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      /  Ray tracing for the masses
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Poll : Where will we see standard hardware ray tracing support for the masses first?
Only Amiga makes it possible
Samsung will lead the way for smart phones
The Raspberry Pi Foundation is the new Amiga
Ray tracing is a gimmick
2D Amiga support is adequate for ray tracing
Amiga is for the classes not the masses now
Food shortages calls for Pancakes instead
 
PosterThread
Karlos 
Re: Ray tracing for the masses
Posted on 5-Jun-2022 19:40:25
#21 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4394
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@kolla

Nah, those are mostly post process. Maybe caustics or something.

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matthey 
Re: Ray tracing for the masses
Posted on 5-Jun-2022 20:46:57
#22 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1968
From: Kansas

Karlos Quote:

I think the poll lacks relevance. Realtime ray tracing is a bit niche just now, for high end PCs (and latest consoles) but will be a mainstream feature in a hardware generation or two at most.


Did you read the article? Realtime ray tracing IP can be licensed today for a SoC and there are chips in development using the technology. This is not high end ray tracing for expensive and power hungry desktop GPUs but low power "in a mobile power budget" integrated GPUs in SoCs that can be relatively cheap. We are likely talking 40W or less and the SoC ASIC chip can likely be produced for less than $20 with devices potentially reaching sub $100. This is mass production territory and not niche. Making standard hardware using ray tracing requires the foresight to see it coming and beating the competition to market to benefit from it. The first devices will likely be smart phones but there is an opportunity for a Raspberry Pi like device and/or low end console, perhaps with retro compatibility and ray tracing roots like the Amiga, to make an impact.

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Karlos 
Re: Ray tracing for the masses
Posted on 5-Jun-2022 20:58:19
#23 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4394
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@matthey

Raytracing on mobile is what I mean when say "in a generation or two it'll be mainstream". More people today have a mobile as their main or sole computing device. Gaming on mobile now accounts for maybe half the total industry.

However, I still maintain that the visual impact of raytracing in games, with a few transformative exceptions for older titles, has been a bit muted. Who has time to take in the realtime reflections when getting shot at from 5 different directions? Look at that amazing natural occlusion darkening. Oh wait, respawn. The indirect lighting in this room is... Respawn....

FWIW, generally in competitive games against bots or other humans I tend to find I turn everything down to maximum potato mode so that it's easy to discern dangerous moving things at a distance from harmless decoration. The only time I do the opposite is in single player games where I want immersion.

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R-TEAM 
Re: Ray tracing for the masses
Posted on 6-Jun-2022 17:36:12
#24 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Jan-2004
Posts: 271
From: Germany

REAL Time RayTracing on Unity .... TODAY (for PC) ->
https://blog.unity.com/news/introducing-enemies-the-latest-evolution-in-high-fidelity-digital-humans-from-unity

and .... i realy dont comment anything with Amiga and Raytracing in sense .. as it make no sense anymore ...

Last edited by R-TEAM on 06-Jun-2022 at 05:37 PM.
Last edited by R-TEAM on 06-Jun-2022 at 05:36 PM.

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cdimauro 
Re: Ray tracing for the masses
Posted on 6-Jun-2022 20:10:36
#25 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3621
From: Germany

@QBit

Quote:

QBit wrote:
@cdimauro

Who cares!

Weren't you supposed to IGNORE me?

Do you love me? It looks like that you cannot live without me.

@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:
even more than 4GB only for graphic memory. Amiga has a 2GB full address space limit.


A-eon/Hans was able to bypass this for their 3D drivers.

Do you mean that they use the 8-bit style bank switching mechanism to access it?

Or, are you referring to the ancient AGP aperture size (which works similarly: you've a fixed memory area that you use to systematically map portions of the video memory for the CPU)?

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cdimauro 
Re: Ray tracing for the masses
Posted on 6-Jun-2022 20:33:08
#26 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3621
From: Germany

@matthey

Quote:

matthey wrote:
cdimauro Quote:

Amiga has no chance at all for raytracing (in general: not only for the masses).

Ray tracing requires a HUGE computational power -> A LOT of cores. Amiga is strictly a mono-core system.

What were the copper and blitter in the mono-core Amiga system?

Sure. However here I was referring to the processor's cores.
Quote:
What is a gfx card for the Amiga using many shader cores?

An alien? It would be a completely different component inside an Amiga.
Quote:
cdimauro Quote:

Modern assets requires also a HUGE space -> even more than 4GB only for graphic memory. Amiga has a 2GB full address space limit.

It is easy enough to use the other 2GB of Amiga address space even with a 32 bit CPU and no PAE like address space accesses or MMU tricks. The Elbox Mediator makes use of the normally unused 2GB and other expansions likely do also. It is true that a 32 bit address space can be limiting for all but the lowest end gfx hardware. It is also true that the AmigaOS requires 32 bit pointers in many structures for compatibility.

Using the upper 2GB of the 4GB address space requires some tricks, and it could be used "safely" from the o.s., but not by generic applications.

The Amiga, as a general ecosystem, is only 31-bit, if we want to have full compatibility.
Quote:
I believe much of the AmigaOS can be kept in 32 bit address space while great benefit can be obtained from 64 bit addressing.

Only if you use something like the 8-bit bank switching to access the memory beyond 2GB.
Quote:
This may seem like too much of a limitation but it has the benefit of reducing the AmigaOS footprint as well as maintaining compatibility.

There's limited benefit. Only for something like RAM: or RAD: and, in general, for filesystems' data-blocks caching. And something like data (o.s. data which isn't normally and directly accessible from applications).

Applications have substantially no benefit from it.
Quote:
Quote:
cdimauro [quote]
So, really, no chance.

I would say the Amiga situation and leadership are more of a problem than hardware limitations but we still may arrive at the same conclusion.

I think that in this case there are no leadership issues. It's only about the Amiga platform, itself, which has problems.
Quote:
Polls allow everyone to express opinions.

Sure. Nothing to say about that, of course.
Quote:
Not many people have voted because I expect the poll makes Amiga users feel uncomfortable. They would like to vote what they want from the Amiga but the honest expectation is that Amiga hardware will never be for the masses (mass produced and cost reduced) or a technology leader again.

Indeed.
Quote:
The poll is still better than the useless polls recently and makes people think about something they are interested in.

Absolutely! In the last period this forum is infested by non-sense/non-brainer garbage...
Quote:
Have you detached yourself so far from the Amiga that you do not feel the turmoil?

I don't feel any turmoil, because I don't see any difference here from several years.

BTW, I haven't detached from the Amiga. Rather, I've detached myself from the Amiga fanaticism (I was an Amiga Taliban). In general, I've detached from any fanaticism.

After 40 years tinkering & working in computer science / IT, I'm mature-enough to dismiss / dismantle any tech-non-sense which derives from pure fanaticism.

I'm atheist from several years, so I don't see why I shouldn't apply the same logic / methodology to criticize the technology and, especially, technology-related stuff which is written by people.

As I've said several times, religion is the big problem. Unfortunately it applies / happens to technology as well as flying pink unicorns and similar entities. And here in the Amiga land this is quite common...

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