@NutsAboutAmiga

a brand is registrated for a certain time and has to be reregistrated then to not being lost.

Copyright cannot vanish as far as I know, f.e. if you make a photo it is yours and stays that for unlimited time. The same is certainly true for your source codes. What of course could end are licenses but that depends on the contracts.

@cdimauro

Quote:

I personally don't miss at all assembly languages, and nowadays I'm a super happy Python coder. And that's because the only thing which I'm interesting in is solving my problems as fast as possible, since time is the only thing which cannot bought in the market. In fact, I also write assemblers, emulators, etc. in Python. I know that they are superslow (1 / 100 compared to C or something like that), but I/we have enough computing power to make their execution acceptable. So, I invite you to exit from your cave and discover how the world became. And better enjoy the remaining time that you have.

On the contrary, I rather like the discipline and freedom of assembly language, but I regard it in the same way that people regard classic cars; a niche hobby that has little practical purpose and serves only to keep some nostalgic aspect of the past alive.

However, to indulge that hobby, I've built my own tooling and as you've seen, I've used whatever lets me get the job done quickest. Although the thought of porting MC64K's assembler to MC64K assembly does amuse me.

_________________
Doing stupid things for fun...

@kolla

Quote:

Maybe someone should port OS3.1 to PowerPC.

I thought they had. Isn't that OS4?

@Hypex

It's like we've come full circle...

_________________
Doing stupid things for fun...

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

Big diffence in speed between Netsurf and Odyssey, not sure why that is, Is just, simpler JS, or also something to do with the rendering engine, can be idea profile web browser and see there some small issues, that is slowing it down.

I don't get to test NetSurf much as I always find it breaks on some site. A blank page gives no clue what is going on. The last time I used NetSurf was when I installed it on A1 Linux recently. Fox was too slow and then crashes. NetSurf worked better on Linux!

Quote:

I don’t really use the web browser a lot, its kind of memory hungry, and the web browser on the PC has lot more 2d acceleration.

I tend to open it first thing. I've always git things I want to look up. Tend to have ten saved tabs as any one time.

@BigD

Quote:

A-EON have not renewed the OEM licensing contract with Hyperion and AmigaKit no longer stock Hyperion products. The A1222 Plus has no firm release date and Enhancer and System 54 development is the only way AmigaOS 4 will get any updates in the near future. It's not an environment conducive to a port to another ISA me thinks

But, System54 is not AmigaOS. I've got all my OS4 updates just fine without Enhancer. In fact, Enhancer complicates it, because after you run the system updater you then need run the Enhancer updater. It's kinda like needing Windows update and then another program to update Windows drivers. But you don't need to stuff around setting up accounts like on OS4. It would better if they merged OS4 and Enhancer into one OS package for the user. OS4 used to come with OEM drivers.

Remember when computing was fun? Yes! It was before AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition came to complicate our life!

@Neuf

Quote:

I have over the last three years, been following the activities of Team Core Linux.

Who is this Team Core Linux? They don't have an obvious Google presence.

Quote:

One thing I have noticed about the comments on V54 is lack of mention of the chief feature of V54. The new Graphics subsystem is the "killer app" of V54. The new Graphics Subsystem will mean a very good web browser for the system. [/quote That's interesting. They can provide Radeon drivers. But they rely on graphics.library which is core OS4 code. [quote]Hopefully, Amigakit's team will be able to deliver on this promising new OS.

Good luck. They need to recreate a Windows 95 level OS from scratch with a small team to reproduce OS4. Then they need to make sure its core components like graphics replicate the original.

They might as well do what the Stargus people did. Take some binary, stick it through a machine code to C inverter, then it's portable. Might not be humanly comprehensible with the result being a terrible mess of technically C code. But at least it's humanly editable!

@V8

Quote:

At this point there are ZERO people working on Hyperion's OS4 kernel. The Friedens or Ssolie for sure will never have anything ever to do with Hermans again. No other development happens either except for sporadic trivial bugfixes to trivial components that some unpaid enthusiast implements when they have time. But active development? No.

As it stands Trevor now has ownership of the kernel. And this goes as far as the boot loader as well. But in the last OS4 update, Update 2, a new kernel was included. I don't know what one, as I submitted a bug that was confirmed and I assumed fixed. But, updating didn't fix the bug, or it could be fixed but I can't use the kernel it as my Radeon card freezes.

Quote:

There are no native OS4 software for this. It is all ports of old versions of Linux applications. Why not run the latest version of these apps straight under Linux instead? They work better there.

What native meaning written from scratch? I wouldn't expect that! However there was lots of Amiga software for doing the same thing. But, I don't to run them on Linux as I want to run them on AmigaOS. For the same reason Amiga people in the 90's wanted to do stuff on the Amiga. They didn't to use a PC. Otherwise, I wouldn't use OS4 for anything at all, I'd just convert to Linux and forget about anything Amiga. If I want to compile something, I don't want to use a PC, I want to use OS4. If I need a PC to compile OS4 programs, then at that point, using OS4 become completely pointless to me.

Quote:

And who is going to port "the browser" to OS4 when it has switched to x86_64?

Whoever is porting the browser now. But, it would be a lot easier. It's harder now, because porting a browser requires to port a browser coded for little endian to big endian. When the endian issues are taken away it's easier to port across.

Quote:

No one, except the Friedens, have managed to port a semi-modern browser to OS4 in the last 20 years. I don't understand why there would suddenly be people with the required skills available to port it just because you switch to x86_64.

Actually, I think Odyssey is in a better state. It actually has an Amiga native UI, even if it is MUI, and is still updated. Timberwolf, OTOH, was a proof of concept. It technically worked but didn't have a real Amiga interface. It also wasn't left in the best state. It looked abandoned. The last version crashes which just looks like a poor effort.

Quote:

There is no one with the required skills around to do these of ports anymore.

Have Fabien Coeurjoly, Jörg Strohmayer, Andrea Palmate, Roman Kargin, Chris Young and other contributors disappeared from the scene?

Quote:

And if you port OS4 to x86_64 then there will be 5 or more unused cores instead. Is that progress?

Yes it is. The hardware is cheaper, powerful and importantly available. That alone makes it more practical than a CPU which is technically matched to the OS.

Also, no one would need to mess around with Linux any more. The common version would simply auto boot! Unless they managed to mess up the firmware so it didn't auto boot.

@cdimauro

Quote:

I can understand it if you have some "secret sauce", but not for just command-line tools.

Well no. For bigger stuff yeah. Initially I read something about they needed to recreate them for some 68K software so did it for both 68K and OS4.

Maybe they will back port to 68K!

Quote:

You can understand yourself how already bad is the situation, and why doesn't make sense to stick on closing the sources (as well as reinventing the wheel).

Yes the situation isn't the best. Given the work that would be needed I don't think the outcome is worth the investment. Unless it's really another OS that's inspired by AmigaOS, but like AmigaOS like how MorphOS is like AmigaOS, but can run OS4 software.

Quote:

Sys54 needs more collaboration, if it want to have some chance to survive.

It would. But even the 54 is stepping on toes. 54 is what the OS4.2 release would be at due about ten years ago.

Last edited by Hypex on 13-May-2022 at 05:41 PM.

@Hypex

Dozens of AROS developers took 20 years to reach a good reimplementation of OS 3.1 plus the necessary modernizations here and there, while Apollo team took much lesser time to strip its M68K flavour to let it properly target classic hardware.

The question is why, WHY, and again W-H-Y some one else should DO IT AGAIN AND AGAIN, just in order to keep it closed into a commercial version that will NEVER EVER recoup the time and the money needed to do a proper job. AmigaOS 4 isn't even able to pay its developers, let alone the 3.2 version that's been brought to light with volounteer efforts.

Classic retrogaming market barely lets getting some money from new games, while the so-called NG market is far smaller and just too much vertical to keep itself alive. So why are these little companies still beating the damn dead horse sooo sickly? To be able to sell another half working pricey and shamefully underpowered PPC machine in... 10 years? really?

Sorry to say that, but if you're looking for the people who killed the Amiga, well, they are exactly the ones who are struggling to 'keep it alive'. Let it go like sane dead companies did (amstrad, sinclair, commodore for the 8 bit machines...) and maybe it could flourish again as a retrogaming platform. If AmigaOS sources were published and GPLed 20 years ago, maybe today we'd already have had a modern reimplementation running anywhere.

Last edited by paolone on 12-May-2022 at 04:45 PM.

@all

Actially the World has serious Problems.. There is Disinformation World War III going on in the
Internet.. Alternative Facts.. Alternative Truths. China wants to conquer World Leadership.


The Free World is under Attack from all Sides. Dictators are coming to Power. Lies become truth
and truth is declared lies. We must face it.. the War is already going on and if we don`t take care the little freedom we have is lost! China and Russia are trying to divide all democratic
Nations.. WE MUST FIGHT back on all Fronts. Finland is going to Join the Nato. Finland never
felt like many other Countrys "We are safe now" Finland always had a great Amiga Scene and is a free Country. And Finland is not so divided as many othe Democracys are.


I know this is completely off topic. But it is some kind of Luxury discussing the "Future of
Amiga OS" a million Times over and Over again while the whole World is in a Mindfuck War in
the Internet and gives a F@ck about Amiga "Philosophy" which was using Computers in a
creative Way. Nearly half of the World decided to use Computers to CONTROL People and not
set them free like the Amiga was intended to. I`m 52 years old..... I got 20 years older than I
would have got in the Stone Age.. I have a daughter, my Son commited Suicide. He wanted to
become Doctor of Psychiatry. He was taken away from us.. I was in mental Hospital He wanted
to learn how to use AI in Psychiatry. I never had the Chance to show him Amiga Computers
and Soundtracker or Deluxe Paint. The father in Law of my Daughter uninstalled Fruity Loops Signature Edition and Renoise from the Laptop I gave her. That was so damn silly.
0 I am Desperate!
There will be a giant flood of Bullshit coming over the World.

Amiga Computers were designed to bring fun and Joy into the Computer World.
But now the whole World gives a F@ck about Amiga Computers.


World will get ill-tempered, churlish and morose soon I bet. Because World is doomed and one Reason is that Computers are not used the Amiga Way but the ill-tempered way!

Sorry this editor could do better text formatting. I just added CRs because if not this would be unreadable!

Sorry I know I am mainly Amiga Off Topic... but Amiga sadly became Off Topic to the whole World!



The Question will be: will this world be totally doomed by Assholes or will decent Civilization survive?

And the fact that nearly nobody wants Amiga and Commodore to survive makes me sad!

Last edited by QBit on 13-May-2022 at 12:59 AM.
Last edited by QBit on 13-May-2022 at 12:57 AM.

Quote:

I`m 52 years old..... I got 20 years older than I would have got in the Stone Age.. I have a daughter, my Son commited Suicide. He wanted to become Doctor of Psychiatry. He was taken away from us.. I was in mental Hospital He wanted to learn how to use AI in Psychiatry. I never had the Chance to show him Amiga Computers and Soundtracker or Deluxe Paint. The father in Law of my Daughter uninstalled Fruity Loops Signature Edition and Renoise from the Laptop I gave her. That was so damn silly. 0 I am Desperate!

Amigaworld dot net at its finest.

/mega!

_________________
I HAVE ABS OF STEEL
--
CAN YOU SEE ME? CAN YOU HEAR ME? OK FOR WORK

@MEGA_RJ_MICAL


Take care of the Penny Man the billion $ man will take care of himself!

Cemetarys are Reason! And Justifed!

(Software) Failure! Guru Meditation!

This Summer will be hot! Climate Change! This Sh*t will F@ck you up too.. not only me!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKqaGEAbqj4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcafzHL8iBQ

Last edited by QBit on 13-May-2022 at 02:40 AM.
Last edited by QBit on 13-May-2022 at 02:35 AM.
Last edited by QBit on 13-May-2022 at 02:31 AM.
Last edited by QBit on 13-May-2022 at 02:28 AM.
Last edited by QBit on 13-May-2022 at 02:26 AM.
Last edited by QBit on 13-May-2022 at 02:24 AM.
Last edited by QBit on 13-May-2022 at 02:22 AM.

@Hypex

Quote:

Hypex wrote: Compiling, rendering, video or any other CPU intensiuve works needs power. Apart from that it needs to be afordable. So the point isn't really about power. It's just that the best power is also the cheapest. The X1000 dual core CPU is wasted on OS4 but an older single core could have been more expensive to source. For the price now, they might as well target Power9, because it brings power at a price closer to what that are asking for an X5000.

In the real world, the bulk of the 3D raytraced render workload has been shifted on bounding volume hierarchy (BVH) hardware capable raster GPUs e.g. free Blender 3D, Autodesk Maya, and Arnold.

AMD Ryzen 6000 APU has an integrated BVH hardware-capable raster GPU.

Hardware-accelerated bounding volume hierarchy (BVH) can be used for collision detection and ray tracing.

I prefer GPU accelerated web browser experience, and many users weren't happy when AMD released unstable 2017-era and early 2018 GPU drivers for 1st gen mobile Ryzen APUs that resulted in BSOD with Google Chrome and Microsoft Edge Chromium.

Pure CPU focus wasn't the original Amiga's idealogy.

Last edited by Hammer on 13-May-2022 at 04:32 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 13-May-2022 at 04:25 AM.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

Quote:

Qbit wrote: I was in mental Hospital He wanted to learn how to use AI in Psychiatry. I am Desperate!

Quote:

Hammer wrote: In the real world, the bulk of the 3D raytraced render workload has been shifted on bounding volume hierarchy (BVH) hardware capable raster GPU

So, I'd say the question we truly need to ask here is

CAN WE USE BVH IN PSYCHIATRY?




Thanks,
/mega

_________________
I HAVE ABS OF STEEL
--
CAN YOU SEE ME? CAN YOU HEAR ME? OK FOR WORK

@OlafS25

Quote:

OlafS25 wrote: @cdimauro bloat (in my personal limited experience) are class libraries and dependencies that make it much easier today to develop more sophisticated applications without reinventing every wheel.

Then this isn't "bloat" by definition. Rather utilities et similar.
Quote:

So "Hello world" is 30 MB but then the growth is much slower.

This is an extreme, and usually not realistic, example.
Quote:

It is a matter of calculation... investing lots of time in a lean program or simply expecting better hardware. And even smartphones are very powerful today.

Indeed. But the primary point is that users expect & are used to sophisticated / easier applications.

So, you need frameworks & libraries for that, which provide from basic (simple UI controls, like buttons, etc.) to very advanced functionalities (an HTML widget). And this requires MUCH more resources...

@Karlos

Quote:

Karlos wrote: @cdimauro Quote: I personally don't miss at all assembly languages, and nowadays I'm a super happy Python coder. And that's because the only thing which I'm interesting in is solving my problems as fast as possible, since time is the only thing which cannot bought in the market. In fact, I also write assemblers, emulators, etc. in Python. I know that they are superslow (1 / 100 compared to C or something like that), but I/we have enough computing power to make their execution acceptable. So, I invite you to exit from your cave and discover how the world became. And better enjoy the remaining time that you have. On the contrary, I rather like the discipline and freedom of assembly language, but I regard it in the same way that people regard classic cars; a niche hobby that has little practical purpose and serves only to keep some nostalgic aspect of the past alive.

With hobbies you can spend your time how do you like. Never stated something against it.
Quote:

However, to indulge that hobby, I've built my own tooling and as you've seen, I've used whatever lets me get the job done quickest.

That's the thing. It's pointless, or even completely non-sense, thinking to write those tools in assembly language.

I did it at my Commodore Plus4/128/Amiga time, and it was very useful to form my mindset, but it's a closed experience...
Quote:

Although the thought of porting MC64K's assembler to MC64K assembly does amuse me.

The idea might be fascinating, but the limited gain (compared to even using just simple C) doesn't the deserve/justify the big effort.

@Hypex

Quote:

Hypex wrote: However there was lots of Amiga software for doing the same thing. But, I don't to run them on Linux as I want to run them on AmigaOS. For the same reason Amiga people in the 90's wanted to do stuff on the Amiga. They didn't to use a PC. Otherwise, I wouldn't use OS4 for anything at all, I'd just convert to Linux and forget about anything Amiga. If I want to compile something, I don't want to use a PC, I want to use OS4. If I need a PC to compile OS4 programs, then at that point, using OS4 become completely pointless to me.

Then what about building the compilers themselves: is it possible to do it on an OS4 machine? I mean, building GCC (LLMV is completely out of scope, of course), for example.
Quote:

Quote: And who is going to port "the browser" to OS4 when it has switched to x86_64? Whoever is porting the browser now. But, it would be a lot easier. It's harder now, because porting a browser requires to port a browser coded for little endian to big endian. When the endian issues are taken away it's easier to port across.

It's hard for whom? Because MorphOS has a modern browser which is constantly updated, and that it was created / maintained by a SINGLE PERSON.

So, it's a matter of having skilled people. As usual...
Quote:

Actually, I think Odyssey is in a better state. It actually has an Amiga native UI, even if it is MUI, and is still updated. Timberwolf, OTOH, was a proof of concept.

Well, this PoC was PAYED! So, are you telling that people that financed it were cheated?
Quote:

It technically worked but didn't have a real Amiga interface.

What do you expect? It's normal in the OS4 land.

You're already used to interfaces instead of the single interface which Amiga introduced and founded everything on top.
You're used to the shared objects from Linux & co, which are completely alien to the Amiga o.s..
And you're used to bank switching to access more than 2GB or memory, like old 8-bit computers and even worse than 8086 segmented memory!

You're already using an alien o.s. compared to the one which we were used at the Amiga time...

@paolone

Quote:

paolone wrote: @Hypex Dozens of AROS developers took 20 years to reach a good reimplementation of OS 3.1 plus the necessary modernizations here and there, while Apollo team took much lesser time to strip its M68K flavour to let it properly target classic hardware. The question is why, WHY, and again W-H-Y some one else should DO IT AGAIN AND AGAIN, just in order to keep it closed into a commercial version that will NEVER EVER recoup the time and the money needed to do a proper job. AmigaOS 4 isn't even able to pay its developers, let alone the 3.2 version that's been brought to light with volounteer efforts. Classic retrogaming market barely lets getting some money from new games, while the so-called NG market is far smaller and just too much vertical to keep itself alive. So why are these little companies still beating the damn dead horse sooo sickly? To be able to sell another half working pricey and shamefully underpowered PPC machine in... 10 years? really? Sorry to say that, but if you're looking for the people who killed the Amiga, well, they are exactly the ones who are struggling to 'keep it alive'. Let it go like sane dead companies did (amstrad, sinclair, commodore for the 8 bit machines...) and maybe it could flourish again as a retrogaming platform. If AmigaOS sources were published and GPLed 20 years ago, maybe today we'd already have had a modern reimplementation running anywhere.

I FULLY AGREE!

P.S. Besides for the GPL.

@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote: @Hypex [quote] Hypex wrote: [...] I prefer GPU accelerated web browser experience, and many users weren't happy when AMD released unstable 2017-era and early 2018 GPU drivers for 1st gen mobile Ryzen APUs that resulted in BSOD with Google Chrome and Microsoft Edge Chromium. Pure CPU focus wasn't the original Amiga's idealogy.

Right. But it should have been made much better: there were a lot of bad design decisions for the Amiga chipset, which crippled it.

@MEGA_RJ_MICAL


Still better than transorbital Lobotomy! May the Cemetarys judge!

RIP Madhouse Patients, Doctors and Staff!

Tune in to everyday Fury in Worlds Slaughterhouses!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEkc70ztOrc

Last edited by QBit on 13-May-2022 at 08:20 AM.
Last edited by QBit on 13-May-2022 at 08:17 AM.
Last edited by QBit on 13-May-2022 at 08:14 AM.

@cdimauro

Quote:

Right. But it should have been made much better: there were a lot of bad design decisions for the Amiga chipset, which crippled it.

Right: cost/benefit and technology/era wise, they proved to be the best decisions Miner & co. COULD take. Problem is: time lasts and situations CHANGE. When situations change, cost/benefit ratio changes as well, and peole should understand why, change attitude, and stop fighting change.

deleted it all quoting got messed up.
mod, delete the post if you can.

Last edited by V8 on 13-May-2022 at 12:22 PM.