@bison

America is slow to adopt better technology sometimes. Look how slow the electric car rollout is in the USA. And that’s technology that will save human lives and the Earth. When I bought my first Amiga 500 in 1988 I was shocked how ignorant the American public was about the Amiga technology.

Last edited by DiscreetFX on 18-Dec-2021 at 08:22 PM.

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@ppcamiga1

Developer stated AGA machine is not required.

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@OlafS25

Quote:

For them better hardware is not really interesting because it is no challenge and the games woudl be directly competing with mainstream platforms. The attitude between demo developers is similar. From this view I fear most developers would be not interested in a new platform many people here dream of.

Many newer amiga demos are made on PC on demo makers “Rocket”, some people making demos don’t have Amiga systems. Pretty crazy… but if you think about it, Amiga was slow, and also when making demos on system that crash a lot, having to reopen projects when system crash, can be boring and slow.

so "rocket" sets up a frame buffer does c2p, and so on, so end of the day modern demos are chunky 256 colors.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1lVS4tW33g

So the argument is void an null, they already treating the Amiga as PC, doing it on a PC

Personally, I set the CD in shell-startup, so brings me back quickly if get crash, the OS reboot quickly.

Typically get system freeze in bitmap locks, it seams locks are not per bitmap, its more global, (maybe they are redoing the same mistakes with forbid / permit, making global locks, maybe good idea for one core for cache efficiency, but not for multicore.).

I have rs232 hocked up, useful for any developer, find bugs and dump debug info. (All beta testers should have one, I think.)

Now modern games are true color graphic with alpha channel, or with chroma keying. Often 3d accelerated, and that also goes for 2d games. So when game is no long made specifically for Amiga, but more multiplatform Linux, Mac, Windows, etc, you can need the same eco system. There is no competition, because it’s the same thing.

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@DiscreetFX

But it need 2 MB chip which means AGA or heavy modifications of Amiga 500.
This game is still not worth it.

@NutsAboutAmiga

Yes almost all demos for aga 256 chunky color demos and use aga only as dumb framebuffer.
Everything is done by cpu.

DiscreetFX Quote:

America is slow to adopt better technology sometimes. Look how slow the electric car rollout is in the USA. And that’s technology that will save human lives and the Earth. When I bought my first Amiga 500 in 1988 I was shocked how ignorant the American public was about the Amiga technology.

Gasoline cars have...

o better energy/weight
o better energy/volume
o lower cost (especially if considering subsidies)
o more range (convenience)
o standard and fast refueling stations (convenience)

Why Gas Engines Are Far From Dead - Biggest EV Problems
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hatav_Rdnno

Electric cars are improving but so are gasoline cars. Let them compete instead of subsidizing the superior technology out of existence because of bad science, hype and hysteria. It does no good to shut down traditional energy sources and ridicule domestic energy producers only to beg OPEC to produce more energy. It does no good to shut down domestic coal plants with advanced scrubbers only to export coal to countries with lower environmental standards. There are things we can do to help electric cars here like standardizing charging standards. The last thing we need are supply and demand mandates and controls which socialists have turned into economic disasters.

The Amiga technology was very good when it came out but it was different and didn't adapt. The Amiga standard included good CPU, graphics, sound and I/O capabilities but it didn't improve much from there. More powerful CPUs, hard drives, more memory and expandibility were important to the Amiga even though it often needed them less than the competition. The Amiga could have even been the green technology of computers if CBM had advanced it with a more integrated CMOS chipset and using 68k cores which were lower power than x86 cores. Small computers could have been fanless before competitors and the Amiga could have found more use in embedded, console and mobile devices. There was no reason to give up the markets to ARM which needed higher clock rates and more memory consuming more energy (ARM cores are at their best when sleeping).

Last edited by matthey on 18-Dec-2021 at 10:17 PM.

So there a few on here who keep saying just enjoy what we got and don’t worry about tomorrow, I do agree, this year I’ve particularly enjoyed Amikit xe on the pi, it was so good it got me back to writing new program in Hollywood, AmiLion. It was also the first time in years that I looked into how mui programs are made again, and it gave me new hope that maybe I could use an Amiga platform more in the future thanks to rabbit hole. yes it’s a cheat, yes it just loading linux programs on top of a emulated environment but to see the chrome icon on an Amiga desktop that I can just click on and be taken into the full modern web browser is something I thought I’d never be able to do on an Amiga.

But I’m still interested in Amiga next chapter where will it lead to

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@DiscreetFX

Quote:

Look how slow the electric car rollout is in the USA.

It's been slow because demand has been low. Anyone who wants an electric car and can afford one can get one. Caveat: the current supply chain situation notwithstanding.

I don't think a lot of electric cars are viable anyway, not unless the U.S. gets over its fear of nuclear power.

Last edited by bison on 18-Dec-2021 at 11:11 PM.

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@OlafS25

Quote:

I discussed on a german forum with well-known amiga game developers ... would [they] be happy about new better hardware like vampire or PiStorm compared to classic A500 and A1200?

Quote:

For them better hardware is not really interesting because it is no challenge and the games woudl be directly competing with mainstream platforms.

What?!?
First off, thanks for this anecdotal evidence.
Second, if indeed somehow this group of game developers is representative of however many remaining game developers for 68k Amigas there are, then their response is the lamest excuse ever.

Developing a game for the Vampire 68080 + SAGA would still be an immense challenge, when compared to game development on mainstream platforms. Unless I'm mistaken and someone has actually ported the Unity Engine or Unreal Engine to 080/SAGA.

And how exactly would a game running on a Vampire or PiStorm directly compete with mainstream platforms? Can Vampire/PiStorm run games like: Doom Eternal, Forza Horison 5? or indie mainstream titles: Disco Elysium, Fall Guys, Untitled Goose Game?

And what is wrong with competing with other popular FPS, racing, platform, puzzle games?
What, an Amiga 68k gamer would say "These games have too many colours and textures, I might as well just go turn on my gaming PC or game console?

You said you were surprised by their response. I'd like to think that your surprise was because of how illogical their response was, or perhaps how ill informed they were about advancements in hardware/software emulation, or that they have no interest in learning anything new and just want to live within their comfort zone.

I certainly hope that these developers are in the minority, otherwise the situation for Amiga is worse than I expected.

Last edited by agami on 19-Dec-2021 at 02:03 AM.
Last edited by agami on 19-Dec-2021 at 02:03 AM.

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@agami

I'm not surprised. Not really.

Thirty years ago programming was mostly about finding clever ways of doing things with limited resources. Nowadays it too often comes down to tracking down problems somewhere in the software stack by reading posts on stackoverflow. There's a skill in that, but not much joy.

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agami Quote:

What?!? First off, thanks for this anecdotal evidence. Second, if indeed somehow this group of game developers is representative of however many remaining game developers for 68k Amigas there are, then their response is the lamest excuse ever. agami [quote] There is a hardcore group of nostalgic Amiga users who will always prefer the original "authentic" Amiga hardware. That is their fun retro computer and their comfort zone. While these people may be a sizable percentage of the remaining Amiga users because of their stalwartness, I do not believe they are a large percentage of the potential and returning Amiga users who want a more modern Amiga although with more compatibility than with current AmigaOne PPC hardware. The hardcore group would likely still use new Amiga hardware which pays homage to the original hardware if it was good enough and affordable but may still choose to develop for the original Amiga. They may even use new Amiga hardware to develop software for the classic Amiga hardware. As stubborn as they sound, I still consider them potential customers of new Amiga hardware and Amiga assets. agami [quote] Developing a game for the Vampire 68080 + SAGA would still be an immense challenge, when compared to game development on mainstream platforms. Unless I'm mistaken and someone has actually ported the Unity Engine or Unreal Engine to 080/SAGA.

Part of the problem was that Gunnar dictated the new hardware standards instead of working with developers. When the AMD64 (x86-64) ISA and ABI were developed, developer input was requested, especially from compiler writers, and changes were made. I recall when Gunnar asked for input on the Natami forum only to overrule the majority opinion. His arrogance and eccentricism has alienated an important part of the Amiga developer community.

agami Quote:

And how exactly would a game running on a Vampire or PiStorm directly compete with mainstream platforms? Can Vampire/PiStorm run games like: Doom Eternal, Forza Horison 5? or indie mainstream titles: Disco Elysium, Fall Guys, Untitled Goose Game? And what is wrong with competing with other popular FPS, racing, platform, puzzle games? What, an Amiga 68k gamer would say "These games have too many colours and textures, I might as well just go turn on my gaming PC or game console?

A big part of the problem is that FPGA and emulation are not considered a target platform for developer tools. Create hardware using a documented ISA and ABI that is popular enough and compilers will start to support it. This is not true of FPGA and emulated platforms which can and usually do change. People have asked Toni Wilen to support emulation of Vampire hardware and he has declined because it is an evolving platform. It may be unfair considering modern CPUs have FPGA like microcode which can be updated. I'm surprised that CPU design has not moved more in the direction of using an eFPGA with more field programmable blocks for flexibility. There were also software code morphing front ends for VLIW architectures which received proper and often difficult developer tool support. If the Apollo core supported creating an ASIC as many FPGA cores do, then the creation of ASICs where timings could be measured would greatly increase the chances of developer support. Optimizing for and planning for only an FPGA core is bizarre.

agami Quote:

You said you were surprised by their response. I'd like to think that your surprise was because of how illogical their response was, or perhaps how ill informed they were about advancements in hardware/software emulation, or that they have no interest in learning anything new and just want to live within their comfort zone. I certainly hope that these developers are in the minority, otherwise the situation for Amiga is worse than I expected.

Most of the Amiga users who are left are stubborn and eccentric which makes it difficult to work together. Too often other Amiga pioneers leave road blocks making it difficult for others to take the Amiga further. There are some good people remaining though. Maybe there will be another opportunity to do something with the Amiga before it is too late.

@agami

another anectod I just read from a game developer...

he delivered new levels for a game after delivering the boxed versions and got angry response by owners of boxed versions because of that

weired...

@matthey

Toni Wilen is interested in preserving the old hardware with his emulator. That not includes new platforms. So even if apollo team would do a asic I doubt he would be interested to support it. It is a emotional thing from my point of view (most in current community is "emotional" not rational).

@bison

Quote:

If all else fails, blame America!

Like South Park fans everywhere we've been conditioned to blame Canada but in the USA it seems that marketing and following the herd counts double for consumers! The Amiga software (admittedly mostly European coders) did the the Amiga proud in the 'peak Amiga' 1991-1996 years and the Americans ignored it because of the CPU speed of dull PC boxes with spreadsheet and CAD software. Fair enough Doom in 1993 and C&C (1995) were killer apps but the platform was a joke in 1992 for home use and the US didn't care because they didn't consider the superior Amiga platform superior unless you were talking about the raw hardware ability of a 1985 Amiga 1000 or 1987 Amiga 500/2000 neither of which they bought in any significant numbers either! Trust Big Blue, trust the market and ignore something that seems to good to be true or seems over engineered for the task seems to be the order of the day! Talk about looking a gift horse in the mouth!

Last edited by BigD on 19-Dec-2021 at 08:29 PM.
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