@Bosanac

Quote:

Bosanac wrote: @cdimauro I'll state this once more. You are a 51 year old man who is a wage slave for someone else. You seem to make up for your lack of achievement in life by calling other people on the internet idiots, particularly teenage kids who at the time were LEARNING with limited resources and creating things to the best of their abilities. Despite being called out on this several times, you have doubled down on it and still continue to refer to very talented kids as idiots. As to your last point, you really don't want to play who has the biggest dick/achieved more in life with me, my aim isn't to humiliate you.

Repeating the same things like a parrot will not make them true: you already got my replies for everything, and they still apply (since you had nothing to rebut them. In fact, you replied to nothing).

For the rest, it doesn't require a PhD in philosophy to understand that I've just shared my PoV about a specific argument.

You don't agree? No problem! But why do you continue to argue? Did you fill touched? This is the only thing which could explain your rage...

BTW, I've the same position with the doping: to me all people which do doping are stupid idiots.

Do you see it? It's the same thing! Do you have something to also defend those waste of Mother Nature?

@cdimauro

Quote:

Repeating the same things like a parrot will not make them true: you already got my replies for everything, and they still apply (since you had nothing to rebut them. In fact, you replied to nothing). For the rest, it doesn't require a PhD in philosophy to understand that I've just shared my PoV about a specific argument. You don't agree? No problem! But why do you continue to argue? Did you fill touched? This is the only thing which could explain your rage... BTW, I've the same position with the doping: to me all people which do doping are stupid idiots. Do you see it? It's the same thing! Do you have something to also defend those waste of Mother Nature?

Yes, you've made it quite clear that you think kids are stupid because they don't know what you claim to know as an adult.

Question is why? Why does it bother you so much that kids don't do what you want them to do?

@Bosanac

Quote:

Bosanac wrote: @cdimauro Quote: Repeating the same things like a parrot will not make them true: you already got my replies for everything, and they still apply (since you had nothing to rebut them. In fact, you replied to nothing). For the rest, it doesn't require a PhD in philosophy to understand that I've just shared my PoV about a specific argument. You don't agree? No problem! But why do you continue to argue? Did you fill touched? This is the only thing which could explain your rage... BTW, I've the same position with the doping: to me all people which do doping are stupid idiots. Do you see it? It's the same thing! Do you have something to also defend those waste of Mother Nature? Yes, you've made it quite clear that you think kids are stupid because they don't know what you claim to know as an adult. Question is why? Why does it bother you so much that kids don't do what you want them to do?

It's only YOU that talked about kids and children, dear liar...

@cdimauro

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It’s only YOU that talked about kids and children, dear liar...

Demo coders in the 80s and 90s WERE CHILDREN AT THE TIME!

Are you really that dense?

I’ll ask you again, why does it bother you so much that you feel the urge to publicly insult kids on a regular basis?

@Bosanac

Quote:

Bosanac wrote: @cdimauro Quote: It’s only YOU that talked about kids and children, dear liar... Demo coders in the 80s and 90s WERE CHILDREN AT THE TIME!

Me too! I was a teenager as I've already reported.

Anyway, it doesn't matter: see below.
Quote:

Are you really that dense? I’ll ask you again, why does it bother you so much that you feel the urge to publicly insult kids on a regular basis?

OK, before children and now kids: next time babies?

I've already explained my position, but it looks that the Nature was a bad stepmother with you.

What's not clear to you about this:

It's just a boolean thing: either you followed the Commodore's guidelines or not. Nothing special about that and age wasn't relevant here.

?

@cdimauro

Teenagers==Children==Kids

Now why does it bother you so much as a 51 year old loner that they didn’t do what you claim to do?

@Bosanac

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Bosanac wrote: @cdimauro Teenagers==Children==Kids Now why does it bother you so much as a 51 year old loner that they didn’t do what you claim to do?

In fact, I don't care.

I know: it's difficult for you, even after that I've explained in multiple ways...

@cdimauro

You clearly do care because you can’t stop.

Sad, lonely, low achiever, fantasist.

Recipe for disaster.

@Bosanac

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Bosanac wrote: @cdimauro You clearly do care because you can’t stop. Sad, lonely, low achiever, fantasist. Recipe for disaster.

Ah, that why you're still here. Let me quote a "friend":

"You clearly do care because you can’t stop.

Sad, lonely, low achiever, fantasist.

Recipe for disaster"



Logic, logic, logic... your enemy.

@cdimauro

Still waiting to find out why it bothers you that other people don’t do what you want.

Must be a laugh a minute for your wife and kids around you eh?

@Bosanac

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Bosanac wrote: @cdimauro Still waiting to find out why it bothers you that other people don’t do what you want.

https://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=44581&forum=15&start=320&viewmode=flat&order=0#855076
https://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=44581&forum=15&start=320&viewmode=flat&order=0#855086
https://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=44581&forum=15&start=320&viewmode=flat&order=0#855105
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Must be a laugh a minute for your wife and kids around you eh?

Nobody is around me, because I'm in my office (Arbeitzimmer), but maybe they heard my laughs.

@Karlos

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Are you talking about the PHP demo engine? I create a process for Sox or APlay and pipe the audio as it's generated into it.

Yes I was.

Thanks for the detailed explanation.

It does sound quite advanced and makes my own projects seem rather average by comparison.

@cdimauro

I seem to constantly put things in a way you misunderstand yet the conversation remains polite.

Quote:

This method requires jump tables for each Kickstart version. And if you've new Kickstart versions then you need to update the slave.

The jump tables are already there. Exec base, Intuition base, etc. Just need to redirect a direct ROM routine call into using an API call. They would need to be patched to call into a soft kick in any case. I don't know how many calls on average would be made or if they go beyond exec routines. Being most eventually took over the system so I can't imagine there being many.

Quote:

No, I don't think so: it's too much complicated and it also worked only on a few, expensive, Amiga configurations whereas the slaves are supposed to be used almost everywhere (with a bit more memory needed compared to what was required by the original).

Yes, that's what I expected.

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Awesome! I've forgotten this beautiful song. Thanks for let me listen again!!!

Cool. I must have a musical memory. I can be in conversation and half a dozen songs can pop into my head. My brain is like an MMU, a particular phrasing of words will trigger it, and a reference will come to mind.

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Nice experience. This made me recall of another project which I've realized with an Amiga: a Jukebox. You know how it works: you put some coins, select the song (or video), and start playing it.

The thought of an Amiga jukebox will have Amiga people salivating.

Quote:

The software was initially developed by the main coder of Fightin' Spirit, but he gave up the project. I took part of the source code which was controlling the 6 CD players and the Laservideo (sending signals to them which "pressed" their buttons) and I've rewritten everything else. My musician (which was also a coder) realized the Copper list for showing 4 times a short video from Michael Jackson when the song was playing (just to show something on the screen in the meanwhile).

Now that sounds like cool copper list.

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I kept the sources and only gave the binary (well, a complete disk to be inserted on an A600). I got nothing for the work, but my musician had one Laservideo (which was quite expensive at the time). It was a good experience, anyway: I also like to do some embedded work.

An A600 would be a compact controller. More so if the board was stripped. Seen a few Amiga boards purposed into a custom case, usually A1200, in rack mount.

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Same for me: I missed the 121 colours of my Plus 4. However if I've switched to the C128 only for the immense C64's software library; otherwise I've kept the +4 (I really liked the machine. And the look, especially: wonderful!).

The cursor diamond looks useful. I've got two Plus/4s now. The first never worked as the board had been stripped I found and IIRC lacked PSU as well. The second never worked because of a dead Ted or CPU. I shorted out my original C16 when examining the expansion port. Dad bought me an A500 a following Christmas. Since then I've acquired two more C16s. One I bought from work experience in a computer shop with the wages I earned, or wasted, for 50 bucks. Years later I was playing Goldrush at the Amiga club, when I walked away for a moment, then stepped back to find the CPU had fired while I turned away. I searched for parts online, found a Ted and CPU I couldn't get going, but a friend found another C16 for me. In working order, that I upgraded with a -working- 64KB expansion, and SD2IEC. I tried a 64KB cartridge expansion but it was flaky.

Oh. Here's another song. I wanna be a cowboy, Could this be an ode to the C16 and Plus/4? (And C116 for that matter.) I think of the last line. "My name is Ted, and one day I'll be dead, yoyo." Well, that day came soon after.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wWySln4sY0

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I know only one Amiga geek girl with that name.

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Last fresh example: http://apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=4¬e=39085&z=YFyVwU

I know the forum there. Was that meant to go to a direct thread? It brings up Apollo sub forum.

Here Gunnar also claims that AMMX is much faster than ALTIVEC. Well, the average AltiVec on a G4, could be running on a base CPU clock of 500Mhz on an old Mac laptop with 1.5 Ghz common on newer models. The AmigaOne XE G4 was 800Mhz. X1000 with G5 class-like CPU is 1.8Ghz. The base clock of 68080 would be lower but actual real speed or time is what matters. So if AMMX is much faster than ALTIVEC it really needs to be much faster than ALTIVEC to even be faster than AltiVec!

http://apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=4¬e=38817

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Despite the claims, it cannot match even a low-end AmigaOne or SAM.

Since a Sam lacks AltVec, AMMX would be much, much faster in vector ops.

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The only contender in this case is the PiStorm with Emu68.

In comparison it almost seems like a brute force method. By emulating a 68K CPU inside another CPU. Plugged into an Amiga. So poor is the 68K state of affairs that people are emulating it in inside an embedded SoC configured to plug into the CPU slot of a 68K. But I actually expected this to happen one day. Thought someone might have tried with embedded x86 first. That would have stirred up the once Intel Outside Amiga community.

OTOH the Apollo core is using the Intel inspired AMMX in covert operations to convert the 68K into Intel Inside. They've infiltrated the base. Once Intel is Inside the Amiga the door will be locked and 68K kicked out.

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AFAIR my player (using my special mod format, which was quick to decode and taking less space in memory) consumed around one raster line. Without polling. Without interrupts (everything was disabled and some strategic vectors filled with bad values, in order to generate an unrecoverable double-fault if some sly tried to use the Action Replay to dig into the code). And without using the CIAs.

Unheard of.

PT takes some work to extract notes from nibbles. MED is more direct and looks better with a less rigid design. But the MED player does weird stuff and pokes bad values into registers and then 3 frames later the sound properly starts playing.

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Depends on the adventure game. If it doesn't move so much then you can think about using a software mixer to have much more audio channels (a rich soundtrack is a big plus with those kind of games).

I was thinking of the type of game where it has as less CPU usage as possible.

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I saw it. However if you have a tracker then soft mixing is possible also on a plain A500. But on a game... not the case (except if there isn't that much graphic to move, like I've stated before).

My idea was less for games and more for general music making and playing. But an A500 would be too low a target I think on average. It has three levels, going from slow but memory optimised to fast but memory intensive. Modules could be stored in fast ram. But I never experimented with creating a test module format to see how practical it would be. Merging samples is the most I did which is one of the primitives in the idea.

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Ah, OK. Then it was possible, but using an extra, additional register. So, 8 sprites = 8 additional 16-bit registers. There was space on the original chipset, but not that much.

Or just dump it all to chip ram like the rest of the sprite data.

@bhabbott

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I don't need to have developed a commercial game to appreciate what challenges are involved. The simple truth is - it's only as challenging as you make it.

I thought it was as challenging as it is.

You make it sound like you pick how hard the challenges are. I'm not aware of being able to pick a difficulty of challenges as opposed to to picking a challenge which has an own level of difficulty.

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Compared to other home computers of the day the Amiga's powers were awesome - but they weren't unlimited. You can play 4 channels of PCM sound with very little overhead. That means you can play background music on 3 channels and have another channel spare for spot sound effects (gunfire, explosions etc.). But that's too limiting for Amiga fans. They want multiple sound effects at the same time. So...

It doesn't matter what they want. It's up to the coder to program it. They get what's delivered to them.

But I would expect music on two channels and effects on the others to be more balanced. If two are playing at the same time. Sometimes it was title music then game sounds. Indeed, before trackers took over, full music could be playing on two tracks in stereo leaving two channels for sounds. Some early games like Thunderboy had realistic music with no channel limits imposed, but the music needed to be shorter, since recordings take up space.

Quote:

Audio Mixing for Games example + source

So read through the details. It is a limited mixer with only static mixing. So no frequency variation or volumes supported. I thought it was rather quirky the HQ mode as it cuts off distortion with a limiter which will make the sound flat. The standard mode correctly bakes any volume levels into the samples at reduction in dynamic range and works like OctaMED did. I don't like the idea of halving before the mix and think division should be after. But at the end of the day samples need to scaled down. This happens with every CD recording and modern music production. They just process samples in decimal. The problem of course being the 8 bit output. 16 bit would provide more headroom with more range. But at that point it goes beyond using as less CPU time as possible. Still, 9 bit or 14 bit modes for a software mixer would allow more range, so less possible distortion. Except in 14 bit there a volume loss and the maximum output is half what it could be.

Compared with my idea mentioned, even for simple mixing of samples, the memory requirement would be exponential. Taking 4 samples merged into one, my mixer would almost need 16 times as much space for a pre rendered sample, accounting for all possible mixing variations. 4 samples needing 15 times one sample size. 15 combinations and none. With any volume levels baked in and/or variation in frequencies the storage is even worse.

But, my idea would surely be less than what a whole rendered song would usually take, since it would be based on structural compression. Blocking the song up into segments of sound events. And only storing sample differences.

@cdimauro

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If you got the original version that you had troubles anyway, since it required Slow RAM(see above).

Now sure. May have grabbed it off Aminet or likely on a coverdisk if it was featured.

What I do recall is the drive. My Amiga club got a stack of Amiga A1200 Magic Packs. Left over from a local casino that used Amigas as the hardware for pokie machines. They took the Amiga board out and didn't use the rest. So they had packs with new case, floppy drive and all software. I must have had floppy trouble or just wanted a fresh drive so I swapped the new one in place. I immediately had more "AGA" troubles with some games and demos failing to load. The new Escom drive being the cause. Drive ready went missing.

There's an AGA version here. But it doesn't say exactly what is fixed. It only mentions track loaders which looks to be related to my problem.

http://aminet.net/package/demo/file/MST-SOTA

@Hypex

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Hypex wrote: @Karlos Quote: Are you talking about the PHP demo engine? I create a process for Sox or APlay and pipe the audio as it's generated into it. Yes I was. Thanks for the detailed explanation. It does sound quite advanced and makes my own projects seem rather average by comparison.

To be honest it stated off as a project to understand the problem domain better. I have another repo that has a less efficient version that I explored the whole concept of creating a software synth from scratch. It's called GIMPS (Grossly Impractical PHP Modular Synthesiser). This could make sounds but not play a sequence. I took the learnings from that and built a slightly leaner and more musically focused version to allow me to add realtime music to the PDE project. The source code for them both is on GitHub.

PDE music engine: https://github.com/0xABADCAFE/php-demo-engine/tree/main/src/audio

GIMPS: https://github.com/0xABADCAFE/random-proto-synth

I do plan to port the units created for PDE to C to be used as virtual sound chips for the MC64K project at some point.

I should also add that I approached from the pure synthesis side rather than sampling but the music sequencer is very much like a tracker.

Last edited by Karlos on 27-Sep-2022 at 10:43 AM.

_________________
Doing stupid things for fun...

@cdimauro

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cdimauro wrote: The page states only OCS/ECS: it says nothing about 1MB Chip RAM. Which isn't working, anyway: Whereas just adding 512kB of Slow RAM (like I did with the A4000) worked...

From https://files.scene.org/get/parties/1992/theparty92/amiga/demo/spb-sota.dms



"State of the Art by Spaceballs" worked my WinUAE's A500 with ECS Agnus 1MB chip ram

Last edited by Hammer on 27-Sep-2022 at 10:54 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 27-Sep-2022 at 10:53 AM.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@Hypex

Quote:

Here Gunnar also claims that AMMX is much faster than ALTIVEC. Well, the average AltiVec on a G4, could be running on a base CPU clock of 500Mhz on an old Mac laptop with 1.5 Ghz common on newer models. The AmigaOne XE G4 was 800Mhz. X1000 with G5 class-like CPU is 1.8Ghz. The base clock of 68080 would be lower but actual real speed or time is what matters. So if AMMX is much faster than ALTIVEC it really needs to be much faster than ALTIVEC to even be faster than AltiVec!

Gunnar has forgotten that clock speed is part of the design feature list for the CPU.

I'm still waiting for Vampire V4's Quake demo3 benchmark result that match (or exceed) this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJwdColUxUs
PiStorm/RPI 3a+/Emu68 running Quake demo3 benchmark that is about Pentium II 266/300 level.

For 3D, 64-bit integer-only SIMD is restricted when compared to two packed FP32 64-bit 3DNow or PowerPC Gekko's 64-bit SIMD or Intel's 128-bit SSE (Pentium III has 64-bit SSE hardware implementation until Core 2's true 128-bit SSE hardware).

Altivec/VMX supports quad-packed FP32 and these are implemented in 128-bit SIMD hardware.


Altivec derived CELL SPE instruction set capability
Sony(SCEA)'s study paper on "Deferred Pixel Shading on the Playstation 3" and comparative performance to Geforce 7800 GTX. Can be found from http://research.scea.com/ps3_deferred_shading.pdf

Quote

D. Comparison to GeForce 7800 GTX GPU

We implemented the same algorithm on a high end state of
the art GPU, the NVIDIA GeForce 7800 GTX running in a
Linux workstation. This GPU has 24 fragment shader
pipelines running at 430 Mhz and processes 24 fragments
in parallel. By comparison the 5 SPEs that we used process
20 pixels in parallel in quad-SIMD form.

The GeForce required 11.1 ms to complete the shading
operation. In comparison the Cell/B.E. required 11.65 ms
including the DMA waiting time

--------------
5 SPEs (with DMA) is roughly equivalent to Geforce 7800 GTX's pixel shader power.

Vampire V4 will NOT match Sony's PS3!

GeForce 7800 GTX's pixel shader power was largely obsolete by GeForce 8600 GT's pixel shader power let alone GeForce 8800 GTX. https://www.techspot.com/review/51-nvidia-geforce-8600/page3.html

I can't believe I defended the PowerPC camp.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@Hammer

AMMX is designed to highly increase the performance of the CPU for certain heavy workloads.
The workloads which AMMX is designed for are:

* accelerate 2D Grafik operations
all types of copying / "Blitting", and very important Softsprite operations
* Alpha Blending
* Grafik conversions 16/32/truecolor
* Video decoding
* Planar to Chunky or reverse Conversion

For any of these workloads using AMMX does give a tremendous performance boost over using "normal" 68K Code.

AMMX is more efficient than Altivec for these workloads

@Gunnar

1. Focus on speeding up the primary 68K instruction set and add 68K MMU. AMMX extension does nothing for existing 68K software.

PiStorm/Emu68's MMU is nearly working.

68K MMU also gives you Linux credibility (via Linux68K) for markets outside the Amiga.

2. Hardware accelerates the functions from open-source Wazp3D. This would enable any future Apollo-Core FPGA SoC to run the existing 68K Quake III (ID Tech 3 engine) OpenGL at playable frame rates.

Last edited by Hammer on 27-Sep-2022 at 01:48 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 27-Sep-2022 at 01:41 PM.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)