simulated systems will always lack behind actual systems but the OS itself is not much better, it has flaws that could only be overcome if you change the principles it was build on.

So chose wisely between retro oriented hardware, retro software or a switch to something new, that might have an emulator for the old stuff.

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kolla 
Re: What would you accept (wish or dream of) as next Amiga?
Posted on 15-Dec-2023 20:49:54
#117 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 2859
From: Trondheim, Norway

@matthey

Quote:

kolla Quote:

More like extremely CHEAP! And FUN!

Is cheap and poor ARM fun?


Considering all the cheap and sometimes poor performing ARM devices I have accumulated over the years, the answer is obviously YES!!

Quote:

1994 68060 >1.52 DMIPS/MHz
1997 SA-110 StrongARM 1.12 DMIPS/MHz


Yesh, got a few StrongARM devices, and unlike any 060 I know of, they run off batteries.

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kolla 
Re: What would you accept (wish or dream of) as next Amiga?
Posted on 15-Dec-2023 21:01:15
#118 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 2859
From: Trondheim, Norway

For OS4, amongst all the nonsense bloat, there’s also a seriously outdated and buggy Roadshow stack, that for whatever reason is never updated anymore. Also there’s a borderline useless USB stack that seriously needs some more work.

But all "most people" care about is silly 3D graphics to compete with 10+ year old smartphones.

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matthey 
Re: What would you accept (wish or dream of) as next Amiga?
Posted on 15-Dec-2023 22:23:47
#119 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1968
From: Kansas

MagicSN Quote:

What I could imagine:

- ARM, but not as a pure retro platform (and not in an option also connected to x86). No matter if standalone or based on PiStorm (but standalone would be better, even if it loses compatibility to old 68k games)
- PowerPC/POWER as long as a good hardware and halfways payable platform is available
- an ASIC 68080 based system with PCI Slots (real 3D Card instead of Maggie), I think with a "real clock frequency" this could be really interesting


While a quick ASIC conversion of the AC68080/SAGA SoC with PCI added could likely be created for less than $1 million USD and achieve several to many times the FPGA clock rate, I doubt that it would be well received outside of the 68k retro market. I expect it would be worthwhile to create a more professional SoC with more optimized CPU cores for an ASIC and using PCIe. At the very least, the AC68080 caches should be redesigned for an ASIC but there are other areas that were optimized for a FPGA including the ISA. There are other 68k core options which should be considered besides the AC68080 as well. A professional 68k SoC ASIC would likely cost USD millions but it is better to build on something professional and it could be marketed outside the retro market. There is a shortage of big endian hardware choices outside of the Amiga market too.

Shumpei Kawasaki Quote:

99 percent of PC, mobile and data center applications are little-endian but it is also true that 90 percent industrial and infrastructure applications are big-endian. ARM users actively use its big-endian mode and will continue to do so.

...

Japan used to ship 80% of "embedded systems." Now down to 20% or less. Japan's infrastructure code like automatic train control (ATC) for bullet trains, municipal trains, control code for nuclear power plants, and the JR's railroad network system predating ethernet. These code is 100% big-endian. Porting over the legacy code to RISC-V will require due due due dilig.


Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton Quote:

and that's really what this is about : three *entire countries* -
india, china and japan - have an industrial base that's completely
trapped (like a quantum tunnel electron). whilst europe and the U.S.
have accelerated away from big-endian years ago these countries have
been left behind.

...

there's also a mission-critical scenario in india (nuclear reactors
running VMEbus 68020 systems) where despite the code being very small
they absolutely will not rewrite it, period, due to it being a
compound-change (change in code, change in hardware) and that is
absolutely impossible to safely validate.


https://groups.google.com/a/groups.riscv.org/g/isa-dev/c/9tg4gGg8w-c/m/ADy-5lrHAgAJ

The 68k, ColdFire, PPC and SuperH were mostly big endian. ColdFire is practically a subset of the 68k so it is easy to gain some of that market and SuperH was a more RISC like copy of the 68000 that just happens to use microcode like the 68000 despite the RISC philosophy of eliminating it. There is the open hardware J-core (SuperH) project in Japan which makes a little more sense in light of the many decades of big endian embedded use by these ISAs.

One of the best options to accelerate development toward a modern SoC is SiFive IP. It looks like SiFive has reasonable licensing terms and already has most of the SoC that would be needed already developed, verified and product tested. They have IP for at least up to (LP)DDR5, PCIe x16 Gen 3, 1/10GbE, M.2 for SSD/WiFi/Bluetooth, etc. Their SoCs are practical minimalist designs much of which could be used as is (the SoC chips strangely don't seem to be on the commodity market like JH7110 which should cost only a few USDs). They designed their own boards with the SoCs which are also practical.

https://www.sifive.com/boards/hifive-unmatched-revb
https://www.sifive.com/boards/hifive-pro-p550

The HiFive Unmatched is already discontinued likely due to the relatively limited performance with high price at $665 USD and lack of mature RISC-V software support limiting the market.

https://www.crowdsupply.com/sifive/hifive-unmatched

SiFive is trying to design an OoO RISC-V core with enough performance to compete at that price which is in the HiFive Pro P550 board. They have to play catch up with ARM and x86-64 which are already entrenched and have fast development cycle. It may be folly to chase this market before RISC-V matures more. RISC-V is a weak performance ISA which best targets low end embedded use but there isn't much margin down there. SiFive cofounded StarFive for the low end of the market and used an integrated Imagination Technologies GPU in the VisionFive 2.

https://www.amazon.com/VisionFive-RISC-V-StarFive-JH7110-Quad-core/dp/B0BGM6STN8

At $89.99 USD with 8GiB memory SBC, this is now a competitive product. This SBC and the $665 USD board with PCIe have similar in-order SiFive U74 CPU cores. This U74 CPU core is a very good design using a fraction of the transistors of OoO cores yet has 2.6 DMIPS/MHz (PPC G5 is 2.9 DMIPS/MHz for reference but the U74 core beat the G5 in 7-zip benchmarks/MHz). Still, the U74 core lacks performance for an expensive desktop SBC. An integrated GPU may allow to provide big endian support for Amiga purposes. As cool as it is to put a desktop class GPU in a SBC, it is more important to keep the cost down. A 68k Amiga SBC with similar performance, features and cost like the VisionFive SBC should easily outsell THEA500 Mini and actually expand the Amiga user base.

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Karlos 
Re: What would you accept (wish or dream of) as next Amiga?
Posted on 16-Dec-2023 0:24:30
#120 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4394
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@matthey

Quote:
While a quick ASIC conversion of the AC68080/SAGA SoC with PCI added could likely be created for less than $1 million USD




Is that with or without a dedicated swizzle unit?

Last edited by Karlos on 16-Dec-2023 at 12:29 AM.

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