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GadgetMaster 
Re: Don't "rainbow-wash" me bro!
Posted on 8-Jul-2022 16:35:26
#241 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 26-Dec-2002
Posts: 603
From: TrustVille

@Karlos

Alan must be Turing in his grave.

Quote:

Karlos wrote:
@BigD

I genuinely don't think there's an actual belief in a gay gene among these particular Ideologues because that would anchor sexual preference in biology and they already don't accept that gender is rooted in biology.

Ironically, if there were a gay gene, the push to transform kids that have any such confusion to undergo a transition, beginning with puberty suppression and finally surgical alteration is a sure fire way to make sure it isn't passed on, seeing as they won't reach sexual maturation before their reproductive systems are destroyed.

Sterilisation of potential gays before maturation. Suddenly doesn't sound so fecking inclusive, does it? More like eugenics.

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Karlos 
Re: Don't "rainbow-wash" me bro!
Posted on 8-Jul-2022 17:32:03
#242 ]
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Posts: 2763
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@GadgetMaster

I do wonder what someone like Alan Turing would make of it all. He was given a similar class of drugs to chemically castrate him as an alternative to a prison sentence for his crime (under the laws of the time) of being gay that are now given to children to delay puberty. Some of whom may not be suffering from gender identity issues at all (but may be gay). Even those who genuinely have some dysphoria, is it not better to at least try and see if the dysphoria itself has an underlying cause before putting someone on an irreversible trajectory in life?

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bison 
Re: Don't "rainbow-wash" me bro!
Posted on 8-Jul-2022 19:48:12
#243 ]
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Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 2088
From: N-Space

@thread

Checkmate, Christians: 9 Absolute Proofs God Doesn't Exist

Proof number ten: Lennart Poettering went to work for Microsoft.

Last edited by bison on 08-Jul-2022 at 07:51 PM.

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BigD 
Re: Don't "rainbow-wash" me bro!
Posted on 8-Jul-2022 19:55:27
#244 ]
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Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 6472
From: UK

@bison

So I guess you haven't accepted that a belief in God is a faith position then?

Suddenly apologetics is raised to a science and we have invented 4D goggles and equivalent GPS system to perfectly map the spiritual realm! Good to know!

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kolla 
Re: Don't "rainbow-wash" me bro!
Posted on 8-Jul-2022 23:06:11
#245 ]
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Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 2202
From: Trondheim, Norway

@Karlos

Is this gender stuff an anglo-american problem? Can it have roots in what the dictionaries say about the word “woman”?

In my native language, this really isn’t something that has occurred, afaik, but we do already have different terms for biological woman (kvinne, and at hospitals we have kvinneklinikker etc) and several others for the broader womanhood (kvinnfolk). Also we don’t use the word for woman (kvinne) in context of servants etc. as is rather common in English, or possessive “my woman”. We rather say “my better half”, or “my wife”, “my partner” etc. To say “min kvinne” sounds quite neanderthal/lowbrow already.

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kolla 
Re: Don't "rainbow-wash" me bro!
Posted on 8-Jul-2022 23:27:29
#246 ]
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Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 2202
From: Trondheim, Norway

@BigD

Believing in god has nothing to do with believing you. Faith is a constant search, and is a healthy activity. Religion is the opposite, it is pretending the answer has been found already, and isn’t really leading to anything good. Hypothetically, what if all people on the planet were good christians, as by your definition? Mission accomplished? And then what?

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BigD 
Re: Don't "rainbow-wash" me bro!
Posted on 8-Jul-2022 23:41:08
#247 ]
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Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 6472
From: UK

@kolla

1) They wouldn't be 'good' Christians but instead 'justified' Christians made righteous through Christ and Christ alone not their own actions. They would be sanctified daily to be more like Jesus but their life would be a journey of worshiping and serving Christ sacrificially. Our society would benefit and spiritual revival and repentance would return. Men would stand and nurture and protect their families and women would honour and support their husbands without ruling over them (if they're married)! Single people would embrace their calling rather than be taught to resent it and the wider church would support them in their Apostle Paul calling to serve God with a whole heart.

All this would be for the benefit of Christian and non-Christian alike, we might even support and love our single friends, stop killing babies as a society and promote and support marriage as we have done in the past. Maybe we'd pay more than a passing care about how our neighbours, lonely elderly relatives or isolated acquaintances were doing and maybe our communities would thrive rather than just hanging on by a thread waiting for a 'Mad Max' future!

2) Q. And then what? Ans: Heaven and an eternity serving and worshiping God with no more pain and suffering.... then it's mission accomplished!

Last edited by BigD on 09-Jul-2022 at 12:08 AM.
Last edited by BigD on 09-Jul-2022 at 12:05 AM.
Last edited by BigD on 09-Jul-2022 at 12:02 AM.
Last edited by BigD on 09-Jul-2022 at 12:00 AM.

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Karlos 
Re: Don't "rainbow-wash" me bro!
Posted on 9-Jul-2022 0:03:08
#248 ]
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Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 2763
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@kolla

Quote:
Is this gender stuff an anglo-american problem? Can it have roots in what the dictionaries say about the word “woman”


Unsure, to be honest. It definitely seems to be prevalent in predominantly English-speaking westernised countries. For me, it's genuinely frightening to think there are biologically female doctors that can't define what a "woman" is while being perfectly happy to begin the process of transitioning your child into one.

On the subject of women's "safe spaces", comedian Ricky Gervais has nailed it with a bit of toilet humour... https://youtu.be/yI6qvQtrTU8 (strong language)

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agami 
Re: Don't "rainbow-wash" me bro!
Posted on 9-Jul-2022 3:20:57
#249 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1010
From: Melbourne, Australia

@GadgetMaster

Quote:
Why follow fictional characters when you can follow historical ones that actually existed?

I wouldn't. That's why I prefaced my statement with " If ".

I'm not the "following" type. But were I to follow any singular person, they would be someone from a much more recent, and independently corroborated account of history.

Last edited by agami on 09-Jul-2022 at 03:57 AM.

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agami 
Re: Don't "rainbow-wash" me bro!
Posted on 9-Jul-2022 3:55:58
#250 ]
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Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1010
From: Melbourne, Australia

I see most of you are conflating sex, sexual preference/orientation, and gender.
While there is an influencing factor from one to the other, they are distinct in how they are formed:
- Sex, a.k.a biological sex, is based on genetics. It is expressed through the reproductive organs
- Sexual preference/orientation is based on limbic brain chemistry. It is expressed as the attraction to, or arousal by other persons or objects. We often colloquially use terms such as 'chemistry' or 'magnetism'.
- Gender is a social construct. It is determined by the persons role in the social fabric of nurturing the next generation of humans.

Like with most things in reality, phenomena follow a bell curve.
In simple social structures such as hunter-gatherers, agrarian/rural, and other smaller clusters of population, there is little to no expression of the fringe parts of the bell. In such environments, sexual orientation closely follows biological sex, and the simpler social fabric has genders that closely follow sexual orientation.

In complex social structures such as cities, the larger population yields more pronounced fringes of the bell. The diversity of sexual orientation is more visible and there is a less than 1:1 correlation with biological sex. Also, the complex social fabric has many more roles than simply breadwinner and housewife. Here too there is a compounding diversification of alignment of gender to sexual orientation.

The trend in most countries is that the majority of its population are living in cities. So why should the complexity and nuances of gender and sexual orientation, as experienced by the majority of the population, be defined by the simple models of the minority of the population.

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Karlos 
Re: Don't "rainbow-wash" me bro!
Posted on 9-Jul-2022 7:24:02
#251 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 2763
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@agami

Quote:

- Sex, a.k.a biological sex, is based on genetics. It is expressed through the reproductive organs


Agree. Although there are subtleties to this that your overly simplistic definition overlooks, such as intersex, where both sets of reproductive organs may exist at the same time. In any case, a person's sex is a quantifiable and quantifiable property, grounded in biology.

Quote:

- Sexual preference/orientation is based on limbic brain chemistry. It is expressed as the attraction to, or arousal by other persons or objects. We often colloquially use terms such as 'chemistry' or 'magnetism'.


Agree. You will note that where the preference pertains to other people, it is their sex (in your terminology) that is generally the main determinant. A heterosexual is attracted to the opposite sex, whereas a homosexual is attracted to the same sex. Again this is generally an observable and quantifiable property. It is still a subject of some debate as to how much this is biological in origin. It may well arise as some emergent outcome of multiple genetic factors but I'm skeptical of the idea there's a "gay gene", per se. Time will tell on that.

Quote:

- Gender is a social construct. It is determined by the persons role in the social fabric of nurturing the next generation of humans.


Agree, but not with your basic definition. Gender as a construct is true, insofar as it is a term invented by sexologist John Money. He used it to define the traits and behaviours associated with biological sex.

This is the same John Money who experimented on vulnerable children to further his thesis on gender identity. When, as a baby, David Reimer was mutilated in a botched circumcision, it was John Money who convinced his parents to "convert" their son into Brenda (surgically) and oversaw the process. The same John Money who hailed the process a success and pushed his own unsubstantiated idea that gender as a malleable proxy for biological sex forwards. This, despite the fact that even with the complicity of "her" family in maintaining the illusion that Brenda had always been a girl, was not. David "transitioned" back to being male at the age of 15 and in adulthood went public with his story in the hope that it might prevent the same process being applied to other children. David Reimer, the man he was biologically destined to be, committed suicide at 38 after years of depression resulting from what happened to him. Yet on the basis of one sexologist's ultimately failed experiment in trying to convince him he was a girl in childhood, we now have a prevailing belief that "gender as a construct" is legitimate, espoused by people I doubt half of whom are even aware of the origin story for.

So, am I confused?

Last edited by Karlos on 09-Jul-2022 at 07:30 AM.

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BigD 
Re: Don't "rainbow-wash" me bro!
Posted on 9-Jul-2022 10:18:40
#252 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 6472
From: UK

@Karlos

That sounds crystal to me. I would add that too much credence is given to sexual preference which informs the dystopian city types' rational concerning their gender IMHO. If you watch enough hard core porn then things you were once repulsed by may 'turn you on' over time if regularly exposed to it. The law of diminishing returns applies with people needing more and more extreme material to get that excitement. I draw a direct parallel between that and the 'non-binary'/sexual experimentation brigade!

This fluid gender/sexual preference thing is just a weird way of defining a people group as it is based on compulsion and experimentation, something that it has in common with substance abuse. To compare sexual experimentation with sex within marriage (between a man and woman as is Biblical and hence the real definition) is a repulsive comparison IMHO and not something to be 'proud' of or to share with the world. Sex is private, 'designed' for marriage only and not something that informs your gender period.

P.S. I didn't have to experiment on vulnerable children to come to this conclusion so don't crucify me @agami for the lack of quack nazi-type 'science' to back it up!

Last edited by BigD on 09-Jul-2022 at 10:24 AM.
Last edited by BigD on 09-Jul-2022 at 10:21 AM.
Last edited by BigD on 09-Jul-2022 at 10:20 AM.

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Karlos 
Re: Don't "rainbow-wash" me bro!
Posted on 9-Jul-2022 11:03:15
#253 ]
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Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 2763
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@BigD

Homosexuality has at least been known and quantifiable for recorded human history. Attitudes towards it have varied by culture but nevertheless it's not something that can simply be ascribed to nurture. It has also been observed in other species. It likely has some biological basis. It may even be part of some biological continuum containing much more overt cases such as intersex.

People can say it's their personal choice, I have no axe to grind either way.

I do, however, question the very basis for "gender identity", especially in the context of transitioning children. Incepted, as it was, by a Mengle like figure that had no issues testing out his hypothesis on a child. A combined psychological / surgical experiment that ultimately failed and led to the suicide of the person, while somehow still accepted as valid.

If an adult human male or female chooses to identify differently than their biological sex, I'll use their pronouns and treat them with the basic civility and respect that ought to be any persons due right. However, I will not be coopted into accepting the shared delusion that their identification is somehow rooted in reality. Where their choice comes into conflict with needs of people that do not share their views, their rights must be upheld too. I do not think biological men, no matter how they identify, should have access to biological women's safe spaces. Biological men identifying as women may need their own safe spaces. As may biological women who identify as men. As may people who don't identify as either. Yes it complicates things but the root of that complication stems from the unwillingness to deal with objective reality.

Alternatively, people could get help understanding the root of their dysphoria. Dysphoria. I'm surprised the word hasn't been rainbow-washed into something more positive sounding yet.

If gender is truly a construct and one's identity is a product of the mind and not the body, then why do we not try harder to address it as such? Most mental health problems are dealt with through cognitive therapy of varying sorts. Rarely does the treatment involve indulging in the fantasy and rarer still does I involve life-altering surgical intervention. Kids young enough to think Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy are real don't have a sufficient grasp (IMNSHO) of reality and certainly not the lifetime consequences of allowing some ideologically indoctrinated practitioners to affirm their immature notions.

"But they'll self harm or even suicide if you don't transition them!" is a common trope among advocates for intervention, particularly among the young. Has anyone looked at the suicide rates among transitioned people relative to the baseline? It's almost as if there's some correlation with the notion that there's an unresolved mental health problem that sits there regardless of how they were modified. And no, it's not all down to bullying, non-acceptance by others or however else you want to present the case for an external oppressive force. There are minority other groups that face genuine prejudice the world over that don't show the same affinity for self-harm and suicide.

Despite the fact I have no issue with transgender individuals, I'm sure I'll be labelled a transphobic bigot for not blindly accepting the prevailing narrative around gender identity and having the temerity to question it.

Last edited by Karlos on 09-Jul-2022 at 11:43 AM.

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Karlos 
Re: Don't "rainbow-wash" me bro!
Posted on 9-Jul-2022 11:39:56
#254 ]
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Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 2763
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@BigD

Quote:
If you watch enough hard core porn then things you were once repulsed by may 'turn you on' over time if regularly exposed to it.


No doubt why I find myself wanting an Atari these days. A Falcon with a CT060, or maybe one of those Hades motherboards. Absolute smut.

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bison 
Re: Don't "rainbow-wash" me bro!
Posted on 10-Jul-2022 0:43:40
#255 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 2088
From: N-Space

@BigD

I'm currently in the fog of Covid, so I may be missing the nuances, but... you do realize that video is parody, don't you?

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pixie 
Re: Don't "rainbow-wash" me bro!
Posted on 10-Jul-2022 14:29:17
#256 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 2717
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@BigD

Quote:
I would add that too much credence is given to sexual preference which informs the dystopian city types' rational concerning their gender IMHO.

At which point have you set in stone your own sexual preference? Because as for myself, I've heard of all those talks about sexual preference being seen as an option we have, and I never felt I had any, and I would bet that most who treat it as option didn't experienced it as an option either, but since it is the other let's treat it differently, let's belittle the place of other.

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BigD 
Re: Don't "rainbow-wash" me bro!
Posted on 10-Jul-2022 14:59:44
#257 ]
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Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 6472
From: UK

@pixie

Even if people 'feel' like it's genetic or a product of circumstances lived out as child etc why should it even then be a primary factor in defining who we are?

It is similar to what 'choice' of car wax you decide to put on your car for example! You may say, "I 'feel' like Turtle Wax is the only choice for me! I'm hard wired to prefer Turtle Wax! I can't help the compulsion I feel to buy that brand when I smell its scent. I just can't help myself!"

All these statements, if used to frame our identity, are about as sane as suggesting we're defined by what we do with our sexual organs!

Some guidelines for sexual activity; keep it in the bedroom or at least out of view of voyeurs if you like the outdoors (no webcams please) and if you want to honour God keep it for marriage (between one man and one woman and that doesn't include remarriage if your spouse is still alive, as far as I read).

By all means do whatever you want (free will is given), but don't be 'proud' of 'Turtle Wax' and don't pretend God advertises for the company! Other brands are available and the only one worth anything in eternity is reserved for marriage so keep your favoured brand of 'car wax' to yourself!

Last edited by BigD on 10-Jul-2022 at 03:53 PM.
Last edited by BigD on 10-Jul-2022 at 03:52 PM.
Last edited by BigD on 10-Jul-2022 at 03:48 PM.
Last edited by BigD on 10-Jul-2022 at 03:01 PM.

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Karlos 
Re: Don't "rainbow-wash" me bro!
Posted on 11-Jul-2022 1:21:00
#258 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 2763
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@pixie

I think it's why the term "orientation" is preferred because, as you say, people don't tend to choose the type of person they are attracted to; they just are. As a complex system from biology to psychology, I suspect this orientation is influenced by a myriad of factors from genetic upwards. Something that develops over years and emerges to select the opposite biological sex in the majority of the population is "good enough" for species survival even if there's some minority subset of people in each generation that are left in a "non reproductively viable" state due to same sex attraction.

Even in this corner, the transgender debate whips up controversy. There was an article I'd read regarding lesbians that had been abused and ostracised for not wanting to have transgender women (fully biologically male) partners. Their recalcitrance was seen as transphobic and not in line with the wider LGBT#? community ideal.

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Amiga4000 
Re: Don't "rainbow-wash" me bro!
Posted on 15-Jul-2022 0:59:05
#259 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 5-Jan-2006
Posts: 293
From: The Ford Galaxy

You WILL be gay and you will get paid by Nintendo! Let's ALL be gay!

Nintendo Japan officially provides spousal benefits to same-sex partnerships

Reaction to the news was well received by Japanese netizens who felt that even though Nintendo is only one organization, a company with its influence has the potential to make similar policies spread.

“Does this mean they’ll bring same-sex marriage to Tomodachi Collection?”
“If the company changes their mindset, then it will be reflected in their games, which will influence the world over time.”
“That’s fantastic! Large companies like that often have extensive benefits for families.”
“Wonderful! I hope this spreads.”
“I’m really happy about this. Japan is moving in the right direction.”
“Opposition to same-sex marriage is irrational anyway.”
“I feel like Mario is on my side now.”

When does Amiga go GAY?

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kolla 
Re: Don't "rainbow-wash" me bro!
Posted on 15-Jul-2022 4:35:38
#260 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 2202
From: Trondheim, Norway

@Amiga4000

When CBM bought them up and ctreated the rainbow tick,

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